- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi BD,
You live in hope that they way of Islam will be found to be a right way?
Better to trust the God of Israel and Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Those who climb over the fence are thieves and robbers.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 04 2009,14:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 04 2009,12:42) But how is it assumed that the scripture is speaking about Catholocism? Revelation 18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
How does this in anyway describe Catholocism?
We don't know for sure because Babylon in Revelation is a mystery. “Mystery Babylon”.However there are some amazing similarities with Babylon and Christendoms beliefs.
Descriptions that fit include:
- City of 7 hills. Rome of course is not the only city with 7 hills, but the description fits.
- Worship of mother and child.
- Queen of Heaven
- Constantine was the Roman Emperor and the Babylon is symbolised as a prostitute woman riding on the beast. The beast was Rome or at least one of the heads of the beast.
- December the 31st and Easter were important pagan celebrations. They are now considered part of Christendom. Jesus is said to be born on the 31st. That makes it seem like Jesus is a new version of an old pagan messiah.
- The idea of a Pope, and all the ceremony around him is similar to the Roman Empire. A guy at the top, golden cups, making the whole world drunk on her wine, etc.
- Is called the mother of harlots and it is known that the Catholic Church is the mother of denominations. They split rebelled against her but held onto her foundation creed, hence by definition they are still catholic in belief if they hold that creed, but not catholic in practice.
- The mentioned foundational creed is the Trinity doctrine, which also Babylon had a belief in. Although their Trinity was different, it doesn't take a big imagination to see that putting a Christian face on a pagan heart will change things somewhat.
Of course “Mystery Babylon” in Revelation may actually be a reference to something else, such as the USA or New York. There are other candidates as well.
But Old Babylon was judged for her false gods, not her commercial activities and to say that something is of Babylon can mean reference to false gods and false doctrine. Therefore I use it sometimes to refer to such.
Even if Babylon is a city or country that is not Rome or the Vatican, then I think it is still correct to refer to the Trinity doctrine and other traditions as coming from Babylon.
Now if Babylon is the USA, then God is saying to believers to come out of her. So that means leaving the USA. If it is New York, then that means we need to leave that city. If it means Christendom, then it is simply a matter of not partaking of her traditions and institutions.
But one thing is for sure. It says “COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE”.
That can only mean one things. That some of God's people are in her or trapped in her and once they realise that they are in her or are part of her, they should leave lest they be judged along with her.
CA made an interesting point in another discussion. He said that if the Catholic Church (Vatican led one) is not the true Church then what is she? Because lets face it, she is pretty big and has been around for nearly 2000 years, and has had a huge impact in the world. So why would she not be mentioned?
From what I can tell, some think she is the Church, others think that Babylon is more likely. But I think that not many people who think about such things conclude that she is not written about at all. Although that is still a possibility.
What if it is all Christendome that is organized?bod.
It is; what we call Christian churches is nothing more than big business, ministers are trained professionals, they preach for money.
From 565 AD untill 1825 AD, the pope ruled the world like an emperor, as prophesied (Dan. 7:25), then he was dethroned by Napoleon, as prophesied (Dan. 11:36).
The popes desire was to rule the world, just as any other ruler, only he did it by craft, deceit, lies and threats, as prophesied (Rev. 13:5-7).Georg
Quote (georg @ Oct. 04 2009,23:05) bod. It is; what we call Christian churches is nothing more than big business, ministers are trained professionals, they preach for money.
From 565 AD untill 1825 AD, the pope ruled the world like an emperor, as prophesied (Dan. 7:25), then he was dethroned by Napoleon, as prophesied (Dan. 11:36).
The popes desire was to rule the world, just as any other ruler, only he did it by craft, deceit, lies and threats, as prophesied (Rev. 13:5-7).Georg
How did you get that from Daniel 11:36?In what way was the Pope saying things against God? Isn't it Possible that Napoleon was the one who exalted himself and spoke against God after all he was a terrible killer as well.
T8………..MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the women drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus . Next we see being disclosed (TWO) things The mystery of the women and the BEAST the (CARRIES) HER. which has the seven heads and ten horns. The women and the Beast that carries Her are not the same thing. The beast is the Kingdom or empire and the Women is the False Church that was being carried by that power. It also say that she was drunk with the blood of the Saints, The Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestant Churches have persecuted and killed many Saints. The Beast that carries Her was the Roman Empire and later expanded to other kingdoms and nations of the world. Remember it says the martyrs of Jesus were found in Her , the martyrs of Jesus were the Romans. So this could easily connect the Roman Empire with this Whore Church who rides the Beast (Roman Empire).
The prophesy also seems to include the time of the millennium reign of Christ also . John was transported to the (DAY OF THE LORD) Notice where it says in Rev 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short space. (at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ this kingdom will appear for a short time and be destroyed by GOD the FATHER Himself by Fire. Those who turn away from Jesus and the Saints and set up there own religions and the beast( Kingdoms of the world) will hate her and burn Her with fire. Because GOD has put in their hearts to fulfill his will . I believe the Prophesy spans from the time of John to the every end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. All this is Just MY Opinion and nothing more.
gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 02 2009,10:15) Hi CA,
How does austerity make anyone holy before God?
Where is humanism offered as a way of salvation?In what way does becoming a leader in a church of apostasy help you?
Does suffering and death for the sake of wrong theology save anyone?Is perpetual chastity a way of satiating the wrath of an angry God?
What of the man who sat on top of a pillar all his life-did that save him?Self perfectionism has always been the hope of carnal men but it is an impossibility and men who do not come to Jesus die yet in their sins.
Vanity, vanity all is vanity.
Eww, I like those thoughts.Seems what you are saying is without activism personal holiness is dead.
Kinda like, faith with out works is dead.
So cool.
Hi Con,
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you.
There is grace to produce fruit in Jesus but the works of natural men are at best filthy rags.
Zech3 showed Joshua was garbed in such rags and needed to be dressed in true righteousness from above.
Men all round the globe whip and starve and otherwise punish the flesh but it is all in vain without rebirth into the son of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,11:32) Hi Con,
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you.
There is grace to produce fruit in Jesus but the works of natural men are at best filthy rags.
Zech3 showed Joshua was garbed in such rags and needed to be dressed in true righteousness from above.
Men all round the globe whip and starve and otherwise punish the flesh but it is all in vain without rebirth into the son of God.
I totally agree, I see the other side as well, where those in churchs whip themselves with their Amani suits, wearing the latest fashion of womens hats, long drawn out fancy prayers, must be a middle ground somewhere.Hi Con,
Where did you get the idea the denominations of men form the body of Christ?Christ is not divided but they are.
To join them is not to join the body of Christ.
You must be born again
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,04:20) T8………..MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the women drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus . Next we see being disclosed (TWO) things The mystery of the women and the BEAST the (CARRIES) HER. which has the seven heads and ten horns. The women and the Beast that carries Her are not the same thing. The beast is the Kingdom or empire and the Women is the False Church that was being carried by that power. It also say that she was drunk with the blood of the Saints, The Catholic Church and her daughters the Protestant Churches have persecuted and killed many Saints. The Beast that carries Her was the Roman Empire and later expanded to other kingdoms and nations of the world. Remember it says the martyrs of Jesus were found in Her , the martyrs of Jesus were the Romans. So this could easily connect the Roman Empire with this Whore Church who rides the Beast (Roman Empire). The prophesy also seems to include the time of the millennium reign of Christ also . John was transported to the (DAY OF THE LORD) Notice where it says in Rev 17:10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he comes he must continue a short space. (at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ this kingdom will appear for a short time and be destroyed by GOD the FATHER Himself by Fire. Those who turn away from Jesus and the Saints and set up there own religions and the beast( Kingdoms of the world) will hate her and burn Her with fire. Because GOD has put in their hearts to fulfill his will . I believe the Prophesy spans from the time of John to the every end of the Millennial Reign of Christ. All this is Just MY Opinion and nothing more.
gene
Rome was killing Christians and now Rome is the Head Quarters of the Pope that would seem to say that the Church conquered Rome.Please understand I'm not defending the Church per se, I am examining the issue without bias.
Foe instance in Revelations it doesn't say this beast or harlot is a Church.
Hi Bd,
There is only one church, the body of Christ.Political organisations like yours and catholicism may hide behind a religious front but are of men.
The beast is of scarlet, the spiritual colour of MAN
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 04 2009,12:36) Hi Con,
Where did you get the idea the denominations of men form the body of Christ?Christ is not divided but they are.
To join them is not to join the body of Christ.
You must be born again
Quote Where did you get the idea the denominations of men form the body of Christ? Didn't think I did or imply it. I merely showed the other extreme where the one hand lives in poverty and whips themselves to show piety and the other hand where they are cliquesh and show there piety in churchs.
Quote Christ is not divided but they are. To join them is not to join the body of Christ.
You must be born again
I am in no disagreement. So slow down cowboy.
Hi Con,
Sure,
The worshipers in spirit and truth express their religion is simple practical ways[Jas]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,07:59) Hi Bd,
There is only one church, the body of Christ.Political organisations like yours and catholicism may hide behind a religious front but are of men.
The beast is of scarlet, the spiritual colour of MAN
Nick,Islam is not an organization and has no clergy at all. The Quran says that all come to God as servants.
How is red the spiritual color of man? Where is the verse that reveals such a thing?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,09:50) Hi BD,
Yes it says things like that.
But new gospels are anathema.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a new gospel you just assume that God didn't send anything else we will see if your right at the judgementHi BD,
We have no need to add your assumptions to the way of Jesus.
Men love to add their own new gospels and even to improve on the work of the Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,10:29) Hi BD,
We have no need to add your assumptions to the way of Jesus.
Men love to add their own new gospels and even to improve on the work of the Spirit.
So now you understand what God wants for you at all times?Where is it written that no other inspiration or books will be sent down to men?
Need I remind you that if you are correct in what you say then you should not be reading past the four Gospels otherwise you are reading the words that came after Jesus and words that often contradict what Jesus said and yet you love those words.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,11:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,10:29) Hi BD,
We have no need to add your assumptions to the way of Jesus.
Men love to add their own new gospels and even to improve on the work of the Spirit.
So now you understand what God wants for you at all times?Where is it written that no other inspiration or books will be sent down to men?
Need I remind you that if you are correct in what you say then you should not be reading past the four Gospels otherwise you are reading the words that came after Jesus and words that often contradict what Jesus said and yet you love those words.
It is written that Jesus is the only way to God and that all who came before him and after him are robbers. All as in all that claim to be what he is.He is the one that died and rose again. Mohammed and all others did not.
We follow Jesus Christ. We believe that he is the son of God and the messiah. This the true faith and is the foundation of the Church which is his body.
As far as I know, Islam denies that he is the messiah like many other groups do.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 05 2009,11:18) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 05 2009,11:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,10:29) Hi BD,
We have no need to add your assumptions to the way of Jesus.
Men love to add their own new gospels and even to improve on the work of the Spirit.
So now you understand what God wants for you at all times?Where is it written that no other inspiration or books will be sent down to men?
Need I remind you that if you are correct in what you say then you should not be reading past the four Gospels otherwise you are reading the words that came after Jesus and words that often contradict what Jesus said and yet you love those words.
It is written that Jesus is the only way to God and that all who came before him and after him are robbers. All as in all that claim to be what he is.He is the one that died and rose again. Mohammed and all others did not.
We follow Jesus Christ. We believe that he is the son of God ad the messiah. That is the true faith.
Who doesn't believe that he is The Christ born of a Virgin and a Spirit that proceeded from God?You miss the point completely. You believe in other writings that came AFTER Jesus and yet you condemn the Quran for no reason.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
