- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Thinker……..The Gnostic's belief is almost the exact same as the Trinitarians, they both believe Jesus is a GOD, who came from the GOD”S of the Pelora, and appeared as a man on earth . They had a multiplicity of GODS as you Trinitarians do. the (ONLY) difference between them and You trinitarians is they believed Jesus only appeared Human but was really a GOD in DISGUISE , They Knew no one was so gullible to believe them if they said Jesus was 100& Man and 100% GOD, so they taught that Jesus was a GOD that Only Appeared as a MAN. I don't see much difference between the Gnostic and TRINITARIANS, really. Both are LIES Taught by false religions. IMO
gene
I do agree with your post brother Gene. Trinitarians often beat the bush but can never achieve their goal.
Adam …………> thanks Adam Hope you and your family are doing well, Miss your Posts Brother.
peace and love to you and your Adam…………………gene
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,12:06) Jodi Lee said: Quote In the OT God's messengers roamed earth watching over the twelve tribes. These messengers reported back to YHWH and then the messengers rewarded and punished the people according to how YHWH saw fit.
Exactly! This proves that YHWH in some instances cannot be a reference to the Father for the Father knows ALL THINGS. The Father does not need for angels to inform Him of anything.Jodi Lee:
Quote The adversary in the book of Job, is a messenger who fully follows the WILL and direction of YHWH. YHWH did NOT ALLOW some rebellious demon to punish Job to prove a point to the rebellious demon how truly righteous Job was.
You are getting off the subject. We are in agreement that there was no personal “satan” accusing Job before YHWH. Satan was bound in the garden when he was cursed and remained bound until Jesus appeared in the flesh. The Hebrew word is “sawtawn” and simply means “accuser.” It was a human accuser who came to YHWH accusing Job.Jodi Lee:
Quote I am still waiting for you to prove to me how exactly YHWH is Jesus? You have not shown how through the scriptures I gave in my last post, that Jesus could still be YHWH.
Of course you're still waiting for me to prove it. But I can't prove anything to one who thinks the Father's own words are just “little nuggets” and says that she prepared her baby's room THROUGH her baby.It was YHWH Himself who advocated for Job with God as I have shown. We don't see anyone advocating for Job throughout the whole book except YHWH! He referred to Himself in the first person and to God in the third person,
Job 40:8-9 (New International Version):
8 “Would you discredit MY justice?
Would you condemn ME to justify yourself?9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like HIS?What do you do with this? Only YHWH is pleading Job's case with God in the book. And He distinguishes Himself from God by the first and third persons. I have shown this before from Isaiah 48 in reference to the Creator.
Quote 12 “Listen to ME, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 MY own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and MY right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.14 “Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out HIS purpose against Babylon;
HIS arm will be against the Babylonians.15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and HE will succeed in HIS mission.16 “Come near ME and listen to this:
“From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there.”
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with HIS Spirit.Note that the Creator CLEARLY distinguishes Himself from YHWH in this passage. He said “I am the First and the Last” and that the earth and the heavens were created by “MY hands.” Then He calls Himself YHWH's “ally” and “HIS arm.”
The Creator clearly says that He is YHWH's ALLY AND HIS ARM in the destruction of Babylon. So there is no discrepancy between Psalm 102 which says that YHWH created with His own hands and Hebrews 1 where the Father said that creation took place by the Son's own hands. FOR THE SON IS GOD'S OWN HANDS! He is YHWH's ARM that would destroy Babylon.
The distinction between the Creator and YHWH is most clear when the Creator says, “I am sent by Adonai YHWH and HIS Spirit” (vs. 16).
We see in Job that YHWH Himself is Job's Advocate. There is no other throughout the entire story who pleads with God in Job's behalf. And we see that YHWH distinguishes Himself from God by the first and third persons in the same manner that the Creator distinguishes Himself from YHWH in Isaiah 48. Therefore, the name YHWH is intercahngeable and may sometimes refer to Jesus.
Jeremiah clearly said that the Messiah's name shall be called, “YHWH our righteousness.” YHWH's name is shared by the Messiah and the Gnostics and the Arains cannot take it away from Him! YHWH Jesus was Job's Advocate as He is ours today. For there is only ONE Advocate between God and all men.
thinker
Hi Jack,The reporting is for the sake of the MESSENGER and for the people to understand who it is that's fully in CHARGE, YHWH. So I don't agree with you, YHWH is always a reference to the Father from my understanding. Maybe 'reporting' is not the perfect word, none of the less, the reason why messengers must 'present themselves before the lord' reporting what they see, is not so that YHWH knows, it is to instruct the messengers on what THEY PERCEIVE. Messengers and Christ are not perfect in that they know everything, they are perfect in that they know they need to consult and follow the will of YHWH before they do anything.
I am not getting off the subject my point was to prove that Job was not speaking about the Christ, the human Messiah, he was referring to angels, hoping that there might be ONE that would agree with him that he was indeed righteous. The adversary known unto Job, one of God's faithful messengers, thought that Job needed some character building. Israelites lived their lives knowing that angels were watching them taking an account of everything that they did. Job was hoping that one was his friend and advocate, who saw him as he saw himself.
So, I am no where near the point of agreeing with you that Job 16 is speaking of a pre-existent Christ.
I created my baby's room through the knowledge that my baby was coming, just like YHWH created heaven and earth THROUGH knowing that the Christ would come.
YHWH exists with powers, collectively these are referred to as the Holy Spirit, however we see in the bible particular powers of YHWH being referred to individually as separate spirits.
Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out, And understanding lift up her voice? 2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, Beside the way, where the paths meet. 3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, At the entrance of the doors: 4 “To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men. 5 O
you simple ones, understand prudence, And you fools, be of an understanding heart. 6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things, And from the opening of my lips will come right things; 7 For my mouth will speak truth; Wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. 9 They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 For wisdom is better than rubies, And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth. 17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver. 20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, 21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”
The Spirit of wisdom is not a separate person from YHWH, it is a part of YHWH. When you see first person and third person being used within passages, that in no way indicates that YHWH is made up of separate people. YHWH powers are often personified in scripture.
Jack I am still confused at how you view YHWH? Clearly YHWH is the Father, but you believe He is also Jesus. Does not YHWH have ONE Will though? Jesus has a separate will from the Father, truly it does not make sense that YHWH is made up of two persons who have their own wills. Jesus said that he came in his Father's NAME, the sacred name is YHWH, if Jesus were also YHWH then he would have came in his OWN name. The person who said they would send Christ into the world in the OT was YHWH. Jesus said that he did NOT send himself but his Father sent him. This makes the bible very clear that Jesus is not YHWH, he is the SON of YHWH!
Hi Jodi,
In you doctrine you had to call an adversary a faithful messenger of God?
Interesting.But God is good and not of evil.
Is this the same one who finishes up in the fire of gehenna?
Hi Jodi,
Was this faithful servant, the adversary, the one scripture calls the accuser of the brethren?
Perhaps he was the one who accused Joshua in Zech 3 where he was rebuked by God?
Sounds like a different god from ours to have such merchants of evil in his ranks.Hi Jodi,
So would you hire a lawyer who was against you and who thought you needed a little character building?Advocates stick up for us and highlight our good points unlike our perhaps more correct adversaries.
Hi Jodi,
The faithful angelic servants of God do His will always, always, always.None has free rein to do what he likes and none are given the job of correcting men if they feel so inclined.
Adversaries are adversarial to God, rebellious ones, who also attack His servants.
Hi Jodi,
The messengers of God serve those in Christ.[Heb1.14]Like Joshua in Zech 3 we are not reliant on our own righteousness or lack of it but on the garment of Christ's.
With friends like your advocate of Job who needs enemies?
Nick……….You deceive yourself if you think GOD does not send adversaries at time to correct HIS childern. . I could list many scripture that Shows Where He often did this with Isreal for correction like He did for Job. You say GOD does not bring Evil on People you are totally wrong. What do you think happened to King David when He numbered Israel , Who brought that Evil on them was it the “devil” or GOD. Jodi has properly shown GOD at work often in Peoples by using Pain and Evil on them. IMO
gene
Hi Jodi,
I want to say first that you have lost the argument with WJ on the issue of Christ's pre-existence. You lost it when you said that the Father's creating through Christ was like your setting up your expectant baby's room through your baby. This is sheer nonsense! It would help your image to concede the pre-existence part of this issue.Jodi Lee said:
Quote The reporting is for the sake of the MESSENGER and for the people to understand who it is that's fully in CHARGE, YHWH.
This makes no sense because there are many passages which say that the reporting was for the sake of YHWH to acquire knowledge.Quote I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. (Gen. 18:21)
There is not one scintilla of evidence that YHWH did this for the benefit of angels or anyone else.. YHWH said, “I will now come down now and see.” YHWH went down PERSONALLY to see. How could this be for the “benefit” of the angels?
As a consequence of His action He said, “I will know.” You have no proof at all for your theory.It can be demonstrated from the new testament that the Father knows all things. Therefore, the One who is called YHWH in Genesis 18 is YHWH-Jesus because YHWH-Jesus did not know all things before. But He knows all things now.
Jodi Lee:
Quote I am not getting off the subject my point was to prove that Job was not speaking about the Christ, the human Messiah, he was referring to angels, hoping that there might be ONE that would agree with him that he was indeed righteous.
Job was not “hoping” that an angel would agree with him and advocate his case before God. Come on! Job was not “hoping” at all. He explicitly said, “My Advocate IS NOW in heaven” (16:19-21). He knew that he had an Advocate in heaven. Job was not “hoping” at all. Where do you get this stuff? He said that he indeed had an advocate in heaven. The only person who advocated for Him in the whole story was YHWH. Therefore, Jobs's Advocate was YHWH-Jesus.Jodi Lee:
Quote The Spirit of wisdom is not a separate person from YHWH, it is a part of YHWH. When you see first person and third person being used within passages, that in no way indicates that YHWH is made up of separate people. YHWH powers are often personified in scripture.
Did YHWH the Father send Himself? Quote 12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13My hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: He will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
Note that the Person doing the speaking says, “I am the First and the Last.” He said that “MY hand laid the foundation of the earth” and that “MY right hand spanned the heavens.” It's all first person. Then He refers to YHWH in the third person saying that He will do “HIS pleasure in Babylon.”
And why did He say that “I am sent by Adonai-YHWH and HIS Spirit?” There is no way you can make the first and third persons here the same. Did YHWH the Father send Himself?
thinker
thinker………Now God the FATHER sent HIMSELF . So Jesus is NOT the unique Begotten SON Right. And BTW Sure GOD did thing according to His future Plans for Man kind. You Saying Jodi's example of Preparing thing in advance for what was going to happen was wrong , is pure Hog Wash. GOD does many things in advance for the future of us all. Man this trinitarian thing is really frying your minds. Dump it all and start over without biases taught by the TRINITY and see what a difference it will make.
gene
Hi TT,
There are no persons in God but the Father is God.[jn8.54]
God sends forth His Spirit and they are created and He renews the face of the earth.[ ps104]Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 29 2009,03:43) Hi Jodi,
I want to say first that you have lost the argument with WJ on the issue of Christ's pre-existence. You lost it when you said that the Father's creating through Christ was like your setting up your expectant baby's room through your baby. This is sheer nonsense! It would help your image to concede the pre-existence part of this issue.Jodi Lee said:
Quote The reporting is for the sake of the MESSENGER and for the people to understand who it is that's fully in CHARGE, YHWH.
This makes no sense because there are many passages which say that the reporting was for the sake of YHWH to acquire knowledge.Quote I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. (Gen. 18:21)
There is not one scintilla of evidence that YHWH did this for the benefit of angels or anyone else.. YHWH said, “I will now come down now and see.” YHWH went down PERSONALLY to see. How could this be for the “benefit” of the angels? As a consequence of His action He said, “I will know.” You have no proof at all for your theory.It can be demonstrated from the new testament that the Father knows all things. Therefore, the One who is called YHWH in Genesis 18 is YHWH-Jesus because YHWH-Jesus did not know all things before. But He knows all things now.
Jodi Lee:
Quote I am not getting off the subject my point was to prove that Job was not speaking about the Christ, the human Messiah, he was referring to angels, hoping that there might be ONE that would agree with him that he was indeed righteous.
Job was not “hoping” that an angel would agree with him and advocate his case before God. Come on! Job was not “hoping” at all. He explicitly said, “My Advocate IS NOW in heaven” (16:19-21). He knew that he had an Advocate in heaven. Job was not “hoping” at all. Where do you get this stuff? He said that he indeed had an advocate in heaven. The only person who advocated for Him in the whole story was YHWH. Therefore, Jobs's Advocate was YHWH-Jesus.Jodi Lee:
Quote The Spirit of wisdom is not a separate person from YHWH, it is a part of YHWH. When you see first person and third person being used within passages, that in no way indicates that YHWH is made up of separate people. YHWH powers are often personified in scripture.
Did YHWH the Father send Himself? Quote 12Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. 13My hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: He will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
Note that the Person doing the speaking says, “I am the First and the Last.” He said that “MY hand laid the foundation of the earth” and that “MY right hand spanned the heavens.” It's all first person. Then He refers to YHWH in the third person saying that He will do “HIS pleasure in Babylon.”
And why did He say that “I am sent by Adonai-YHWH and HIS Spirit?” There is no way you can make the first and third persons here the same. Did YHWH the Father send Himself?
thinker
Jack,YHWH sends His Spirit unto people. The Spirit of Wisdom is the perfect example. SHE is YHWH, and YHWH alone is wise. The Spirit of wisdom comes to us as truthful information, she is SENT from YHWH and it is received into our brains. This is exactly HOW the Spirit of the Father is in us, when we take on His truth and live by it. She can be sent, anytime, anywhere, to anyone YHWH desires. By this the Father has sent Himself, it is His information IN us, making Him in us. Can you grasp that understanding Jack?
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom call? And understanding give forth her voice? 2 At the head of high places by the way, Between the paths she hath stood, 3 At the side of the gates, at the mouth of the city, The entrance of the openings, she crieth aloud, 4 `Unto you, O men, I call, And my voice is unto the sons of men.
She is YHWH, she is the Spirit of wisdom and understanding.
22 Jehovah possessed me — the beginning of His way, Before His works since then. 23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.
The Spirit of Wisdom is the Spirit of YHWH. However we see the Spirit talk separate from YHWH as if she were a separate person, but she is not.
24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy [with] waters, 25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth. 26 While He had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world. 27 In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep, 28 In His strengthening clouds above, In His making strong fountains of the deep, 29 In His setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His command, In His decreeing the foundations of earth, 30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight — day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times, 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth, And my delights [are] with the sons of men.
The Spirit of Wisdom delighted in the sons of men. YHWH our Heavenly Father, is truly wise, He created heaven and earth through His wisdom, and that wisdom delighted in it’s work. One of the WISE things YHWH created was the ABILITY for man to become wise in the ways of God, being able to consume His wisdom. This
is how and why we see the word spirit used in the manner that we do. That of which is in the Father can be added to us, God can transcend His knowledge and His character, and even His powers to man. That which is of the Father that can be added to man is often referred as a Spirit.32 And now, ye sons, hearken to me, Yea, happy are they who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and slight not. 34 O the happiness of the man hearkening to me, To watch at my doors day by day, To watch at the door-posts of my entrance. 35 For whoso is finding me, hath found life, And bringeth out good-will from Jehovah. 36 And whoso is missing me, is wronging his soul, All hating me have loved death!
When we listen and follow the Spirit of wisdom, we are not listening to some separate person YHWH made into wisdom, we are listening to His Spirit and adding to ourselves, taking in His knowledge and following His ways.
Ex 36:1 And Bezaleel, and Aholiab, and every wise-hearted man, in whom Jehovah hath given wisdom and understanding to know to do every work of the service of the sanctuary, have done according to all that Jehovah commanded.
Ex 36:2 And Moses calleth unto Bezaleel, and unto Aholiab, and unto every wise-hearted man in whose heart Jehovah hath given wisdom, every one whom his heart lifted up, to come near unto the work to do it.
De 34:9 And Joshua son of Nun is full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him, and the sons of Israel hearken unto him, and do as Jehovah commanded Moses.
1Ki 5:12 And Jehovah hath given wisdom to Solomon as He spake to him, and there is peace between Hiram and Solomon, and they make a covenant both of them.
1Ch 22:12 Only, Jehovah give to thee wisdom and understanding, and charge thee concerning Israel, even to keep the law of Jehovah thy God;
2Ch 2:12 And Huram saith, `Blessed is Jehovah, God of Israel, who made the heavens and the earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, knowing wisdom and understanding, who doth build a house for Jehovah, and a house for his kingdom.
Ps 104:24 How many have been Thy works, O Jehovah, All of them in wisdom Thou hast made, Full is the earth of thy possessions.
Pr 2:6 For Jehovah giveth wisdom, From His mouth knowledge and understanding.
Pr 3:19 Jehovah by wisdom did found the earth, He prepared the heavens by understanding.
Isa 11:2 Rested on him hath the Spirit of Jehovah, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and fear of Jehovah.
I cannot believe we are still going over the word THROUGH! Truly amazing HOW BLATANT your denial of scripture IS. The word for through in the bible is translated from a word that is also rendered MANY times in the bible as FOR. The dictionary and thesaurus as well renders the word THROUGH as meaning 'for or 'because of'. If I say that I created a room through my daughter, that MEANS the SAME thing as me saying I created a room FOR my daughter or because of my daughter. You seriously want to DENY Jack, that makes sense?
Scripture is very clear that YHWH is omnipresent,
Psalms 139:1 To the Overseer. — A Psalm by David. Jehovah, Thou hast searched me, and knowest. 2 Thou — Thou hast known my sitting down, And my rising up, Thou hast attended to my thoughts from afar. 3 My path and my couch Thou hast fanned, And [with] all my ways hast been acquainted. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, Lo, O Jehovah, Thou hast known it all! 5 Behind and before Thou hast besieged me, And Thou dost place on me Thy hand. 6 Knowledge too wonderful for me, It hath been set on high, I am not able for it.7 Whither do I go from Thy Spirit? And whither from Thy face do I flee? 8 If I ascend the heavens — there Thou [art], And spread out a couch in Sheol, lo, Thee!
Did YHWH have to ask questions TRULY because He didn’t KNOW?
Genesis 3:9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?' 10 and he saith, `Thy sound I have heard in the garden, and I am afraid, for I am naked, and I hide myself.' 11 And He saith, `Who hath declared to thee that thou [art] naked? of the tree of which I have commanded thee not to eat, hast thou eaten?' 12 and the man saith, `The woman whom Thou didst place with me — she hath given to me of the tree — and I do eat.' 13 And Jehovah God saith to the woman, `What is this thou hast done?' and the woman saith, `The serpent hath caused me to forget — and I do eat.'
Genesis 4:6 And Jehovah saith unto Cain, `Why hast thou displeasure? and why hath thy countenance fallen? 7 Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.' 8 And Cain saith unto Abel his brother,`Let us go into the field;' and it cometh to pass in their being in the field, that Cain riseth up against Abel his brother, and slayeth him. 9 And Jehovah saith unto Cain, `Where is Abel thy brother?' and he saith, `I have not known; my brother's keeper — I?' 10 And He saith, `What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood is crying unto Me from the ground; 11 and now, cursed art thou from the ground, which hath opened her mouth to receive the blood of thy brother from thy hand;
Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.
YHWH is speaking for Abrahams sake for the reason of moving a conversation into a certain direction. When you say certain things it invokes certain thoughts to those you are speaking to. This was the intent of what YHWH said, it was not because He actually needed to come down to KNOW what was going on.
23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.” 27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?” So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.” 29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?” So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.” 30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?” So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of te
n.” 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.YHWH knows the hearts and minds of men, He can see inside every one of us. He does not have to COME down from heaven to actually be able to read us. YHWH is omnipresent, as David declared, YHWH KNEW IT ALL, every word that a man speaks, He knows.
Jack you have NOT explained to me WHO YHWH is. YHWH is in fact the holy name that Jesus refers to as being the Father is it not?
Hi Jodi,
God is in heaven[mt6] but manifests where He has dominion, which is everywhere but in the hearts of men yet subject to the god of this world.
His holy scriptures[lk11] and His creation manifest His wisdomJodi Lee said:
Quote YHWH sends His Spirit unto people. The Spirit of Wisdom is the perfect example. SHE is YHWH, and YHWH alone is wise. The Spirit of wisdom comes to us as truthful information, she is SENT from YHWH and it is received into our brains. This is exactly HOW the Spirit of the Father is in us, when we take on His truth and live by it. She can be sent, anytime, anywhere, to anyone YHWH desires. By this the Father has sent Himself, it is His information IN us, making Him in us. Can you grasp that understanding Jack?
What has this to do with our discussion! No I do not grasp it. Sorry!Jodi Lee:
Quote I cannot believe we are still going over the word THROUGH! Truly amazing HOW BLATANT your denial of scripture IS. The word for through in the bible is translated from a word that is also rendered MANY times in the bible as FOR.
Nonsense! Hebrews 1:3 says that all things were created “through” the Son meaning “by agency.” This is substantiated by verse 10 inwhich the Father attributed the creation to the Son's own hands. IT'S ALL ABOUT CONTEXT!Jodi Lee:
Quote Did YHWH have to ask questions TRULY because He didn’t KNOW? YHWH is speaking for Abrahams sake for the reason of moving a conversation into a certain direction. When you say certain things it invokes certain thoughts to those you are speaking to. This was the intent of what YHWH said, it was not because He actually needed to come down to KNOW what was going on.
Jodi, all that YHWH says from verses 17-21 is to Himself. YHWH was reasoning with Himself (NEB). Abraham did not know YHWH's thoughts. So how could this have been for Abraham's benefit and to invoke a certain response from Abraham? It was to Himself that YHWH thought, “I will go down …and I will know.” You are re-writing the narrative to fit your personal views.You give Psalm 139:1 as a proof text. But note that it says “You have SEARCHED me and have known….” The knowledge came by searching. Your views are problematic for YHWH said that He was grieved that He had made man. Originally He said that everything He made was “very good.” Then He had a change of heart and became “grieved” for what He did.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Jack you have NOT explained to me WHO YHWH is. YHWH is in fact the holy name that Jesus refers to as being the Father is it not?
Come on! I have said several times that the Messenger of YHWH was YHWH-Jesus and that Job's Advocate was YHWH-Jesus. I have repeatedly said that it was YHWH-Jesus who was speaking both in Genesis 18 and in Isaiah 48.Your whole theology is dependent upon the manipulation of plain language. You say that “one” God means what it says. But you allow for “one” King of kings” and “one” Advocate to include more than one. This is called equivocation. You dismiss the use of the first and third persons when it is convenient for you. The creator of Isaiah 48:12 says, “I am sent by the Lord God and HIS Spirit. You deny that the Creator and Adonai-YHWH are two persons and you infer that YHWH the Father sent Himself. Answer Jodi: Did YHWH the Father send Himself?
You deny that “through” means “by agency” in Hebrews 1 when the context clearly demands it. You say it means “for” and gave a ridiculous example. You said that you prepared your baby's room “through” (that is, “for”) your baby. But it says that God SPOKE THROUGH His Son and also created THROUGH Him. Did God speak “for” His Son? Or was it BY AGENCY of the Son that the Father spoke? Verse 10 says that the Father attributed the creation to the Son's own hands. Therefore, “through” means “by agency.” The context demands it. You select to render it “for” solely on presuppositional grounds. You go against ALL the translations. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian is against you. It says this,
Quote …has at the end of these days spoken to us BY MEANS OF a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and THROUGH whom He made the system of things .
There it is! You even go against an anti-trinitarian translation. You go against all the translations and all the scholars. You totally ignore the context and all the translations and all the scholars for convenience sake.Then there is the problem in Colossians 1:16. Paul said that “all things were created through Him and for Him.”
If “through” meant “for” as you say then Paul said this: “All things were created for Him and for Him.” This makes no sense! It is clear that Paul meant that all things were created by agency of Him and for Him. To say that Paul meant that all things were created “for” Him and “for” Him is ludicrous.You have really butchered up language!
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
