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Job 16:19-21 says:
19 Even NOW my witness is in heaven;
my Advocate is on high.20 My Intercessor IS my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;21 on behalf of a man He pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend. NIVHeaven Net friends,
Jesus Christ pre-existed His birth. Note that Job said that his Advocate is in heaven “even NOW.” Job knew his Advocate for he said, “He IS my friend.” He said that his Advocate “pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend.”The apostle John said that our Advocate is Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). And Paul said that there is ony ONE mediator between God and man, “Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Okay Jodi Lee and Gene, if Christ was not pre-existent then who was Job's advocate? There is only ONE advocate or would you say two? If you say two then show it.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 25 2009,11:02) Job 16:19-21 says: 19 Even NOW my witness is in heaven;
my Advocate is on high.20 My Intercessor IS my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;21 on behalf of a man He pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend. NIVHeaven Net friends,
Jesus Christ pre-existed His birth. Note that Job said that his Advocate is in heaven “even NOW.” Job knew his Advocate for he said, “He IS my friend.” He said that his Advocate “pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend.”The apostle John said that our Advocate is Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). And Paul said that there is ony ONE mediator between God and man, “Jesus Christ the righteous.”
Okay Jodi Lee and Gene, if Christ was not pre-existent then who was Job's advocate? There is only ONE advocate or would you say two? If you say two then show it.
thinker
JackThere are many nuggets like that, that prove Jesus preexistence, but Jesus said…
He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’*” Mk 4:11, 12
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2009,14:33) Hi TT,
“I will send another advocate…”
The Spirit has always been of God
NHThere you have it.
The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
Three = Trinity, whether you like it or not, you believe in a Trinity of sorts!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2009,14:59) Hi WJ,
You glory in man's foolish and arrogant derivations.
The Spirit proceeds from God.
NHDoes this mean you do not believe in the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit”?
WJ
Hi WJ,
I fellowship with God and His son in the Spirit they share.
You should abide in scripture and enjoy the same spiritual communion.
These man made fabrications like trinity only serve to separate you from the Father and His son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2009,15:03) Hi WJ,
I fellowship with God and His son in the Spirit they share.
You should abide in scripture and enjoy the same spiritual communion.
These man made fabrications like trinity only serve to separate you from the Father and His son.
NHYou just confessed a “trinity” again.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
Praise God there is hope for you!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,06:33) Hi TT,
“I will send another advocate…”
The Spirit has always been of God
Nick,
I am confused. I thought you believed in the pre-existence of Christ?thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 26 2009,07:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2009,15:03) Hi WJ,
I fellowship with God and His son in the Spirit they share.
You should abide in scripture and enjoy the same spiritual communion.
These man made fabrications like trinity only serve to separate you from the Father and His son.
NHYou just confessed a “trinity” again.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
Praise God there is hope for you!
WJ
Yes WJ,
Nick believes in “a” trinity. He may not believe it as the trinitarians explain it. But that there is “a” trinity is inescapable.thinker
Truly this is getting embarrassing for you Jack. You cannot find anything that shows directly that some god son existed as YHWH in the OT and BECAME the Jesus born of Mary in the New. You find these little 'nuggets' of which you interpret to mean what YOU want, it is truly pathetic.
Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids is death-shade. 17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer is pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens is my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter is my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped:
Job 33:22 And draw near to the pit doth his soul, And his life to those causing death. 23 If there is by him a messenger, An interpreter — one of a thousand, To declare for man his uprightness: 24 Then He doth favour him and saith, `Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement.' 25 Fresher is his flesh than a child's, He returneth to the days of his youth.
Job was speaking of an angel, NOT the CHRIST. When will you get it through your head that Christ was and IS a human being, the man who became the firstborn of the dead?
The following is DIRECT proof that YHWH is the Father and could not possibly be Jesus,
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you–Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Jesus declares the FATHER as the ONLY God, and shows clearly that he is not YHWH but the prophet YHWH had promised Moses would come.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
Ac 7:37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.'
Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 And the Lord said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
Jesus speaks in the FATHER’S NAME, not his own name, but the FATHER’S!
Exodus 3:15 And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name — to the age, and this My memorial, to generation — generation.
Exodus 6:3 and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;
Lev 22:2 `Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and they are separated from the holy things of the sons of Israel, and they pollute not My holy name in what they are hallowing to Me; I am Jehovah.
Lu 11:2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
Re 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a* Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having+ His Father's name written on their foreheads.
YHWH is the name of the FATHER, it is not the name of a pre-existent Jesus.YHWH is the name of the FATHER, it is not the name of a pre-existent Jesus.
Jack try to show in the above how I am in error!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2009,06:33) Hi TT,
“I will send another advocate…”
The Spirit has always been of God
Nick,
Jesus said, “I will send another “comforter.” He did not say another “advocate.”thinker
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Truly this is getting embarrassing for you Jack. You cannot find anything that shows directly that some god son existed as YHWH in the OT and BECAME the Jesus born of Mary in the New. You find these little 'nuggets' of which you interpret to mean what YOU want, it is truly pathetic.
Jodi Lee,
So the Father's statement in Hebrews one which says that the Son created with His own hands is a “little nugget” to you? Hmmmm…. The Father's own words are just “little nuggets.”Jodi Lee:
Quote Job was speaking of an angel, NOT the CHRIST. When will you get it through your head that Christ was and IS a human being, the man who became the firstborn of the dead?
BOOM! So there is more than one advocate for you? You say that “one” God must mean one God but “one” advocate may mean more than one advocate. God speaks univocally Jodi. Job's advocate was NOT an angel. Job called his advocate a “messenger.” Christ was called a “messenger” throughout the old testament. The messenger said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). Job's advocate is identified in chapter one,6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”Who was pleading Job's case here Jodi? An angel? Nope! It as YHWH who was pleading Job's case. Note that YHWH does NOT say “Job fears Me.” He said, “he fears GOD” (third person). YHWH was pleading Job's case with God. Therefore, Job's Advocate was one who shared the name YHWH with God.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Jack try to show in the above how I am in error!
I just did and I am not done yet. Your inconsistencies have been exposed. “One” God must always mean one God but “one” King of kings don't mean one King of kings and “one” advocate don't mean “one” advocate.
You're always equivocating your words Jodi.You say that things are getting “embarassing” for me. This is a curious statement coming from one who claims that she set up her baby's room “through” her baby.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,09:43) Jodi Lee said: Quote Truly this is getting embarrassing for you Jack. You cannot find anything that shows directly that some god son existed as YHWH in the OT and BECAME the Jesus born of Mary in the New. You find these little 'nuggets' of which you interpret to mean what YOU want, it is truly pathetic.
Jodi Lee,
So the Father's statement in Hebrews one which says that the Son created with His own hands is a “little nugget” to you? Hmmmm…. The Father's own words are just “little nuggets.”Jodi Lee:
Quote Job was speaking of an angel, NOT the CHRIST. When will you get it through your head that Christ was and IS a human being, the man who became the firstborn of the dead?
BOOM! So there is more than one advocate for you? You say that “one” God must mean one God but “one” advocate may mean more than one advocate. God speaks univocally Jodi. Job's advocate was NOT an angel. Job called his advocate a “messenger.” Christ was called a “messenger” throughout the old testament. The messenger said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). Job's advocate is identified in chapter one,6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”Who was pleading Job's case here Jodi? An angel? Nope! It as YHWH who was pleading Job's case. Note that YHWH does NOT say “Job fears Me.” He said, “he fears GOD” (third person). YHWH was pleading Job's case with God. Therefore, Job's Advocate was one who shared the name YHWH with God.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Jack try to show in the above how I am in error!
I just did and I am not done yet. Your inconsistencies have been exposed. “One” God must always mean one God but “one” King of kings don't mean one King of kings and “one” advocate don't mean “one” advocate. You're always equivocating your words Jodi.You say that things are getting “embarassing” for me. This is a curious statement coming from one who claims that she set up her baby's room “through” her baby.
thinker
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars.”In the OT God's messengers roamed earth watching over the twelve tribes. These messengers reported back to YHWH and then the messengers rewarded and punished the people according to how YHWH saw fit.
Messengers who punished Israel were called by the people as adversaries, or SATAN!
Job 1:7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 2:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Job 16:16 My face is foul with weeping, And on mine eyelids is death-shade. 17 Not for violence in my hands, And my prayer is pure. 18 O earth, do not thou cover my blood! And let there not be a place for my cry. 19 Also, now, lo, in the heavens is my witness, And my testifier in the high places. 20 My interpreter is my friend, Unto God hath mine eye dropped:
Job 33:22 And draw near to the pit doth his soul, And his life to those causing death. 23 If there is by him a messenger, An interpreter — one of a thousand, To declare for man his uprightness: 24 Then He doth favour him and saith, `Ransom him from going down to the pit, I have found an atonement.' 25 Fresher is his flesh than a child's, He returneth to the days of his youth.
Job thought he was without sin, he wanted a messenger to testify to God that he was indeed NOT worthy of punishment.
The adversary in the book of Job, is a messenger who fully follows the WILL and direction of YHWH. YHWH did NOT ALLOW some rebellious demon to punish Job to prove a point to the rebellious demon how truly righteous Job was. The book of Job declares in fact that the adversary was RIGHT, which of course YHWH knew from the beginning. The whole book of Job is about Job LEARNING THROUGH SUFFERING.
The OT tells us that YHWH would send blessing or cursing dependent upon people keeping the law. God's messengers roamed to and fro watching people and those that did good received blessing and those who were in the need of punishment and instruction, cursing.
I am still waiting for you to prove to me how exactly YHWH is Jesus? You have not shown how through the scriptures I gave in my last post, that Jesus could still be YHWH.
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,09:43) Jodi Lee said: Quote Truly this is getting embarrassing for you Jack. You cannot find anything that shows directly that some god son existed as YHWH in the OT and BECAME the Jesus born of Mary in the New. You find these little 'nuggets' of which you interpret to mean what YOU want, it is truly pathetic.
Jodi Lee,
So the Father's statement in Hebrews one which says that the Son created with His own hands is a “little nugget” to you? Hmmmm…. The Father's own words are just “little nuggets.”Jodi Lee:
Quote Job was speaking of an angel, NOT the CHRIST. When will you get it through your head that Christ was and IS a human being, the man who became the firstborn of the dead?
BOOM! So there is more than one advocate for you? You say that “one” God must mean one God but “one” advocate may mean more than one advocate. God speaks univocally Jodi. Job's advocate was NOT an angel. Job called his advocate a “messenger.” Christ was called a “messenger” throughout the old testament. The messenger said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers” (Exodus 3). Job's advocate is identified in chapter one,6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”Who was pleading Job's case here Jodi? An angel? Nope! It as YHWH who was pleading Job's case. Note that YHWH does NOT say “Job fears Me.” He said, “he fears GOD” (third person). YHWH was pleading Job's case with God. Therefore, Job's Advocate was one who shared the name YHWH with God.
Jodi Lee:
Quote Jack try to show in the above how I am in error!
I just did and I am not done yet. Your inconsistencies have been exposed. “One” God must always mean one God but “one” King of kings don't mean one King of kings and “one” advocate don't mean “one” advocate. You're always equivocating your words Jodi.You say that things are getting “embarassing” for me. This is a curious statement coming from one who claims that she set up her baby's room “through” her baby.
thinker
Hi TT,
So which member of your multiplicity community god was this?Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 26 2009,09:43) Jodi Lee
You say that things are getting “embarassing” for me. This is a curious statement coming from one who claims that she set up her baby's room “through” her baby.thinker
DEFINITION of THROUGH,2 —used as a function word to indicate means, agency, or intermediacy: as a : by means of : by the agency of b : because of
USE your Thesaurus with the word THROUGH and you will find, 'because of'
Also as I showed earlier,
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
Dia2:65,149
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
dee-ah'
Preposition
Definition
1.through
a.of place
1.with
2.in
b.of time
1.throughout
2.during
c.of means
1.by
2.by the means of
2.through
a.the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1.by reason of
2.on account of
3.because of for this reason
4.therefore
5.on this account
King James Word Usage – Total: 646 by 241, through 88, with 16, for 58, for … sake 47, therefore + (5124)&version=kjv 44, for this cause + (5124) 14, because 52, miscellaneous 86Having this knowledge that you apparently LACKED Jack, there should be no longer a misunderstanding that if I say I created a nursery through Molly, you should be able to understand that it can mean the SAME thing as me saying I created a nursery FOR Molly, or BECAUSE OF Molly!
It was at the translators leisure to translate the word in the bible 'dia', however they saw fit. When they used the word 'through' they could have just as well used 'for', or 'because of' instead.
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
The heavenly MAN Jesus, our lord and Christ, is the future King of heaven and earth, not a god son. YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth and He did it for and because of the Son whom He'd know He'd make.
Jodi………..Amen, these deluded TRINITARIANS Just can't get it , they must be being prevent from understanding these things, at this time, it the only answer i can think of. Maybe GOD is teaching us something by all this.
peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………..gene
Jodi Lee said:
Quote In the OT God's messengers roamed earth watching over the twelve tribes. These messengers reported back to YHWH and then the messengers rewarded and punished the people according to how YHWH saw fit.
Exactly! This proves that YHWH in some instances cannot be a reference to the Father for the Father knows ALL THINGS. The Father does not need for angels to inform Him of anything.Jodi Lee:
Quote The adversary in the book of Job, is a messenger who fully follows the WILL and direction of YHWH. YHWH did NOT ALLOW some rebellious demon to punish Job to prove a point to the rebellious demon how truly righteous Job was.
You are getting off the subject. We are in agreement that there was no personal “satan” accusing Job before YHWH. Satan was bound in the garden when he was cursed and remained bound until Jesus appeared in the flesh. The Hebrew word is “sawtawn” and simply means “accuser.” It was a human accuser who came to YHWH accusing Job.Jodi Lee:
Quote I am still waiting for you to prove to me how exactly YHWH is Jesus? You have not shown how through the scriptures I gave in my last post, that Jesus could still be YHWH.
Of course you're still waiting for me to prove it. But I can't prove anything to one who thinks the Father's own words are just “little nuggets” and says that she prepared her baby's room THROUGH her baby.It was YHWH Himself who advocated for Job with God as I have shown. We don't see anyone advocating for Job throughout the whole book except YHWH! He referred to Himself in the first person and to God in the third person,
Job 40:8-9 (New International Version):
8 “Would you discredit MY justice?
Would you condemn ME to justify yourself?9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like HIS?What do you do with this? Only YHWH is pleading Job's case with God in the book. And He distinguishes Himself from God by the first and third persons. I have shown this before from Isaiah 48 in reference to the Creator.
Quote 12 “Listen to ME, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 MY own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and MY right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.14 “Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out HIS purpose against Babylon;
HIS arm will be against the Babylonians.15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and HE will succeed in HIS mission.16 “Come near ME and listen to this:
“From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there.”
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with HIS Spirit.Note that the Creator CLEARLY distinguishes Himself from YHWH in this passage. He said “I am the First and the Last” and that the earth and the heavens were created by “MY hands.” Then He calls Himself YHWH's “ally” and “HIS arm.”
The Creator clearly says that He is YHWH's ALLY AND HIS ARM in the destruction of Babylon. So there is no discrepancy between Psalm 102 which says that YHWH created with His own hands and Hebrews 1 where the Father said that creation took place by the Son's own hands. FOR THE SON IS GOD'S OWN HANDS! He is YHWH's ARM that would destroy Babylon.
The distinction between the Creator and YHWH is most clear when the Creator says, “I am sent by Adonai YHWH and HIS Spirit” (vs. 16).
We see in Job that YHWH Himself is Job's Advocate. There is no other throughout the entire story who pleads with God in Job's behalf. And we see that YHWH distinguishes Himself from God by the first and third persons in the same manner that the Creator distinguishes Himself from YHWH in Isaiah 48. Therefore, the name YHWH is intercahngeable and may sometimes refer to Jesus.
Jeremiah clearly said that the Messiah's name shall be called, “YHWH our righteousness.” YHWH's name is shared by the Messiah and the Gnostics and the Arains cannot take it away from Him! YHWH Jesus was Job's Advocate as He is ours today. For there is only ONE Advocate between God and all men.
thinker
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