- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:10) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,11:24) We condemn the Quran because it teaches that God doesn't have a son. Jesus is the son of God. That is our faith. I am not sure that you should be allowed to post in this area. This is for believers, not those who do not believe.
You condemn the Quran firstly because of what it teaches? You can't just condemn it based upon its shoddy historical merits and revisionist history?What are the grounds on which you ripped 7 books out of the Bible?
What are the grounds on which you persist in rejecting the only verifiable Church Jesus founded?
Your Church does not see it that way.Also, is there really any need to condemn it at all? If you speak the truth and you have love, mercy and compassion would not your actions show the superiority of your belief? But if hate is offered and derision is cast how can you claim God at all with such a lack of love?
God demands Mercy not Sacrifice.
Islam teaches that God saved Jesus from the plot of the Jews but it is your firm belief that JESUS MUST DIE or had to have DIED for you to be Forgiven and yet God says He prefers Mercy over Sacrifice.
You want to be saved but you don't want your saviour to be saved?
I have already shown that blood sacrifice is not neccessary for atonement as proven by the Scapegoat
I would not even need to be a Muslim or a Christian to know that God is against any form of Human Sacrifice in-fact he says it is an abomination and he never even thought it:
Jeremiah 32 (King James Version)
35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
So you believe that after God commanded them not to sacrifice their children he sacrificed His own Son?
If he SACRIFICED HIS Son, what was the purpose of the Plot against him to have him Killed? Did God also set the plot in motion?
BD…….. Rom 5:9..> Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. and, .Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the Law purged with Blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Our sins go into remission because of the shed Blood of Christ, the Lamb of GOD.
Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law in our place. Your failure of recognizing the sacrifice of Jesus for out sins is a failure to recognize his atoning work on the Cross or stake. John 3:16 GOD so loved the world He gave his Unique begotten Son , that whosoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. Jesus bore our sins on the Cross for the life of the World. Why do you reject this. WE are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus the Lamb of GOD. If you do not believe this then how are you a “Christian” then? IMOgene
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,14:52) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:10) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,11:24) We condemn the Quran because it teaches that God doesn't have a son. Jesus is the son of God. That is our faith. I am not sure that you should be allowed to post in this area. This is for believers, not those who do not believe.
You condemn the Quran firstly because of what it teaches? You can't just condemn it based upon its shoddy historical merits and revisionist history?What are the grounds on which you ripped 7 books out of the Bible?
What are the grounds on which you persist in rejecting the only verifiable Church Jesus founded?
Your Church does not see it that way.Also, is there really any need to condemn it at all? If you speak the truth and you have love, mercy and compassion would not your actions show the superiority of your belief? But if hate is offered and derision is cast how can you claim God at all with such a lack of love?
God demands Mercy not Sacrifice.
Islam teaches that God saved Jesus from the plot of the Jews but it is your firm belief that JESUS MUST DIE or had to have DIED for you to be Forgiven and yet God says He prefers Mercy over Sacrifice.
You want to be saved but you don't want your saviour to be saved?
I have already shown that blood sacrifice is not neccessary for atonement as proven by the Scapegoat
I would not even need to be a Muslim or a Christian to know that God is against any form of Human Sacrifice in-fact he says it is an abomination and he never even thought it:
Jeremiah 32 (King James Version)
35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
So you believe that after God commanded them not to sacrifice their children he sacrificed His own Son?
If he SACRIFICED HIS Son, what was the purpose of the Plot against him to have him Killed? Did God also set the plot in motion?
Hi BD,
God did not kill His Son.Foolish men under the control of the evil powers on high did so.
They crucified the Lord of Glory
They unwittingly offered him as a sacrifice for sin to God-and regretted doing so.
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,15:26) BD…….. Rom 5:9..> Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. and, .Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the Law purged with Blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Our sins go into remission because of the shed Blood of Christ, the Lamb of GOD.
Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law in our place. Your failure of recognizing the sacrifice of Jesus for out sins is a failure to recognize his atoning work on the Cross or stake. John 3:16 GOD so loved the world He gave his Unique begotten Son , that whosoever believes in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. Jesus bore our sins on the Cross for the life of the World. Why do you reject this. WE are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus the Lamb of GOD. If you do not believe this then how are you a “Christian” then? IMOgene
If we are saved by Grace how is it you believe that Jesus needed to die?There is no need to shed blood for atonement as I showed you before.
Leviticus 16:9-11 (King James Version)
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
You see that no blood from the scapegoat and this scapegoat is very important because all the sins are placed on the head of this scapegoat
Leviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
You should pay attention God is showing you a great mystery if you would but see it and now you understand why Jesus said about John the Baptist
Matthew 11:10-12 (New International Version)
10This is the one about whom it is written:
” 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.'[a] 11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.in other words:
Who can be more “FIT” as in:
Leviticus 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,15:36) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,14:52) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:10) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,11:24) We condemn the Quran because it teaches that God doesn't have a son. Jesus is the son of God. That is our faith. I am not sure that you should be allowed to post in this area. This is for believers, not those who do not believe.
You condemn the Quran firstly because of what it teaches? You can't just condemn it based upon its shoddy historical merits and revisionist history?What are the grounds on which you ripped 7 books out of the Bible?
What are the grounds on which you persist in rejecting the only verifiable Church Jesus founded?
Your Church does not see it that way.Also, is there really any need to condemn it at all? If you speak the truth and you have love, mercy and compassion would not your actions show the superiority of your belief? But if hate is offered and derision is cast how can you claim God at all with such a lack of love?
God demands Mercy not Sacrifice.
Islam teaches that God saved Jesus from the plot of the Jews but it is your firm belief that JESUS MUST DIE or had to have DIED for you to be Forgiven and yet God says He prefers Mercy over Sacrifice.
You want to be saved but you don't want your saviour to be saved?
I have already shown that blood sacrifice is not neccessary for atonement as proven by the Scapegoat
I would not even need to be a Muslim or a Christian to know that God is against any form of Human Sacrifice in-fact he says it is an abomination and he never even thought it:
Jeremiah 32 (King James Version)
35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin
So you believe that after God commanded them not to sacrifice their children he sacrificed His own Son?
If he SACRIFICED HIS Son, what was the purpose of the Plot against him to have him Killed? Did God also set the plot in motion?
Hi BD,
God did not kill His Son.Foolish men under the control of the evil powers on high did so.
They crucified the Lord of Glory
They unwittingly offered him as a sacrifice for sin to God-and regretted doing so.
I agree it appeared that they did kill the lord Jesus but God saved him from the plot of the evil men just like when the angels blinded the men of Sodom and Gomorrah when they were filled with the lust of sin.The scripture clearly says
Mark 4:11-13 (King James Version)
11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Matthew 13:13-15 (King James Version)
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Acts 28:25-27 (King James Version)
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hi BD,
Jesus Christ , the Son of God was crucifed and rose from the dead.
But I realise Islam cannot tolerate that truth and stops it's ears.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,15:47) Hi BD,
Jesus Christ , the Son of God was crucifed and rose from the dead.
But I realise Islam cannot tolerate that truth and stops it's ears.
Your belief that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead is not what will save you is it?Hi BD,
Trying to use scripture against scripture?
You should not play with the sword of the Spirit lest you cut yourself badly.DB……..Jesus brought us that Grace by his act of being obedient to GOD even unto his death for (OUR SINS) NOT HIS SINS because He did (NOT) SIN. John said He died for the SINS of Not only Us but the SINS of the Whole World. Jesus is our Kinsman redeemer and Paid for Us with HIS precious Blood , and GOD the FATHER accepted that Payment FOR US ALL.
Your lack of understanding about the scapegoat is that when this domestic goat was let go in the wilderness IT WOULD DIE BY SOME WILD ANIMAL OF SOME KIND WILD DOGS OR LIONS . Jesus was taken outside the city and was killed by (GENTILES) Romans .
Psa 22:16….> For DOGS have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. IT ALSO MENTIONS Lions also This is symbolic language for GENTILES.The romans were gentiles. He also died outside the city or CAMP.
Jesus was the scapegoat mentioned in Lev 16, in my opinion. And He carried all our Sins on HIS Head and Died for them all.
If you can not accept this , I don't know how you can claim to be a Christian.
gene
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,15:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,15:47) Hi BD,
Jesus Christ , the Son of God was crucifed and rose from the dead.
But I realise Islam cannot tolerate that truth and stops it's ears.
Your belief that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead is not what will save you is it?
That is exactley what saves us. It is the New Covenant under His Blood.
Luke 22:20 ….” This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,16:00) DB……..Jesus brought us that Grace by his act of being obedient to GOD even unto his death for (OUR SINS) NOT HIS SINS because He did (NOT) SIN. John said He died for the SINS of Not only Us but the SINS of the Whole World. Jesus is our Kinsman redeemer and Paid for Us with HIS precious Blood , and GOD the FATHER accepted that Payment FOR US ALL. Your lack of understanding about the scapegoat is that when this domestic goat was let go in the wilderness IT WOULD DIE BY SOME WILD ANIMAL OF SOME KIND WILD DOGS OR LIONS . Jesus was taken outside the city and was killed by (GENTILES) Romans .
Psa 22:16….> For DOGS have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. IT ALSO MENTIONS Lions also This is symbolic language for GENTILES.The romans were gentiles. He also died outside the city or CAMP.
Jesus was the scapegoat mentioned in Lev 16, in my opinion. And He carried all our Sins on HIS Head and Died for them all.
If you can not accept this , I don't know how you can claim to be a Christian.
gene
The scapegoat is presented before the lord ALIVE without dying. Islam says that Jesus was raised up to God without dying. As a Christian I am seeing and hearing without being deceived for in the Bible it says the whole world is deceivedRevelation 12:8-10 (King James Version)
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
In what way could the whole world be deceived this is 700 years befor Islam and now the deception is over. Remember the soul the sinneth shall die and Christ did not sin
I am telling you that Christ will return being first in all things including being the longest living person that has ever lived
Revelation 1:13-15 (King James Version)
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Daniel 7:8-10 (King James Version)
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Jesus has been alive since his birth continuously and those who have accepted him and believed in him he has been continuously reconciling them to God.
When Jesus returns he will reign for another thousand years and then he to will die and the the judgement will occur and then will the resurrection occur.
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,07:56) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,04:20) T8………..MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the women drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus . Next we see being disclosed (TWO) things The mystery of the women and the BEAST the (CARRIES) HER. which has the seven heads and ten horns. The women and the Beast that carries Her are not the same thing. The beast is the Kingdom or empire and the Women is the False Church that was being carried by that power. It also say that she was drunk with the blood of the Saints, The Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestant Churches have persecuted and killed many Saints. The Beast that carries Her was the Roman Empire and later expanded to other kingdoms and nations of the world. Remember it says the martyrs of Jesus were found in Her , the martyrs of Jesus were the Romans. So this could easily connect the Roman Empire with this Whore Church who rides the Beast (Roman Empire). The prophesy also seems to include the time of the millennium reign of Christ also . John was transported to the (DAY OF THE LORD) Notice where it says in Rev 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short space. (at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ this kingdom will appear for a short time and be destroyed by GOD the FATHER Himself by Fire. Those who turn away from Jesus and the Saints and set up there own religions and the beast( Kingdoms of the world) will hate her and burn Her with fire. Because GOD has put in their hearts to fulfill his will . I believe the Prophesy spans from the time of John to the every end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. All this is Just MY Opinion and nothing more.
gene
Rome was killing Christians and now Rome is the Head Quarters of the Pope that would seem to say that the Church conquered Rome.Please understand I'm not defending the Church per se, I am examining the issue without bias.
Foe instance in Revelations it doesn't say this beast or harlot is a Church.
Even a Muslim has more objectivity than t8?
Of course that is your opinion, but if you look closely, nothing written above in quotations are my words.Quote (georg @ Oct. 04 2009,05:49) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 04 2009,01:12) What of the Angilcan Church? they tend to call mass 'bells and smells'.
Do you know what the Mass is? They think that it was not enough that Christ died once.
Anti-Christ is however teaching that Christs sacrifice is only cleansing us from Adams inherited sin, and that our daily sins
can only be forgiven by a daily Mass sacrifice, during which Christ dies again and again. Teaching that Christs sacrifice was not good enough, is an insult of the hightest degree. It is a slap in the face of Jesus after He had just died for us an agonizing and torturous death. For something to be called an abomination is the strongest term used by God, to show how much He hates it. The Anti-Christ Gospel has destroyed the true meaning of Christ's sacrifice; even people who don't celebrate the Mass, don't undestand that; it has spread all over the world. And that from the time this abomination would be set up, there would be 1,290 years till its exposed (Dan. 12:11), exposed only because this abomination is still going on this very day.
It was Martin Luther exposed this abomination and many more wrongs of Anti-Christ in 1517 when He made His ninety-five disagreements with the Roman Universal Church public. Counting back 1,290 yers from the year 1517 brings us to the time it was set up, the year A.D.227;
This is my Husband's understanding of Ancient History which He studied.
And I agree with Him.
Peace and Lov e Irene
if I understand it correctly Martin Luther is direct cnnected to Daniel 12; 1290 days/years is he ?Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,16:20) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,07:56) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,04:20) T8………..MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the women drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus . Next we see being disclosed (TWO) things The mystery of the women and the BEAST the (CARRIES) HER. which has the seven heads and ten horns. The women and the Beast that carries Her are not the same thing. The beast is the Kingdom or empire and the Women is the False Church that was being carried by that power. It also say that she was drunk with the blood of the Saints, The Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestant Churches have persecuted and killed many Saints. The Beast that carries Her was the Roman Empire and later expanded to other kingdoms and nations of the world. Remember it says the martyrs of Jesus were found in Her , the martyrs of Jesus were the Romans. So this could easily connect the Roman Empire with this Whore Church who rides the Beast (Roman Empire). The prophesy also seems to include the time of the millennium reign of Christ also . John was transported to the (DAY OF THE LORD) Notice where it says in Rev 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short space. (at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ this kingdom will appear for a short time and be destroyed by GOD the FATHER Himself by Fire. Those who turn away from Jesus and the Saints and set up there own religions and the beast( Kingdoms of the world) will hate her and burn Her with fire. Because GOD has put in their hearts to fulfill his will . I believe the Prophesy spans from the time of John to the every end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. All this is Just MY Opinion and nothing more.
gene
Rome was killing Christians and now Rome is the Head Quarters of the Pope that would seem to say that the Church conquered Rome.Please understand I'm not defending the Church per se, I am examining the issue without bias.
Foe instance in Revelations it doesn't say this beast or harlot is a Church.
Even a Muslim has more objectivity than t8?
Of course that is your opinion, but if you look closely, nothing written above in quotations are my words.
it sames you have showned good scripture quotation it also seems that you have taken the rong conclution because you did not take advantage of all the info you quote.Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2009,00:29) Quote (georg @ Oct. 04 2009,05:49) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 04 2009,01:12) What of the Angilcan Church? they tend to call mass 'bells and smells'.
Do you know what the Mass is? They think that it was not enough that Christ died once.
Anti-Christ is however teaching that Christs sacrifice is only cleansing us from Adams inherited sin, and that our daily sins
can only be forgiven by a daily Mass sacrifice, during which Christ dies again and again. Teaching that Christs sacrifice was not good enough, is an insult of the hightest degree. It is a slap in the face of Jesus after He had just died for us an agonizing and torturous death. For something to be called an abomination is the strongest term used by God, to show how much He hates it. The Anti-Christ Gospel has destroyed the true meaning of Christ's sacrifice; even people who don't celebrate the Mass, don't undestand that; it has spread all over the world. And that from the time this abomination would be set up, there would be 1,290 years till its exposed (Dan. 12:11), exposed only because this abomination is still going on this very day.
It was Martin Luther exposed this abomination and many more wrongs of Anti-Christ in 1517 when He made His ninety-five disagreements with the Roman Universal Church public. Counting back 1,290 yers from the year 1517 brings us to the time it was set up, the year A.D.227;
This is my Husband's understanding of Ancient History which He studied.
And I agree with Him.
Peace and Lov e Irene
if I understand it correctly Martin Luther is direct cnnected to Daniel 12; 1290 days/years is he ?
terrariccaYou understand correctly.
Georg
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,16:20) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Oct. 05 2009,14:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,07:56) Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,04:20) T8………..MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the women drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus . Next we see being disclosed (TWO) things The mystery of the women and the BEAST the (CARRIES) HER. which has the seven heads and ten horns. The women and the Beast that carries Her are not the same thing. The beast is the Kingdom or empire and the Women is the False Church that was being carried by that power. It also say that she was drunk with the blood of the Saints, The Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestant Churches have persecuted and killed many Saints. The Beast that carries Her was the Roman Empire and later expanded to other kingdoms and nations of the world. Remember it says the martyrs of Jesus were found in Her , the martyrs of Jesus were the Romans. So this could easily connect the Roman Empire with this Whore Church who rides the Beast (Roman Empire). The prophesy also seems to include the time of the millennium reign of Christ also . John was transported to the (DAY OF THE LORD) Notice where it says in Rev 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short space. (at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ this kingdom will appear for a short time and be destroyed by GOD the FATHER Himself by Fire. Those who turn away from Jesus and the Saints and set up there own religions and the beast( Kingdoms of the world) will hate her and burn Her with fire. Because GOD has put in their hearts to fulfill his will . I believe the Prophesy spans from the time of John to the every end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. All this is Just MY Opinion and nothing more.
gene
Rome was killing Christians and now Rome is the Head Quarters of the Pope that would seem to say that the Church conquered Rome.Please understand I'm not defending the Church per se, I am examining the issue without bias.
Foe instance in Revelations it doesn't say this beast or harlot is a Church.
Even a Muslim has more objectivity than t8?
Of course that is your opinion, but if you look closely, nothing written above in quotations are my words.
Sorry….it was Gene that (yet again) exhibited a lack of objectivity.Quote (georg @ Oct. 06 2009,02:00) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 06 2009,00:29) Quote (georg @ Oct. 04 2009,05:49) Quote (princess of the king @ Oct. 04 2009,01:12) What of the Angilcan Church? they tend to call mass 'bells and smells'.
Do you know what the Mass is? They think that it was not enough that Christ died once.
Anti-Christ is however teaching that Christs sacrifice is only cleansing us from Adams inherited sin, and that our daily sins
can only be forgiven by a daily Mass sacrifice, during which Christ dies again and again. Teaching that Christs sacrifice was not good enough, is an insult of the hightest degree. It is a slap in the face of Jesus after He had just died for us an agonizing and torturous death. For something to be called an abomination is the strongest term used by God, to show how much He hates it. The Anti-Christ Gospel has destroyed the true meaning of Christ's sacrifice; even people who don't celebrate the Mass, don't undestand that; it has spread all over the world. And that from the time this abomination would be set up, there would be 1,290 years till its exposed (Dan. 12:11), exposed only because this abomination is still going on this very day.
It was Martin Luther exposed this abomination and many more wrongs of Anti-Christ in 1517 when He made His ninety-five disagreements with the Roman Universal Church public. Counting back 1,290 yers from the year 1517 brings us to the time it was set up, the year A.D.227;
This is my Husband's understanding of Ancient History which He studied.
And I agree with Him.
Peace and Lov e Irene
if I understand it correctly Martin Luther is direct cnnected to Daniel 12; 1290 days/years is he ?
terrariccaYou understand correctly.
Georg
These heretics are so easily refuted. Here are some quotes referring to the Eucharist as sacrifice prior to Irene and Georg's claim:The Didache
“Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Pope Clement I
“Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release” (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).
Ignatius of Antioch
“Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God” (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles” (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).
The Lord's Supper is what it is.
Every denomination probably has their version of it and put their own spin on it.
It is simply eating and drinking and remembering the sacrifice of our Lord for us.
The wine represents his blood that was shed for us and the bread his flesh that was given for us.I can't see how the quotes from Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, have anything to do specifically with the Catholic Eucharist (Vatican version).
Quote The Greek noun eucharistía (εὐχαριστία) derives from eú- “good, well” + cháris “favor, grace”. Eucharistéō (εὐχαριστῶ) is the usual verb for “to thank” in the Septuagint and New Testament. It is found in the major texts concerning the Lord's Supper.
For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks (eucharistéō), He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-24, NASB)
And when He had taken a cup and given thanks (eucharistéō), He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” (Mark 14:23-24, NASB)“The Lord's Supper” (Κυριακὸν δεῖπνον) derives from 1 Corinthians 11:20-21.
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
“Communion” is a translation of the Greek koinōnía (κοινωνία), found in 1 Corinthians 10:16. The word κοινωνία is commonly translated “fellowship” in other contexts.The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion (koinōnía) of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion (koinōnía) of the body of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:16, KJV)
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2009,11:35) The Lord's Supper is what it is. Every denomination probably has their version of it and put their own spin on it.
It is simply eating and drinking and remembering the sacrifice of our Lord for us.
The wine represents his blood that was shed for us and the bread his flesh that was given for us.I can't see how the quotes from Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, have anything to do specifically with the Catholic Eucharist (Vatican version).
Quote The Greek noun eucharistía (εὐχαριστία) derives from eú- “good, well” + cháris “favor, grace”. Eucharistéō (εὐχαριστῶ) is the usual verb for “to thank” in the Septuagint and New Testament. It is found in the major texts concerning the Lord's Supper.
For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks (eucharistéō), He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-24, NASB)
And when He had taken a cup and given thanks (eucharistéō), He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And He said to them, “This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” (Mark 14:23-24, NASB)“The Lord's Supper” (Κυριακὸν δεῖπνον) derives from 1 Corinthians 11:20-21.
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
“Communion” is a translation of the Greek koinōnía (κοινωνία), found in 1 Corinthians 10:16. The word κοινωνία is commonly translated “fellowship” in other contexts.The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion (koinōnía) of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion (koinōnía) of the body of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:16, KJV)
This is sacrificial language:Is the Mass a Sacrifice?
1. Where does the Bible say that the Mass is a sacrifice?
Of all of the Catholic doctrines that are denigrated by Fundamentalists as unbiblical, the sacrifice of the Mass has perhaps the most scriptural evidence that Fundamentalists and Catholics are unaware of.
During the Last Supper, the Lord said to his disciples, “Do this in memory of me.” In Greek, this statement reads, “Touto poieite eis tan eman anamnesin.” There are two.aspects of this phrase that deserve consideration. For one, the phrase touto poieite can be translated as do this or as offer this. In the Old Testament, God commands the Israelites “you shall offer (poieseis) upon the altar two lambs” (Ex. 29:38). This use of poiein is translated as offer this or sacrifice this over seventy times in the Old Testament. So the same word that is used for the sacrifice under the Old Covenant is used for the sacrifice of the Mass in the New.
The second key aspect of this phrase is Our Lord’s use of the word anamnesin. If you were to ask a Protestant to look in a Greek Translation of his Bible, every time this word (anamnesis) appears it is within a sacrificial context (see, for example, Numbers 10:10). It also can be translated as memorial offering or memorial sacrifice. While these nuances are lost in the English translation, Jewish ears would have understood the sacrificial meaning of Christ’s words.
Another New Testament passage that testifies to the sacrificial nature of the Mass is 1 Corinthians 10:14–21. Here Paul argues that participation in the Lord’s table means refusing to participate in the sacrifices of demons. Paul contrasts two groups: The first are those who participate in one altar (the table of demons), eating the sacrifice and drinking from the cup of demons. The second are those who partake of the table of the Lord (which, according to Malachi 1:7 is synonymous with an altar of sacrifice) and drink from the cup of the Lord. Paul’s argument is based upon the parallelism between the demonic sacrifice and the Christian sacrifice. Hebrews 13:10 follows this thought, saying that we have an altar from which those who serve the tent (Jewish priests serving in the temple) have no right to eat.
2. If the Mass is a sacrifice, then doesn’t that imply that Christ needs to die again?
It’s a common mistake to equate sacrifice with death. To understand the sacrifice of the Mass, it is essential that one understand the biblical picture of a sacrifice: It is always a gift; it is not always a killing. This is why Scripture can speak of a sacrifice of praise (Hos. 4:12) and the sacrifice of thanksgiving (Ps. 50:14).
Besides offering lambs, the Israelites also made grain offerings, drink offerings, et cetera. One sacrifice was called the wave offering, and this was an unbloody sacrifice where the Jews would wave a gift before God to symbolically give it to him. In Numbers 8:9–15, the whole Hebrew tribe of Levi was presented to God as a wave offering. In a similar way, the Mass is an offering—a sacrifice—where Christ is presented before the Father.
3. Even if you don’t believe Christ dies during the Mass, the Bible still says that he was offered once for all (Heb 9:24–28). Doesn’t re-sacrificing him at Mass mean Calvary wasn’t enough?
Christ’s bloody sacrifice on Calvary took place once, and it will never be repeated. To repeat his sacrifice would be to imply that the original offering was defective or insufficient, like the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament that could never take away sins. Jesus’ offering was perfect, efficacious, and eternal.
Protestants have no qualms accepting the perfect and efficacious nature of Christ’s sacrifice, but invite them to consider its eternal.aspect. Jesus is eternally a priest, and a priest’s very nature is to offer sacrifice. In the case of Christ, the eternal sacrifice that he offers is himself. This is why he appears in the book of Revelation as a lamb, standing as though he had been slain (Rev. 5:6). He appears in heaven in the state of a victim not because he still needs to suffer but because for all eternity he re-presents himself to God appealing to the work of the cross, interceding for us (Rom 8:34), and bringing the graces of Calvary to us.
The Mass is a participation in this one heavenly offering. The risen Christ becomes present on the altar and offers himself to God as a living sacrifice. Like the Mass, Christ words at the Last Supper are words of sacrifice, “This is my body . . . this is my blood . . . given up for you.” So, the Mass is not repeating the murder of Jesus, but is taking part in what never ends: the offering of Christ to the Father for our sake (Heb 7:25, 9:24). After all, if Calvary didn’t get the job done, then the Mass won’t help. It is precisely because the death of Christ was sufficient that the Mass is celebrated. It does not add to or take away from the work of Christ—it is the work of Christ.
4. When did Christians begin to say that the Lord’s supper was a sacrifice?
Before looking at the ancient beliefs of Christians, consider the modern belief. This may come as a shock t
o Evangelicals, but seventy-five percent of Christians believe the Mass to be a sacrifice. When you add up the Catholics, Orthodox, Abysinnians, Coptics, Assyrians, Armenians, et cetera, it is evident that Protestants are in the minority with their interpretation. Still, it’s fallacious to argue that because a majority of people believes something it must be true, so let’s examine the faith of the first Christians.The Didache refers to the Eucharist as a thusia, the Greek term for sacrifice: “Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
Note the reference to the first chapter of Malachi. This was a prophecy that spoke of worshipers offering incense and a sacrifice on the Lord’s table everywhere to replace those in Jerusalem. Church Fathers emphasized this point, knowing that the Eucharist was the fulfillment of it. Even the Protestant early-Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes that in the early Church “the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10, 11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist” (source).
A decade after the Didache was written, Clement of Rome wrote, “Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release” (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).
At the turn of the second century, a bishop and disciple of John the Evangelist wrote, “Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God” (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr added these thoughts with regard to the prophecy of Malachi: “God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
Although there are numerous Church Fathers who can be referenced, Irenaeus of Lyons deserves special consideration. In 189, he wrote, “He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand. . . .He makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles” (Adv. Heresies [A.D. 189])
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
