Who was job&#39;s advocate?

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 04 2009,03:47)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,04:24)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 03 2009,13:03)

I think these Genesis passages are problematic for the Arians. as they quite patently state that YHWH was seen. Yet the NT is just as emphatic in stating that The Father hasn't been seen….

Hey Is. 1:18,
It is good to see you back. In my estimation John 1:18 is grossly misunderstood. It says,

“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

The word “declared” here is the Greek “exegesis” from which we get our word “to explain.” John meant that no man has seen God with the understanding except the only begotten Son; “He has explained Him.”

John was referring to seeing with the understanding. “No man has understood God at any time.” We know that there were many times that old testament saints saw God with their eyes. Jacob called the place he wrestled with God “Peniel” because he had seen God “face to face.” Hagar identified the Messenger as “the God who see me” because “I have seen Him.”

Gnosticism and its wife Arianism start out with the presupposition that God cannot change or Himself become immanent. Job had to deal with a Gnostic in the person of Bildad the Shuhite and we still must deal with Gnostics today.

thinker

Hi Jack

I have to disagree with you on this one.

I think Jesus did see the Father. The Greek word almost invariably is used in the NT for actually seeing with the eye.

It ties in beautifully with what Jesus who is the Image of the invisible God said in John 14 when he said they had seen the Father when they have seen him.

Jesus surely did make the Father known and they could see the visible image of God in the flesh when they seen him. IMO

Keith,
I was not saying that Jesus did not see the Father. He was from the bosom of the Father so He definitely saw the Father. I was saying that John 1:18 is not speaking about seeing God with the eyes.

I agree with you that those who beheld Jesus beheld God Himself. But John 1:18 is not about beholding God with the eyes. It is about beholding Him with the understanding.

Jack

October 3, 2009 at 4:55 pm#148487

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Oct. 04 2009,04:03)

peace and love……………….gene

Gene,
Did you receive that case of White Out I sent you?

thinker

October 3, 2009 at 5:00 pm#148488

Participant

Constitutionalist said:

Quote

Yes you are correct that in most parts of God does stick up for Job.

And Job knew that YHWH (Jesus) was sticking up for him. So why would Job “yearn” to have an Advocate when he already had the best lawyer in town?

thinker

October 3, 2009 at 10:27 pm#148512

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,10:00)

Constitutionalist said:

Quote

Yes you are correct that in most parts of God does stick up for Job.

And Job knew that YHWH (Jesus) was sticking up for him. So why would Job “yearn” to have an Advocate when he already had the best lawyer in town?

thinker

First of all, the writings of Job were not written by himself.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:1

The narrative starts itself as a story, it was either handed down, or it was prophetic. No different than Moses's account of Genesis in that it was either handed down or was a prophetic teaching given through Moses for Moses's was not alive during the accounts of Adam and Eve.

Also there is a great likelyhood Moses may very likely be the author of Job as well, for if Job in receiving his double blessing did/also include length of years then when Job died (1516 BC) Moses was fifty five, and had been in Midian fifteen years (twenty-five years before the Exodus). This would account for Job being a worshipper of the God of Abraham and even allow Moses to be eye and ear witness of the events it records in Midian. (Taken from, The Words of the Lord Jesus. Vol. iv, p. 406. By Dr. E.W. Bullinger

Any way it is a third person account.

Maybe because it is no different than:

For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. Philemon 1:8

Here “record” in the Greek is martys meaning witness.

Quote

You keep referring to your NIV:

“Job 16:19-21 says:

19 Even NOW my witness is in heaven; my Advocate is on high.

20 My Intercessor IS my friend as my eyes pour out tears to God;

21 on behalf of a man He pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend. NIV”

Quote

The KJV version does not say what your version says:

Job 16:19-21 says:

19 Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high.

20 My friends scorn me: [but] mine eye poureth out [tears] unto God.

21 O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbour! KJV

Now you say why would Job “yearn”? Look at the KJV version and say why would Job cry: “mine eye poureth out [tears]” Because the KJV version says it differant than the NIV version.

In your version of the NIV who is the “man” Job is pouring out his tears over? After all it is in his behalf of this man.

In the KJV version Job is crying and pleading for himself because he is scorned by his friends.

I don't know how to say this but the NIV grossly mistranslates what was written long before it.

October 3, 2009 at 11:57 pm#148523

NickHassan

Participant

Hi,
In the NIV on this site an alternative reading is offered for verse 20
“MY FRIENDS TREAT ME WITH SCORN”
so there may be manuscript variation.

October 4, 2009 at 1:00 am#148540

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2009,16:57)

Hi,
In the NIV on this site an alternative reading is offered for verse 20
“MY FRIENDS TREAT ME WITH SCORN”
so there may be manuscript variation.

Even your suggestion that the NIV in this site is closer than the NIV he quoted in the very first post in this topic thread.

Thank you for offering that.

October 4, 2009 at 1:38 am#148542

Participant

[Vulgate 16:20] ecce enim in caelo testis meus et conscius meus in excelsis verbosi mei amici mei ad Deum stillat oculus meus atque utinam sic iudicaretur vir cum Deo quomodo iudicatur filius hominis cum collega suo Job 16:19-21 Vulgate 405

Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. My friends scorn me: [but] mine eye poureth out [tears] unto God. O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbour! Job 16:19-21 KJV 1611

Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. My friends scorn me: [but] my eye poureth out [tears] to God. O that one might plead for a man with God, as a man [pleadeth] for his neighbor! Job 16:19-21 WEB 1833

Surely even now my witness [is] in heaven, And my evidence [is] on high. My friends scorn me; My eyes pour out [tears] to God. Oh, that one might plead for a man with God, As a man [pleads] for his neighbor! Job 16:19-21 NKJV 1798-1982

Even now my witness is in heaven; my advocate is on high. My intercessor is my friend [fn] as my eyes pour out tears to God; on behalf of a man he pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend. Job 16:19-21 NIV 1973-1984
NIV Footnotes: Replaced (16:20) Or My friends treat me with scorn.

Even now my witness is in heaven. My advocate is there on high. My friends scorn me, but I pour out my tears to God. Oh, that someone would mediate between God and me, as a person mediates between friends. Job 16:19-21 NLT 1996-2997

Only NIV made the alteration

October 4, 2009 at 2:09 am#148543

Not3in1

Participant

“Manuscript variation”

“Alteration”

“Inspiration” ?

Hmmmm

October 4, 2009 at 3:58 am#148557

NickHassan

Participant

Hi and welcome Con,
You do realise that the KJV and the NKJV and the YLT are all based on a different set of manuscripts from other bibles, the more common and most modern?

Other bibles are based on older and less common ones.

That is why we need the Spirit Who wrote the originals though men to prayerfully sort it out.
It is not fair to say the translators lied or were deceived as some do who have not recognised these things.

October 4, 2009 at 4:47 am#148561

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 03 2009,20:58)

Hi and welcome Con,
You do realise that the KJV and the NKJV and the YLT are all based on a different set of manuscripts from other bibles, the more common and most modern?

Other bibles are based on older and less common ones.

Never claimed a lie or deceit, only that the NIV removed “Or My friends treat me with scorn”.

Quote

Nick Hassan, Posted on Oct. 03 2009,16:57
Hi,
In the NIV on this site an alternative reading is offered for verse 20
“MY FRIENDS TREAT ME WITH SCORN”
so there may be manuscript variation.

They took out the original, and then said that it can be used for an alternative, why not use the original? Because by leaving it out might change the meaning and allow the more modern theology fit in?

October 5, 2009 at 4:52 am#148716

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2009,12:03)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,19:44)

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:17)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,09:06)

The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.

God can also speak through us. You know that.

God is an invisible spirit, and he speaks through people and primarily through his only begotten.

Besides, here is what the writer of the Book of Acts says about this event. It is obviously different to the way you see it.

Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

Notice the word 'angel'. That word means messenger. This also agrees with the fact that God is invisible and no one has seen him and that Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God and that angels are spirits that reflect God's glory.

It wasn't the Most High God that appeared VISIBLY in the burning bush, but a visible messenger of God.

t8,
When did I say that God cannot speak through us? The Messenger of Jehovah said “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). To Hagar He said, “I will multiply your seed.”

But the messenger Gabriel did not speak like this. He said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will come upon you.” Why didn't the Messenger which came to Hagar and Moses do the same as Gabriel?

thinker

Jack

True! And the messanger that spoke to Moses out of the Bush identified “Himself” as YHWH. No Angel has ever identified themselves as YHWH.

Therefore the Messenger must be Jesus who is YHWH.

This blindness is happened to them accrording to the scriptures!

So Silly

Exodus 3:2 and there appeareth unto him a messenger of Jehovah in a flame of fire, out of the midst of the bush, and he seeth, and lo, the bush is burning with fire, and the bush is not consumed. 3 And Moses saith, `Let me turn aside, I pray thee, and I see this great appearance; wherefore is the bush not burned?' 4 and Jehovah seeth that he hath turned aside to see, and God calleth unto him out of the midst of the bush, and saith, `Moses, Moses;' and he saith, `Here [am] I.' 5 And He saith, `Come not near hither: cast thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place on which thou art standing is holy ground.' 6 He saith also, `I [am] the God of thy father, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob;' and Moses hideth his face, for he is afraid to look towards God.

If Jesus WERE in FACT YHWH, it would not say that he was a messenger OF YHWH. There would be NO MESSENGER OF YHWH, there would be JUST YHWH!!

The Messenger SPEAKS FOR YHWH, therefore what is said BY the messenger IS NOT the messengers words but the words OF YHWH. DUH! When the messenger says, ” I am the God of Abraham,” that would be the WORDS of YHWH that THE MESSENGER is speaking as a messenger FOR YHWH! Once again…..DUH!

This just creates the perfect example for me that Trinitarians are truly UNDER STRONG DELUSIONS!

The messenger NEVER identified himself as YHWH or as Jesus. The messenger identified himself as the messenger OF YHWH and he spoke unto Moses as if he were YHWH, because well…….that is precisely what messengers DO!

October 5, 2009 at 5:40 am#148722

Participant

Returning to the main question of the thread, “Who was Job's Advocate”, scripture in Job mentions nothing about a god son or a pre-existent Jesus.

Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids [is] death-shade.

17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer [is] pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens [is] my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter [is] my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped: 21 And he reasoneth for a man with God, And a son of man for his friend. 22 When a few years do come, Then a path I return not do I go.

This is extremely weak evidence to try and prove that the interpreter or testifier in the high places would be a god son or pre-existent Jesus. Those who watched over God's people to send them blessing and cursing were God's messengers. Seems rather evident that Job would be referring to one of many angels. Job was hoping that an angel was on his side and saw things the way Job did. However, the original angel looking over him had him nailed right, Job was in fact a person that did have a hedge built around himself. He might not have cursed God, but he certainly was TRULY ignorant about YHWH, and YHWH definitely had a few words of instruction for Job.

October 5, 2009 at 7:50 pm#148763

http://bible.johndyer.name/

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,19:45)

TO JODI LEE:

Jodi,
The verse below is Colossians 1:16 in the Greek and notice that the two words are “di” and “eis” meaning “through” and “for.”

τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται

thinker

You JUST don't GET it Jack!

Seriously ridiculous. The WHOLE debate is over the word THROUGH, it is clearly shown from the Lexicon that the word can also represent BECAUSE OF! The dictionary and Thesaurus also show that the word through can mean BECAUSE OF.

Christ IS the man born of the seed of David, he did not exist before as something other than flesh, such teaching IMO is pure antiChrist. Christ has COME to us in the FLESH, nowhere does scripture say that he came prior as the ONE True God. He is the SON of the One True God. YHWH created all things through His knowledge of the COMING Christ, and FOR the coming Christ. This makes perfect sense, especially given the fact that we have scripture telling us that Jesus Christ, the man born of the seed of David, was PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN, and was taught by YHWH to the prophets of one day COMING.

As well we are told that the FIRST Heavenly MAN is the head of the body that will dwell on earth for an eternity, so we can see quite clearly that heaven and earth were NOT created FOR some god son, some pre-existent immortal being, but FOR the MAN who was promised to COME!

October 5, 2009 at 8:36 pm#148769

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Jodi,
Jesus was a man so he is the Son of man who will judge men.
The word was made flesh and dwelled among us.

October 5, 2009 at 9:05 pm#148772

http://bible.johndyer.name/

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 06 2009,07:50)

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,19:45)

TO JODI LEE:

Jodi,
The verse below is Colossians 1:16 in the Greek and notice that the two words are “di” and “eis” meaning “through” and “for.”

τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται

thinker

You JUST don't GET it Jack!

Ephesians 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

Scripture does not say God created all things through having a god son or immortal spirit being create all things, to infer that it was NOT actually CHRIST but whoever Christ was BEFORE, is COMPLETELY irresponsible and ridiculous.

October 5, 2009 at 10:19 pm#148804

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Nick………The words of GOD the FATHER was among us they were (IN) Jesus and He spoke them to Us, but remember He said the words He spoke were (NOT) HIS WORDS. GOD the FATHER was IN JESUS via HIS WORDS or SPIRIT. Same thing. Remember Jesus said the words he spoke (ARE) Spirit and that Spirit WAS GOD”S SPIRIT Speaking through HIM to US> Scripture does not truly support Jesus' preexistence, as JODI has brought out> IMO

gene

October 5, 2009 at 10:40 pm#148807

Participant

Hi Jodi Lee,
I will reply to you tomorrow.

thinker

October 5, 2009 at 11:16 pm#148820

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 06 2009,10:40)

Hi Jodi Lee,
I will reply to you tomorrow.

thinker

Thanks for the update! Hope you have a good night and I will look forward to your post tomorrow!

Jodi

October 6, 2009 at 7:11 am#148922