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Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 05 2009,17:40) Returning to the main question of the thread, “Who was Job's Advocate”, scripture in Job mentions nothing about a god son or a pre-existent Jesus. Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids [is] death-shade.
17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer [is] pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens [is] my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter [is] my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: 21 And he reasoneth for a man with God, And a son of man for his friend. 22 When a few years do come, Then a path I return not do I go.
This is extremely weak evidence to try and prove that the interpreter or testifier in the high places would be a god son or pre-existent Jesus. Those who watched over God's people to send them blessing and cursing were God's messengers. Seems rather evident that Job would be referring to one of many angels. Job was hoping that an angel was on his side and saw things the way Job did. However, the original angel looking over him had him nailed right, Job was in fact a person that did have a hedge built around himself. He might not have cursed God, but he certainly was TRULY ignorant about YHWH, and YHWH definitely had a few words of instruction for Job.
There has always been and always will be just ONE advocate between God and man. So the inference is clear.thinker
Hi TT,
It does confuse you does it not?
If i asked you to pass the milk would you tip the bottle into your hands and offer it?
The vessels used by God are many.Jodi Lee said:
Quote Seriously ridiculous. The WHOLE debate is over the word THROUGH, it is clearly shown from the Lexicon that the word can also represent BECAUSE OF! The dictionary and Thesaurus also show that the word through can mean BECAUSE OF. Jodi,
It is you who is being ridiculous. Now you're saying that Paul said that “all things were made because of Him and because of Him.” You are attributing to Paul redundancy that makes no sense.“Al things were created because of Him and because of Him.”
Give it up! First you said “for” Him and “for” Him. Now you're saying “because of” Him and “because of” Him. An interpretation that makes no sense cannot be correct.
thinker
Jodi Lee wrote:
Quote Ephesians 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him. Jodi,
The passage you cite above is talking about the inclusion of the Gentiles into the covenant (note the bold). Paul is saying that this was not revealed in the old testament scriptures. Paul's statements here are not germane to this discussion.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,00:13) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 05 2009,17:40) Returning to the main question of the thread, “Who was Job's Advocate”, scripture in Job mentions nothing about a god son or a pre-existent Jesus. Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids [is] death-shade.
17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer [is] pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens [is] my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter [is] my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: 21 And he reasoneth for a man with God, And a son of man for his friend. 22 When a few years do come, Then a path I return not do I go.
This is extremely weak evidence to try and prove that the interpreter or testifier in the high places would be a god son or pre-existent Jesus. Those who watched over God's people to send them blessing and cursing were God's messengers. Seems rather evident that Job would be referring to one of many angels. Job was hoping that an angel was on his side and saw things the way Job did. However, the original angel looking over him had him nailed right, Job was in fact a person that did have a hedge built around himself. He might not have cursed God, but he certainly was TRULY ignorant about YHWH, and YHWH definitely had a few words of instruction for Job.
There has always been and always will be just ONE advocate between God and man. So the inference is clear.thinker
Actually to the OT Israelites Michael the ArchAngel was their Advocate.International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
Michael:
mi’-ka-el, mi’-kel (mikha’el, “who is like God?” Michael):
(1) The father of Sethur the Asherite spy (Nu 13:13).(2) (3) Two Gadites (1Ch 5:13,14).
(4) A name in the genealogy of Asaph (1Ch 6:40 (Hebrew 25)).
(5) A son of Izrahiah of Issachar (1Ch 7:3).
(6) A Benjamite (1Ch 8:16).
(7) A Manassite who ceded to David at Ziklag (1Ch 12:20).
(8) The father of Omri of Issachar (1Ch 27:18).
(9) A son of King Jehoshaphat (2Ch 21:2).
(10) The father of Zebediah, an exile who returned with Ezra (Ezr 8:8 parallel #/RAPC 1Es 8:34).
(11) “The archangel” (Jude 1:9). Probably also the unnamed archangel of 1Th 4:16 is Michael. In the Old Testament he is mentioned by name only in Daniel. He is “one of the chief princes” (Da 10:13), the “prince” of Israel (Da 10:21), “the great prince” (Da 12:1); perhaps also “the prince of the host” (Da 8:11). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. In the uncanonical apocalyptic writings, however, Jewish angelology is further developed. In them Michael frequently appears and excretes functions similar to those which are ascribed to him in Daniel. He is the first of the “four presences that stand before God”—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel or Phanuel (En 9:1; 40:9). In other apocryphal books and even elsewhere in En, the number of archangels is given as 7 (En 20:1-7; Tobit 12:15; compare also Re 8:2). Among the many characterizations of Michael the following may be noted: He is “the merciful and long-suffering” (En 40:9; 68:2,3), “the mediator and intercessor” (Ascension of Isaiah, Latin version 9:23; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Levi 5; Da 6). It is he who opposed the Devil in a dispute concerning Moses’ body (Jude 1:9). This passage, according to most modern authorities, is derived from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses (see Charles’ edition, 105-10). It is Michael also who leads the angelic armies in the war in heaven against “the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan” (Re 12:7 ). According to Charles, the supplanting of the “child” by the archangel is an indication of the Jewish origin of this part of the book.
The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the “child” and the archangel in Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Michael:
who is like God? (1.) The title given to one of the chief angels (Dan 10:13,21; 12:1). He had special charge of Israel as a nation. He disputed with Satan (Jud 1:9) about the body of Moses. He is also represented as warning against “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world” (Rev 12:7-9).
The prophet Daniel experiences a vision after having undergone a period of fasting. In the vision, an angel identifies Michael as the protector of Israel (10:13, 21). Later in the vision (12:1), Daniel is informed that Michael will stand for Israel during the time of the End.
According to rabbinic Jewish tradition, Michael acted as the advocate of Israel, and sometimes had to fight with the princes of the other nations (cf. Daniel 10:13) and particularly with the angel Samael, Israel's accuser. Michael's enmity with Samael dates from the time when the latter was thrown down from heaven. Samael took hold of the wings of Michael, whom he wished to bring down with him in his fall; but Michael was saved by God (Midrash Pirke R. El. xxvi.).
In later Jewish writings, particularly in Kabbalistic works, he is viewed as “the advocate of the Jews.”
Other Sources:
Hebrew apocrypha
Book of Enoch
Rabbinic traditions
Jewish Encyclopedia – MICHAEL”. Jewish Encyclopedia. Retrieved 2009-02-18.
Kabbalistic traditions
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,19:13) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 05 2009,17:40) Returning to the main question of the thread, “Who was Job's Advocate”, scripture in Job mentions nothing about a god son or a pre-existent Jesus. Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids [is] death-shade.
17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer [is] pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens [is] my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter [is] my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: 21 And he reasoneth for a man with God, And a son of man for his friend. 22 When a few years do come, Then a path I return not do I go.
This is extremely weak evidence to try and prove that the interpreter or testifier in the high places would be a god son or pre-existent Jesus. Those who watched over God's people to send them blessing and cursing were God's messengers. Seems rather evident that Job would be referring to one of many angels. Job was hoping that an angel was on his side and saw things the way Job did. However, the original angel looking over him had him nailed right, Job was in fact a person that did have a hedge built around himself. He might not have cursed God, but he certainly was TRULY ignorant about YHWH, and YHWH definitely had a few words of instruction for Job.
There has always been and always will be just ONE advocate between God and man. So the inference is clear.thinker
You could not be MORE incorrect. Jesus BECAME a High Priest and advocate through his sacrifice on the cross.BEFORE Christ there were continual sacrifices made by priests acting as ADVOCATES for the people unto God. Job himself was a priest and ADVOCATE for his own family.
Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. 3 Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.
Hebrews 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Job 1:4 And his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did regularly.
Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids is death-shade. 17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer is pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens is my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter is my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped:
Job 33:22 And draw near to the pit doth his soul, And his life to those causing death. 23 If there is by him a messenger, An interpreter — one of a thousand, To declare for man his uprightness: 24 Then He doth favour him and saith, `Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement.' 25 Fresher is his flesh than a child's, He returneth to the days of his youth.
Your INFERENCE Jack is LAME!
God's messengerS brought blessing or cursing. Job was pleading that the cursing stop and he be restored, he needed just ONE out of a thousand messengers to bring him such relief!
Your teaching Jack as I have said before is pure antichrist. You teach that some immortal god was a Christ before Jesus of Nazareth.
The Christ came to MAN as a MAN, he did not exist before as some immortal god son. Christ was not an advocate for the people as any OTHER being other then the MAN who died on the cross.
Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Hebrews 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
WHO had to be made like us in all things?
There is NO scripture that speaks of a god son or immortal son having to be made into a human Christ.
The PROMISE of a man of the seed of David… the Jesus Christ that was promised TO COME BEFORE TIME BEGAN, had to be made just like his brethren!
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 06 2009,09:05) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 06 2009,07:50) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,19:45) TO JODI LEE: Jodi,
The verse below is Colossians 1:16 in the Greek and notice that the two words are “di” and “eis” meaning “through” and “for.”τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται
thinker
You JUST don't GET it Jack!Seriously ridiculous. The WHOLE debate is over the word THROUGH, it is clearly shown from the Lexicon that the word can also represent BECAUSE OF! The dictionary and Thesaurus also show that the word through can mean BECAUSE OF.
Christ IS the man born of the seed of David, he did not exist before as something other than flesh, such teaching IMO is pure antiChrist. Christ has COME to us in the FLESH, nowhere does scripture say that he came prior as the ONE True God. He is the SON of the One True God. YHWH created all things through His knowledge of the COMING Christ, and FOR the coming Christ. This makes perfect sense, especially given the fact that we have scripture telling us that Jesus Christ, the man born of the seed of David, was PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN, and was taught by YHWH to the prophets of one day COMING.
As well we are told that the FIRST Heavenly MAN is the head of the body that will dwell on earth for an eternity, so we can see quite clearly that heaven and earth were NOT created FOR some god son, some pre-existent immortal being, but FOR the MAN who was promised to COME!
Ephesians 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.Scripture does not say God created all things through having a god son or immortal spirit being create all things, to infer that it was NOT actually CHRIST but whoever Christ was BEFORE, is COMPLETELY irresponsible and ridiculous.
It is completely germane!!You say that the world was created by the hands of a pre-existent Jesus, some immortal god son. You say that heaven and earth was created through (as by means of) and for this god son.
Ephesians 3 shows us directly that God, not Jesus Christ or some immortal god son as you infer, created all things. God, the Father of Jesus Christ, created them FOR the MAN who was first to receive eternal life, Jesus.
The passage shows us that the ENTIRE purpose for the Father creating heaven and earth was for HUMAN beings with eternal life to dwell upon it. YHWH knew that death would have to be apart of man's instruction, however He also knew that He could in the end create righteous men and give them eternal life. This is why it is said that before time began God had a promise of eternal life for mankind, this is why we are told that Jesus Christ was promised before time began. All things thus were created because of the coming Christ and for the coming Christ.
Jack, what it boils down to is that Jesus is the FIRSTborn of the dead, and He is the Son of Man that is returning to finish his Father's will, to bring eternal salvation and paradise to this earth. All things were created by the Father because of THIS MAN and his body/the church…. his brothers and sister. When you start to INFER that the person Jesus Christ DOES NOT ACTUALLY represent Jesus Christ (the MAN born of the seed of David of the promise) but represents some god son, you do nothing but create PURE antichrist GARBAGE!!
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,19:20) Jodi Lee said: Quote Seriously ridiculous. The WHOLE debate is over the word THROUGH, it is clearly shown from the Lexicon that the word can also represent BECAUSE OF! The dictionary and Thesaurus also show that the word through can mean BECAUSE OF. Jodi,
It is you who is being ridiculous. Now you're saying that Paul said that “all things were made because of Him and because of Him.” You are attributing to Paul redundancy that makes no sense.“Al things were created because of Him and because of Him.”
Give it up! First you said “for” Him and “for” Him. Now you're saying “because of” Him and “because of” Him. An interpretation that makes no sense cannot be correct.
thinker
Jack, your denial of what I clearly say makes we wonder about you
I have said numerous times that the Father created heaven and earth because of Christ and for Christ. There is a difference between the two, I didn't realize that I needed to explain that difference to you, I guess I should have known better.
Without a means to bring salvation to man there would have been no point to create heaven and earth. The plan of the coming Messiah was how God was able to create the earth in the first place. Without a WAY of salvation the Father would have NEVER created heaven and earth. Jesus was that WAY, therefore it is said that BECAUSE OF the Messiah the Father created heaven and earth, or rather through the coming Messiah the Father created heaven and earth.
Our heavenly Father YHWH, created heaven and earth FOR righteous men with eternal life to dwell upon, Jesus Christ is the FIRST of these men.
Hi JOdi,
Shouting is unlikely to convince any who have been deceived.
Besides you may not be completely right about everything.Jodi lee said;
Quote You could not be MORE incorrect. Jesus BECAME a High Priest and advocate through his sacrifice on the cross. BEFORE Christ there were continual sacrifices made by priests acting as ADVOCATES for the people unto God.
First, Job said that His advocate is “NOW in heaven.” Second, Job had no reathly priest to advocate for him because he lived and died BEFORE the priesthood was established. So who was His advocate if not the one he believed was already in heaven?
thinker
Hi TT,
ADVOCATE or WITNESS??They are alternative scriptural options shown in my bible.
Many beings or even things can be witnesses.
Best to not build to high lest your foundation be found insecure.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 07 2009,04:28) Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids is death-shade. 17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer is pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens is my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter is my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: Job 33:22 And draw near to the pit doth his soul, And his life to those causing death. 23 If there is by him a messenger, An interpreter — one of a thousand, To declare for man his uprightness: 24 Then He doth favour him and saith, `Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement.' 25 Fresher is his flesh than a child's, He returneth to the days of his youth.
Your INFERENCE Jack is LAME!
God's messengerS brought blessing or cursing. Job was pleading that the cursing stop and he be restored, he needed just ONE out of a thousand messengers to bring him such relief!
Jodi,
You missed verses 29-33. Verses 29-30 say that “God works all these things.” Then God Himself interjects and say that He will JUSTIFY Job (verses 31-33). That's what an advocate does. In other words, God Himself is the “one among a thousand” Advocate. This is Jesus because He Advocates BETWEEN God and man.I find it difficult to trust you when you wrench statements right out of their context the way you do. You ignored God's reply to Job's dilemna.
thinker
Hi BD,
Advocates such as lawyers offer assistance in justification but do not decide -that is the work of the Judge.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2009,05:53) Hi JOdi,
Shouting is unlikely to convince any who have been deceived.
Besides you may not be completely right about everything.
Nick I am not shouting, I have highlighted and STRESSED my point, where I thought it was needed.So you're saying that there is a possibility that I might be actually right about everything?…..thanks how nice of you!
As I have said before, I debate according to what makes the best sense to me at that given time, sometimes after reading another persons post or reading over scripture more thoroughly I change my understanding.
Jodi lee said:
Quote Your teaching Jack as I have said before is pure antichrist. You teach that some immortal god was a Christ before Jesus of Nazareth.
Welll, you have redefined the term “antichrist.” Traditionally it has always meant that one denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. He had to pre-exist in order to COME in the flesh. Simple!Jodi Lee:
Quote WHO had to be made like us in all things?
Yes indeed! He was MADE like us which means that He was NOT like us to begin with.thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote It is completely germane!! You say that the world was created by the hands of a pre-existent Jesus, some immortal god son. You say that heaven and earth was created through (as by means of) and for this god son.
Ephesians 3 shows us directly that God, not Jesus Christ or some immortal god son as you infer, created all things. God, the Father of Jesus Christ, created them FOR the MAN who was first to receive eternal life, Jesus.
Did you or did you not say that Paul in this section said that the old testament does not reveal and intermediate agent in creation? I was simply pointing out that Paul does not deal with that issue.Jodi Lee:
Quote The passage shows us that the ENTIRE purpose for the Father creating heaven and earth was for HUMAN beings with eternal life to dwell upon it.
The “things” created in this section refer NOT to the original creation but to the new body in Christ. According to chapter 2 it is Christ who creates the new body.Quote
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Note that Christ creates the “new man” (body) in Himself. This is the creation referred to in chapter 3. Therefore, God in chapter 3 is Christ.thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote I have said numerous times that the Father created heaven and earth because of Christ and for Christ.
You keep changing Jodi. And you are still out of accord with ALL the translations. Give me a good reason why I should disregard EVERY TRANSLATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
Every translation says “through” and “for” or “by” and “for.” Yet you want me to just accept your “because of” and “for” idea. Btw, Proverbs 16:4 says that all things were created FOR YHWH.
Quote YHWH has made all FOR Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Chew on this for a while. If YHWH made all things FOR Himself, then how could all things have been made FOR Christ if Christ is not YHWH?The word “firstborn” simply means “supreme” (Colossians 1:15-18).
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 07 2009,05:53) Hi JOdi,
Shouting is unlikely to convince any who have been deceived.
Besides you may not be completely right about everything.
Nick……..Jodi is more right in what she is saying then most Here by far. You would do well to take heed and try to follow what she is saying, She is definitely being led by the Spirit of GOD. IMOgene
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