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Jodi Lee said”
Quote A MESSENGER OF God came to speak the words of God, everything the messenger said therefore was God's words. Your argument to PROVE Jesus existed in the Old Testament as YHWH is truly and utterly pathetic IMO, I'm not sure why I even bother responding at this point, because your argument I find embarrassing for you. The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.The Messenger appeared to Hagar and said that He was “the God who sees me.” Then she said, “for I have SEEN Him who sees me” (Genesis 16:13).
DID YOU CATCH THAT JODI? HAGAR SAID, “FOR I HAVE SEEN HIM WHO SEES ME. HAGAR SAW THE MESSENGER.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Mark 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.” The messenger did not say HIMSELF, that he was the God of Abraham, the messenger was speaking for YHWH, and YHWH IS the God of Abraham. This could not be more OBVIOUS given the fact that the person who appears before Moses is said TO BE a messenger OF the Lord.
I knew this argument was coming and I am ready for it. Please note that Jesus was expounding Moses and the scriptures in this section. He used the same method when He expounded them about the Christ from the scriptures. So you have no argument.You have been disproven.
Now, are you going to deal with Isaiah 48 or not? It clearly says the the Creator was sent by Adonai YHWH and His Spirit. Did the Father send Himself?
thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote The conversation was all for the instruction of Abraham. Just as YHWH knew before hand about Abraham’s descendants, He knew exactly what He was going to do with Sodom and Gomorrah before speaking with Abraham Jodi Lee,
Please read the narrative again. It says nothing at all about YHWH having a conversation with someone for the benefit of Abraham. Abraham was with the three men and YHWH was by Himself contemplating the things recorded in verses 17-21.Quote Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. So Abraham was with the three men when YHWH was contemplating. After YHWH contemplated the three men departed and Abraham came near to YHWH,
Quote Afterwards the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before YHWH. And Abraham came near and said….
The online Hebrew Interlinear says, “As Abraham was coming near….”http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen18.pdf
Abraham went with the three men (vs. 16) and so YHWH was with Himself contemplating. Therefore, all that YHWH said in verses 17-21 was in His thoughts. After the three men departed Abraham came near to YHWH (vs. 22). There was no conversation going on between YHWH and someone else. These were YHWH's inward thoughts. He was by Himself contemplating. Therefore, YHWH in the narrative cannot be the Father for the Father knows all things and need not contemplate a matter. The NEB and the CEV correctly translate it that YHWH was thinking and speaking within Himself. This proves conclusively that YHWH in the narrative is not all knowing. He said TO HIMSELF, “I will go down” and, “I WILL KNOW.”
Now that you have the actual facts in the case and not your revised account please answer my question: How could YHWH in the narrative have been the Father for the Father knows all things? It must have been YHWH-Jesus for He did not know all things.
thinker
Jodi……….You have truly preached the true Gospel of Christ and GOD the Father, don't let the deluded Trinitarians trouble you sis, You are one of the greatest blessings GOD has sent to this Site IMO. O and by the way most Here have no Idea what a Gnostic is or there teachings , or surely those who accuse others of beings Gnostic's would never do that, specially when they themselves hold on to the very teachings of the Gnostic's . Press on Jodi , it is paramount, that the TRINITY be DISPROVED as Well as the FALSE teaching of the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus before His berth, other then on the Plan and will of GOD. Many here do not realize the extent of false teachings these false apostate churches have fostered in the minds of people. There is more then Just the Trinity Lie, the Preexistence LIE is almost as bad. Because it distracts from the ONENESS of OUR (ONE and ONLY) (TRUE) GOD, The Father of US and JESUS and the creator of (ALL) things. Again good post Jodi. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Jodi Lee,
I checked your sources and not one of them supports your treatment of Colossians 1:16. Not one says that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him. Your own sources say “by” and Him “for” Him or “through” Him and “for” Him.There is no “for” Him and “for” Him to be found anywhere. Produce a translation that says what you say.
I will take back my accusation that you are deceitful. That was too strong. But you do grossly mishandle your sources.
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 03 2009,10:23) Jodi……….You have truly preached the true Gospel of Christ and GOD the Father, don't let the deluded Trinitarians trouble you sis, You are one of the greatest blessings GOD has sent to this Site IMO. O and by the way most Here have no Idea what a Gnostic is or there teachings , or surely those who accuse others of beings Gnostic's would never do that, specially when they themselves hold on to the very teachings of the Gnostic's . Press on Jodi , it is paramount, that the TRINITY be DISPROVED as Well as the FALSE teaching of the PREEXISTENCE of Jesus before His berth, other then on the Plan and will of GOD. Many here do not realize the extent of false teachings these false apostate churches have fostered in the minds of people. There is more then Just the Trinity Lie, the Preexistence LIE is almost as bad. Because it distracts from the ONENESS of OUR (ONE and ONLY) (TRUE) GOD, The Father of US and JESUS and the creator of (ALL) things. Again good post Jodi. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Gene,
You are the one who is deluded. If Jodi is preaching the truth then why does she need to revise the narratives of the Bible? Genesis 18 says that Abraham and the three men were not with YHWH when He was contemplating to Himself. Yet Jodi revises the narrative and says that He was having a conversation for Abraham's “benefit.” She has no support from the narrative for her theory. Read the narrative. Abraham went with the three men and YHWH contemplated what He was going to do. It was AFTER the three men left and AFTER YHWH had finished contemplating that Abraham came near to YHWH. The Lord was not conversing with anyone. Jodi re-writes the narrative to fit her ideas.Jodi denies that the Messenger of Jehovah was YHWH when the Exodus 3 narrative clearly says that the Messenger was YHWH. The Messenger appeared as a fire in the midst of the bush and spoke to Moses. Verse 4 says that it was God who spoke to Moses “from the midst of the bush.”. And Moses thought it was YHWH (4:1). IT'S CLEAR DUDE! See for yourself.
It is you and Jodi who are deluded! Jodi has not preached the true gospel. For the gospel is that “God shed His own blood” (Acts 20:28). A mere man cannot be our Savior.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,09:06) The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.
God can also speak through us. You know that.God is an invisible spirit, and he speaks through people and primarily through his only begotten.
Besides, here is what the writer of the Book of Acts says about this event. It is obviously different to the way you see it.
Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Notice the word 'angel'. That word means messenger. This also agrees with the fact that God is invisible and no one has seen him and that Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God and that angels are spirits that reflect God's glory.
It wasn't the Most High God that appeared VISIBLY in the burning bush, but a visible messenger of God.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,11:10) A mere man cannot be our Savior.
I have to correct you with scripture on this one.Romans 5:12-16
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.Death came by one man and life came by one man.
It was through a man that we lost our standing with God and it was through a man that we got it back. This is why Jesus became like us.
Yes God is our saviour, but he sent his son as a man to fulfil that which was lost by a man.
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,10:54) Jodi Lee,
I checked your sources and not one of them supports your treatment of Colossians 1:16. Not one says that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him. Your own sources say “by” and Him “for” Him or “through” Him and “for” Him.There is no “for” Him and “for” Him to be found anywhere. Produce a translation that says what you say.
I will take back my accusation that you are deceitful. That was too strong. But you do grossly mishandle your sources.
thinker
Hi Jack,I think you need to slow down a bit, and it might help if you actually look at the CONTENT of my posts.
I said this on page 37 of the “The messenger of jehovah was jehovah” thread.
“YHWH created heaven and earth for the heavenly man, which Jesus Christ is the FIRST of. In the beginning YHWH created heaven and earth because of or through the heavenly man, and for the heavenly man. The heavenly MAN was NOT a pre-existent spirit son or god son. Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary, BECAME the heavenly man when he died for us and was raised with eternal life.”
I have shown this a few times now,
KJV Verse Count
Greek Word: Diav
Transliterated Word: dia
Book to Display: Colossians
Verse Count: 14
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:'dias' him, and 'dias' him is WHAT the ABOVE SAYS! However I have NEVER explained the interpretation as being for him and for him, or by him and by him, or through him and through him.
Earlier today I said, “BY REASON OF the comming CHRIST, the man born of the seed of David, were all things created! The above scripture mentions NOTHING of a god son creating heaven and earth himself for himself.YHWH created heaven and earth by/through, or rather BY REASON OF, the coming Christ, and YHWH created it FOR the coming Christ! It pleased the FATHER that in CHRIST, the man firstborn of the dead, THAT ALL THE FULLNESS SHOULD DWELL!
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:17) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,09:06) The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.
God can also speak through us. You know that.God is an invisible spirit, and he speaks through people and primarily through his only begotten.
Besides, here is what the writer of the Book of Acts says about this event. It is obviously different to the way you see it.
Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Notice the word 'angel'. That word means messenger. This also agrees with the fact that God is invisible and no one has seen him and that Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God and that angels are spirits that reflect God's glory.
It wasn't the Most High God that appeared VISIBLY in the burning bush, but a visible messenger of God.
t8,
When did I say that God cannot speak through us? The Messenger of Jehovah said “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). To Hagar He said, “I will multiply your seed.”But the messenger Gabriel did not speak like this. He said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will come upon you.” Why didn't the Messenger which came to Hagar and Moses do the same as Gabriel?
thinker
Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2009,19:31) 'dias' him, and 'dias' him is WHAT the ABOVE SAYS! However I have NEVER explained the interpretation as being for him and for him, or by him and by him, or through him and through him.
That is not what the text says!!!Do you even know how to check the Greek words in a verse.
As Jack and myself has pointed out to you the Greek words for “By” and “For” are two different words.
The language that Paul uses and that every translator has translated Col 1:16 as “By or Through” and “for” him are not the same words and in context do not mean the same thing!
Seriously, the English language itself disagrees with your use of the words “by” or “Through”.
The creation was not made through or by that which did not exist. The Holy Spirit “through” (oops there is that word but of course according to you Paul didn't exist yet for the Holy Spirit to work through) Paul could have said “for” him, but in instead he said all things were created “By” (dia) and “for” (eis) him!
Apparantly the meaning of english words mean nothing to you guys! You just invernt definitions for your own doctrines
Going around saying we are going to have a baby, and we built a nursery “by” or “through” our baby. {{{{{Shaking Head}}}}}
WJ
Jodi Lee said:
Quote 'dias' him, and 'dias' him is WHAT the ABOVE SAYS! However I have NEVER explained the interpretation as being for him and for him, or by him and by him, or through him and through him. Huh? If you're not saying “dia” means “for” Him and “for” Him in both instances then you must be saying that it means “through” (by agency of) Him and “for” Him.
Btw,
The Greek text I possess is the text of the NASB which says “di' ” and “eis”. I have been trying to get it online to copy and paste but I keep getting a “link broken” page. I will have to try again tomorrow.Show that YHWH was conversing with someone in the Genesis 18 narrative. It clearly says that Abraham went with the three men. It says that AFTER YHWH contemplated that the three men departed and that Abraham “came near” to YHWH. Therefore, YHWH was by Himself contemplating within Himself when He said, “I will go down and see” and “I will know.”
The NEB and the CEV correctly render it as YHWH “thought to Himself” or He “said to Himself.” There was no one nearby when YHWH spoke this (within Himself). So it was not a conversation for Abraham's benefit. The Father knows all things and would not need to contemplate and acquire knowledge by reasoning and investigation. It was YHWH-Jesus who did not know all things (though He does now that He has been exalted).
Good night,
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 02 2009,19:44) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2009,11:17) Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,09:06) The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.
God can also speak through us. You know that.God is an invisible spirit, and he speaks through people and primarily through his only begotten.
Besides, here is what the writer of the Book of Acts says about this event. It is obviously different to the way you see it.
Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Notice the word 'angel'. That word means messenger. This also agrees with the fact that God is invisible and no one has seen him and that Christ is the visible representation of the invisible God and that angels are spirits that reflect God's glory.
It wasn't the Most High God that appeared VISIBLY in the burning bush, but a visible messenger of God.
t8,
When did I say that God cannot speak through us? The Messenger of Jehovah said “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). To Hagar He said, “I will multiply your seed.”But the messenger Gabriel did not speak like this. He said to Mary, “The power of the Most High will come upon you.” Why didn't the Messenger which came to Hagar and Moses do the same as Gabriel?
thinker
JackTrue! And the messanger that spoke to Moses out of the Bush identified “Himself” as YHWH. No Angel has ever identified themselves as YHWH.
Therefore the Messenger must be Jesus who is YHWH.
This blindness is happened to them accrording to the scriptures!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Jodi Lee:
Quote Apparantly the meaning of english words mean nothing to you guys! You just invernt definitions for your own doctrines Going around saying we are going to have a baby, and we built a nursery “by” or “through” our baby. {{{{{Shaking Head}}}}}
I still get a kick out of that one.
thinker
WorshippingJesus said:
Quote Jack True! And the messanger that spoke to Moses out of the Bush identified “Himself” as YHWH. No Angel has ever identified themselvles as YHWH.
Therefore the Messenger must be Jesus the is YHWH.
This blindness is happened to them accrording to the scriptures!
WJ
Yes and Moses thought the Messenger was YHWH,
” Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you.’” Exodus 4:1
thinkerQuote (thethinker @ Oct. 03 2009,09:06) Jodi Lee said” Quote A MESSENGER OF God came to speak the words of God, everything the messenger said therefore was God's words. Your argument to PROVE Jesus existed in the Old Testament as YHWH is truly and utterly pathetic IMO, I'm not sure why I even bother responding at this point, because your argument I find embarrassing for you. The narrative clearly says that it was God Himself who spoke from the midst of the bush, “So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
Moses thought that it was YHWH Himself who spoke, “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘YHWH has not appeared to you’”, Exodus 4:1). Therefore, the Messenger was God and shared the name YHWH with YHWH.The Messenger appeared to Hagar and said that He was “the God who sees me.” Then she said, “for I have SEEN Him who sees me” (Genesis 16:13).
DID YOU CATCH THAT JODI? HAGAR SAID, “FOR I HAVE SEEN HIM WHO SEES ME. HAGAR SAW THE MESSENGER.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Mark 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.” The messenger did not say HIMSELF, that he was the God of Abraham, the messenger was speaking for YHWH, and YHWH IS the God of Abraham. This could not be more OBVIOUS given the fact that the person who appears before Moses is said TO BE a messenger OF the Lord.
I knew this argument was coming and I am ready for it. Please note that Jesus was expounding Moses and the scriptures in this section. He used the same method when He expounded them about the Christ from the scriptures. So you have no argument.You have been disproven.
Now, are you going to deal with Isaiah 48 or not? It clearly says the the Creator was sent by Adonai YHWH and His Spirit. Did the Father send Himself?
thinker
I just can't fathom how you cannot understand what MESSENGER means.I have rightly understood Genesis 18! I have not made anything to fit my doctrine.
Genesis 18:1 And Jehovah appeareth unto him among the oaks of Mamre, and he is sitting at the opening of the tent, about the heat of the day; 2 and he lifteth up his eyes and looketh, and lo, three men standing by him, and he seeth, and runneth to meet them from the opening of the tent, and boweth himself towards the earth, 3 And he saith, `My Lord, if, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, do not, I pray thee, pass on from thy servant;4 let, I pray thee, a little water be accepted, and wash your feet, and recline under the tree; 5 and I bring a piece of bread, and support ye your heart; afterwards pass on, for therefore have ye passed over unto your servant;' and they say, `So mayest thou do as thou has spoken.' 6 And Abraham hasteth towards the tent, unto Sarah, and saith, `Hasten three measures of flour-meal, knead, and make cakes;' 7 and Abraham ran unto the herd, and taketh a son of the herd, tender and good, and giveth unto the young man, and he hasteth to prepare it; 8 and he taketh butter and milk, and the son of the herd which he hath prepared, and setteth before them; and he is standing by them under the tree, and they do eat.
9 And they say unto him, `Where is Sarah thy wife?' and he saith, `Lo — in the tent;' 10 and he saith, `returning I return unto thee, about the time of life, and lo, to Sarah thy wife a son.' 11 And Sarah is hearkening at the opening of the tent, which is behind him; 12 and Abraham and Sarah are aged, entering into days — the way of women hath ceased to be to Sarah; 13 and Sarah laugheth in her heart, saying, `After I have waxed old I have had pleasure! — my lord also is old!' 14 And Jehovah saith unto Abraham, `Why is this? Sarah hath laughed, saying, Is it true really — I bear — and I am aged? Is any thing too wonderful for Jehovah? at the appointed time I return unto thee, about the time of life, and Sarah hath a son.' 15 And Sarah denieth, saying, `I did not laugh;' for she hath been afraid; and He saith, `Nay, but thou didst laugh.'
16 And the men rise from thence, and look on the face of Sodom, and Abraham is going with them to send them away; 17 and Jehovah said, `Am I concealing from Abraham that which I am doing, 18 and Abraham certainly becometh a nation great and mighty, and blessed in him have been all nations of the earth? 19 for I have known him, that he commandeth his children, and his house after him (and they have kept the way of Jehovah), to do righteousness and judgment, that Jehovah may bring on Abraham that which He hath spoken concerning him.'
Jack you truly think you have disproven me? You think in the above passage YHWH has SPOKEN to Himself, and NOT the three men? You think that YHWH here is Jesus who does not KNOW all things, but yet we SEE that He KNOWS the FUTURE of Abraham and Abraham's descendants? So let me get this strait, you think that YHWH knows the future about Abraham but He does NOT know about the future of Sodom and Gomorrah that is about to take place by His own hand?
There is NOT a single scripture in the bible that talks about a god son being named YHWH becoming Jesus. There exists NO messenger of YHWH who is also YHWH. The Father sends His Spirit unto people, as we see He sends His Spirit of Wisdom. YHWH NEVER says He is going to change himself into a human and send himself. YHWH, BEFORE time, promised to SEND a man to be our savior.
You must have missed my post on Isaiah 48, here it is,
My discussion of Proverbs 8 from my previous post is separate from my understanding of Isaiah 48:16
Isaiah shows several times that YHWH created the heavens and the earth, he even shows us that YHWH did it thyself alone.
Isa 37:16 `Jehovah of Hosts, God of Israel, inhabiting the cherubs, Thou [art] God Himself — Thyself alone — to all kingdoms of the earth, Thou hast made the heavens and the earth.
What do we see in Isaiah 48:11,
For My sake, for Mine own sake, I do it, For how is it polluted? And Mine honour to another I give not. 12 Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called one, I am He, I am first, and I am last; 13 Also, My hand hath founded earth, And My right hand stretched out the heavens, I am calling unto them, they stand together. 14 Be gathered all of you, and hear, Who among them did declare these things? Jehovah hath loved him, He doth His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm is on the Chaldeans. 15 I — I have spoken, y
ea, I have called him, I have brought him in, And he hath made prosperous his way.YHWH our Heavenly Father is speaking and the he of whom He is speaking of is the man Jesus. The Father is calling the people that they stand together and He has chosen to call the people through the man Jesus our Christ. The people shall be gathered together and listen to the Christ DECLARE the works of his Father. YHWH the Father hath love Jesus, and Jesus doth the Father’s pleasure! YHWH our heavenly Father has spoken and has called Jesus and brought him forth and has caused Jesus to prosper in his ways.
Jesus says,
16 Come ye near unto me, hear this, Not from the beginning in secret spake I, From the time of its being, there am I, And now the Lord Jehovah hath sent me, and His Spirit.
Isaiah is quoting Jesus, the man born of the seed of David, by a VISION, not through a pre-existent immortal god Jesus. Notice how it shows Jesus is speaking FROM the time that he was sent, obviously Jesus was not yet born during the time of Isaiah, this is EXACTLY why Isaiah is KNOWN as being YHWH’s PROPHET!
There exists NO pre-existing Jesus in the above, only a perfect example of Isaiah truly being a prophet!
However, Jack teaches that Jesus pre-existed as YHWH, and he wants us to believe that as it says YHWH sent, that means that He was actually sending part of himself. He wants us to believe that the person who was sent, was sent by himself.
Does Jesus say that he sent himself?
Does he say that he spoke his own words?
Does he say that he came to do his own will?
Jodi Lee said:
Quote I have rightly understood Genesis 18! I have not made anything to fit my doctrine.Jack you truly think you have disproven me? You think in the above passage YHWH has SPOKEN to Himself, and NOT the three men? You think that YHWH here is Jesus who does not KNOW all things, but yet we SEE that He KNOWS the FUTURE of Abraham and Abraham's descendants? So let me get this strait, you think that YHWH knows the future about Abraham but He does NOT know about the future of Sodom and Gomorrah that is about to take place by His own hand? … Jodi Lee,
You have revised the narrative of Genesis 18. It clearly says that the three men looked toward Sodom and that Abraham went with them to send them on their way. (vs. 16) It was then that YHWH said within Himself the thoughts recorded in verses 17-21. After YHWH finished His contemplations Abraham “came near” to Him (vs. 22). So Abraham was NOT with YHWH when He was contemplating. Neither were the men. Abraham had sent them on their way.It's clear! This is why the NEB and the CEV correctly rendered it that YHWH “thought to Himself” or “said to Himself.” YHWH contemplated and investigated and arrived at an accurate knowledge of the situation. Therefore, YHWH was NOT the Father in that instance but Jesus who shares the name YHWH. The Father knows all things and need not contemplate and investigate. Your idea that YHWH had a conversation is totally without merit and that He would contemplate for Abraham's benefit is silly.
You are clearly revising the narrative to fit your Gnostic theory of God.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 03 2009,11:59) Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2009,19:31) 'dias' him, and 'dias' him is WHAT the ABOVE SAYS! However I have NEVER explained the interpretation as being for him and for him, or by him and by him, or through him and through him.
That is not what the text says!!!Do you even know how to check the Greek words in a verse.
As Jack and myself has pointed out to you the Greek words for “By” and “For” are two different words.
The language that Paul uses and that every translator has translated Col 1:16 as “By or Through” and “for” him are not the same words and in context do not mean the same thing!
Seriously, the English language itself disagrees with your use of the words “by” or “Through”.
The creation was not made through or by that which did not exist. The Holy Spirit “through” (oops there is that word but of course according to you Paul didn't exist yet for the Holy Spirit to work through) Paul could have said “for” him, but in instead he said all things were created “By” (dia) and “for” (eis) him!
Apparantly the meaning of english words mean nothing to you guys! You just invernt definitions for your own doctrines
Going around saying we are going to have a baby, and we built a nursery “by” or “through” our baby. {{{{{Shaking Head}}}}}
WJ
WJ, would you mind going to page 6 and checking my three posts, where I have links referencing the Greek.What do you use, is there an online site that you could refer me to, or is the Lexicon from crosswalk. com that I use alright.
The lexicon I use says that 'dias', can mean BECAUSE OF. The English dictionary says that 'through', also means BECAUSE OF, and when I use the thesaurus for 'through', BECAUSE OF comes up.
So when I say that I created a room through Molly it most certainly can mean that I created a room because of Molly.
Our Heavenly Father YHWH, created heaven and earth through Jesus CHRIST, meaning He created it BECAUSE OF CHRIST. There exists NO god son, ONLY Jesus of Nazareth, who is the MAN MADE CHRIST by YHWH our Heavenly Father.
This is a really interesting debate, my view can be found here. 4th post down.
by g1722 ἐν en
him g846 αὐτός autos
were g2936 κτίζω ktizō
all things g3956 πᾶς pas
created, g2936 κτίζω ktizō
that are in g1722 ἐν en
heaven, g3772 οὐρανός ouranos
and g2532 καί kai
that are in g1909 ἐπί epi
earth, g1093 γῆ gē
visible g3707 ὁρατός horatos
and g2532 καί kai
invisible, g517 ἀόρατος aoratos
whether g1535 εἴτε eite
[they be] thrones, g2362 θρόνος thronos
or g1535 εἴτε eite
dominions, g2963 κυριότης kyriotēs
or g1535 εἴτε eite
principalities, g746 ἀρχή archē
or g1535 εἴτε eite
powers: g1849 ἐξουσία exousia
all things g3956 πᾶς pas
were created g2936 κτίζω ktizō
by g1223 διά dia ————————————–>dia “by or through”
him, g846 αὐτός autos
and g2532 καί kai
for g1519 εἰς eis————————————–>eis “for”
him: g846 αὐτός autosIn context the words do not mean the same thing or the passage makes no sense!
WJ
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