Who is this Jesus?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:39)

Give me any single direct question, one at a time. Give me your BEST question and it will be clear as we go through YOUR questions one by one. WHAT was THE Son before he took flesh is the answer I want FROM you.

Okay. Here's my first question:

Mark 13
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter,

19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

Did Jesus just CLEARLY tell us that GOD created the world? YES or NO?

The answer to your one question is:

Long before the Son became flesh, he was the first spirit being God Almighty ever created. He was God's very first spirit son…….. and through that first Son, God proceeded to create all His other spirit sons.

[terraricca]

Daniel

Quote

I don't believe Jesus as the Son of man and the lamb of god created the heavens.

i agree with you ;

Quote

So with all the scriptures that reveal the messiah we need to realise that the Word was God

disagree ;”the Word was a God ” reason ;because the one that that is “is one “and the one that is with the one that is “is another one “

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a)God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD ;THIS IS TALKING THE BEGINNING OF CREATION ;NOW IT SAYS ; AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD ;;WE KNOW GOD DOES NOT HAVE A BEGINNING SO HE IS A SEPARATE PERSON FROM THE “WORD” ;;AND SINS THE “WORD” CANNOT BE GOD HIMSELF SO HE WAS “A” GOD ,
IN VERSE 2 THE SCRIPTURES REPEAT CLEARLY ;HE (THE WORD) WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING : TWO SEPARATED BEING ,ONE BEING “GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE OTHER BEING A GOD IN THE IMAGE OF HIS FATHER ,GOD ALMIGHTY ;
THIS WORKS PERFECTLY WITH WHAT PAUL SAYS IN COLOSSIANS 1;15-21

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:39)

Hi Mike, The Lamb and all your examples of YOUR questions are Jesus as the Son of Man. I agree Jesus didn't create the heavens as the Son of man or the lamb of God.

That's not a very good answer, Daniel.

If the being we know as “Jesus” created all things, then it doesn't matter if he comes in a lower form, or ends up as the Lamb of God…….. or even if he ended up as a turtle.

Because that same BEING would still be the BEING who created all things.  That BEING would never be identified as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things – no matter which form he was currently in.

According to that understanding, the disciples in Acts 4 were praying TO the Son who created all things, THROUGH that Son's “holy servant Jesus Christ”.

But Jesus Christ is NOT the “holy servant” of “the Son”.

It doesn't work, because Jesus is often clearly identified as someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things.  And just being flesh wouldn't make him someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things.

[terraricca]

Daniel

Quote

T and Mike, you need to understand I want nothing more than truth

each time you say this ;it really means; t and Mike you have to understand that what i say here is the truth and there is nothing more that i want is that you guys understand it and accepted as i present it ;

ONE WAY TRAFFIC

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2014,13:12)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:25) Hi Mike, I'm not twisting any scripture -you know this is the truth. I believe you are, Daniel.  You WANT so bad for Jesus to have been our Creator that you are reaching for things, understanding scriptural words in a way other than the most logical way they could be understood, and ignoring the scriptures I've listed for you that CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY identify Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our Creator. In my book, this is called “twisting the scriptures”. Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:25) You believe that it was the Father alone who spoke and created everything withOUT the Son, PLEASE explain HOW you can reconcile this with scriptures. Please don't let this be another “Michael the Archangel” thing.  Pierre and I both told you for MONTHS that we didn't think Jesus was Michael, and yet you still made that accusation against us with each post. Now, I told you in a recent post that I DON'T believe the Father created WITHOUT the Son.  So please don't EVER make that accusation against me again. I believe the scriptures – which say GOD is the one who created all things, and that GOD chose to do that THROUGH His holy servant Jesus Christ. That belief does NOT equate to:  “The Father created WITHOUT the Son”, Daniel.  So please don't ever again say that I think that, okay? Now, I think it's time we get down to those scriptures I listed.  Here they are again: 1.  The prayer in Acts 4, which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 2.  The teaching in Acts 17,which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator. 3.  The Isaiah 42 passage, in which Jehovah identifies Himself as the Creator, and then proceeds to speak to His servant Jesus Christ. 4.  Genesis 1, which shows us that GOD created by His LITERAL spoken word. 5.  Malachi 2:10, which makes it clear that THE FATHER is the GOD who created all of us. 6.  1 Corinthians 8:6, which makes it clear that all things came FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ. 7.  2 Corinthians 4:6, which teaches us that God LITERALLY spoke words from His mouth, causing light to shine out of the darkness.  This verse also clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who spoke light out of darkness. 8.  Revelation 4:9-5:7, which identifies “the one who sits on the throne” as the one who created all things………. and identifies Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “the one who sits on the throne”. Here goes #9, Daniel: Mark 13 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. That was Jesus talking, Daniel.  And Jesus said GOD created the world. When will you address one of these scriptures?  They're piling up on you.   In the opening post of this thread, you said, “I want this debate to be about comparing the evidence.” I'm showing you CLEAR and UNDENIABLE scriptural evidence here, Daniel.  Why are you ignoring it?

Hi Mike,

You have heard the saying you cant have your cake and eat it too 🙂

You say

That belief does NOT equate to: “The Father created WITHOUT the Son”, Daniel. So please don't ever again say that I think that, okay?

So you say that the Father is ALONE the creator and then you say he didn't create WITHOUT the Son.

You can't say that the Father created by a literal word ALONE because this excludes the Son, do you understand this???

Jesus is the one and only Son, adam isn't a Son FROM the Father substance. Adam is a Pinocchio type Son, this is the key difference to ALL the other Sons.

See its undeniable that John is quoting Genesis by saying in the beginning, that Jesus is the Word [logos] that was created all things.

Even the hebrew word for God is plural.

Now Adam and eve are created in the image of God [pural]. Because the Fathers nature (God) is expressive, he truly has a Son FROM his substance. Do you agree that it is the Father and the Son in the OUR image???

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Jesus is NOT like Gabriel or Michael or lucifier before the fall.
Michael did NOT create anything, he is the warrior angel.
Gabriel is the messenger angel, the angel of the Lord, he reveals all the important messangers.

The Son is truly the Son he is NOT ***A** created creature Son, *true* sons are NOT created from parents they are multiplied by the interaction between the substance of Love between man and women. The process cant be stopped, if a fertile man and women make love they have NO choice but to have a Son, its the expression of substance and love.

God is Love.

The Father didn't create his own substance to express as his radiance.

The Father is eternally Father and expresses this begotten Glory he didn't make his begotten Glory, the Logos, he didn't make his own Fatherhood, HE is truly Father!!!
Not a *made* father.

Also remember, I'm saying Jesus as a *MAN* didn't create the universe, I do believe that it was the same Jesus that created the heavens by the works of his hands BUT not in the form as a man [e.g not as the lamb of God].

The Word **was** God [the Son alone] now he is BOTH God the Son AND the Son of man.

He is one with the Father because he i
s FROM and OF the one Father's substance. remember my example of the mountain with the unbegotten snow expressing the river of life, which is the BEGOTTEN water FROM the snow.

Now begotten glory [the Son] is the well of Life and the access to partake of the living water, the nature FROM which it came. Have to go so cant answer all your questions.

Really interested in you explaining how the Father created everything with his literal Word, and then created it BY/Through the Son.

Also I gave you a clear example that showed it was **BY** the Logos that was the creator/maker. Ofcourse the scripture that says it was BY Gods Word that the heavens are made, indicate it was by the Son. Lets focus on this truth.

So please explain YOUR belieft how the Father creates by his literal Word… interested to see how you could reconcile this with scripture especially since Jesus is refered to the Logogs and it is interchange with the word rhema as I have already proved WITH scripture.

PLEASE put your trust in Jesus the one and only true Son. He will not destroy you for admitting that he is OF and FROM the fathers substance, what is the Father substance, true God!!! not a false God like satan and anything else that is called god

Life in the one and only Son.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,

I believe you use reason and common sense but been brought up in an environment that has only allowed one view to be expressed. I hope and i also have faith that you will accept the Son as the only true begotten God, the “one and only” true Son.

When I asked you what Jesus was before he took flesh why didn't you admit that he was God?

This is the key difference between men and angels being created Sons and the “one and only” true Son.

The Word was God.e

Now PLEASE let me know if I have missed any of your questions.

As I have said, I don't believe that Jesus in the form as man, a created man, made the heavens and the earth. I believe it was Jesus as the one and only true Son of God, the Logos FROM the Fathers substance, the true Son.

Now you quoted Isaiah 42 as Jesus being the holy servant, you must be aware that this is a direct revelation to the created man Jesus and not to his nature as God, the Logos was God. PLEASE Mike, take a honest read of this.

Isaiah 42
3A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”

The Word *was* God and became part of creation, a crated being to destroy death hades and the grave.

Isaiah 42 continues
5This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

And yes Jehovah spreads out the earth BY himself.

Isaiah 44:24
“This is what the LORD says– your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

We have to be honest and admit to the truth that Jehovah spread out the earth by HIMSELF

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

indeed there is NO OTHER so the Father declares the truth. I will trust in the true Father, not a *made* father

Isaiah 48:13
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

He it is, this is the beaty of the scriptures and the power of their truth.

My dare friend, Jehovah, the Almighty says this..

Isaiah 43
8Bring out the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!

Let us see with our eyes

10“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one [God] after me.
11I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”

Get this Jehovah give the above scriptures for those who have eyes but are blind. THEN Jesus quotes this very scripture to prove he is NOT some foreign God. You are my witnesses,declares the Lord, “that I am God.

Isaiah 43:13
Yes, and from ancient days
I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.

John 10:28
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

Jesus quoted the scripture that started that there was NO God FORMED before or AFTER him, and then said that he and the Father are one. Of course they wanted to STONE him.

The Logos is NOT some foreign god. He is the only true begotten God, who appeared in the old testament and Jesus revaled THIS fact and truth for the sake of our salvation our souls. Lets led our loved ones to safety.

What very clever is Jesus actually revealed the pharisees as FALSE gods that will perish.

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—

He did this by calling them all sons of the most High. Indeed they are false gods who understand nothing and walk blind in darkness. If only they would open their eyes.

Psalm 82:5-7
5“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6″I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. '7″Nevertheless you will die like men And fall like any one of the princes.”

Jeremiah 10:11-12
“Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

The true unbegotten God and his begotten Son will NEVER perish.

Life in the Son and in his name.
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 06 2014,00:13)

So you say that the Father is ALONE the creator and then you say he didn't create WITHOUT the Son. You can't say that the Father created by a literal word ALONE because this excludes the Son, do you understand this?

Daniel,

Please just listen for 10 SECONDS………..

Jehovah the Father created you ALONE.  He is the ONLY ONE who created you.  He ALONE is the ONLY reason you are living today.

But He didn't create you WITHOUT your parents, did He?

He ALONE created you THROUGH your parents – which is NOT to say, “WITHOUT your parents”.

Do you understand now?  

[mikeboll64]

Daniel,

I didn't bother to read the rest of that first post, or any of the second one.

You have challenged me to a “question for question” debate. I have directly answered YOUR one question, and remain waiting for the DIRECT answer to my first question.

If the answer is in the middle of a mile long sermon, I will not find it. You need to make a post that has ONLY your DIRECT answer to my question in it…….. and NOTHING ELSE.

I will repost the question for you……………

[mikeboll64]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2014,20:17)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 04 2014,19:39) Give me any single direct question, one at a time. Give me your BEST question and it will be clear as we go through YOUR questions one by one. WHAT was THE Son before he took flesh is the answer I want FROM you. Okay.  Here's my first question: Mark 13 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. Did Jesus just CLEARLY tell us that GOD created the world?  YES or NO? The answer to your one question is: Long before the Son became flesh, he was the first spirit being God Almighty ever created.  He was God's very first spirit son…….. and through that first Son, God proceeded to create all His other spirit sons.

As you can see, I clearly and directly answered YOUR one question. I didn't hide my answer amidst a long sermon, but put it short and sweet in one little paragraph.

I expect the same thing from you when you answer MY one question, which is also in the quote box above.

Thanks in advance……..

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2014,13:28)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 06 2014,00:13) So you say that the Father is ALONE the creator and then you say he didn't create WITHOUT the Son. You can't say that the Father created by a literal word ALONE because this excludes the Son, do you understand this? Daniel, Please just listen for 10 SECONDS……….. Jehovah the Father created you ALONE.  He is the ONLY ONE who created you.  He ALONE is the ONLY reason you are living today. But He didn't create you WITHOUT your parents, did He? He ALONE created you THROUGH your parents – which is NOT to say, “WITHOUT your parents”. Do you understand now?

Hi Mike,
We are talking about God creating the heavens and the earth.

The Father didn't create you through his literal Word alone, scripture doesn't say that children are made my God alone. Scripture says that parents are to be fruitful and multiple, like seeds following of a tree and growing.
Cats and dogs can multiple so can trees, everything acordingly to its own.

NOW you say God the Father created the heavens and earth through his literal Word.

NO he created through his true SON, the Logos, the Word.

You need to explain WHAT you mean and understand about the Father being creating the heavens.

Again I have used EXPLICIT scripture that says it was created BY the Logos, 2 Peter.

Or are you going to forgot, about this fact EXACTLY as Peter stated when writing this truth.

The word for BY and Through have the same meaning

Life in the Son, please read past posts thoroughly and you will see

I will be away so will reply and make it explicitly clear one by one – Take care
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02)

NOW you say God the Father created the heavens and earth through his literal Word. NO he created through his true SON, the Logos, the Word.

Both are equally accurate, Daniel.

God literally SPOKE things into existence, and therefore created by His literal spoken words.  (Genesis 1, among many others.)

But God created all things through His holy servant Jesus Christ, who is also metaphorically known as “The Word of God”.  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, John 1:3)

So both claims are scripturally true.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02)

You need to explain WHAT you mean and understand about the Father being creating the heavens.

What?  I mean just what it says, Daniel.  God the Father created ALL THINGS, including the heavens, the earth, and everything in them.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02)

Again I have used EXPLICIT scripture that says it was created BY the Logos, 2 Peter.

Unless the “W” in “word” is capped, I won't accept the scripture as a valid addition to this discussion.

Daniel, we KNOW that God LITERALLY spoke words to create things.  Genesis 1 CLEARLY tells us as much, right?  So any of those scriptures that say “God created by His word” are MUCH more likely to be talking about God creating by His LITERAL word than they are to be talking about God creating through Jesus.

And even if some of them ARE talking about God creating through Jesus, just remember words of your forefather, Tertullian:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

Do you understand that having something created THROUGH you doesn't mean you were the creator of that thing?  

But, for each scripture where you say “word of God” refers to Jesus, I could just say that “word of God” refers to God's literal spoken words in that verse.

So save yourself the time and effort, and only use the scriptures where the “W” is capped in “Word”, okay?  If it is not capped, it is because your fellow Trinitarians, who made those translations, believe the verse is about God's spoken word, and not about Jesus.  

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02)

The word for BY and Through have the same meaning

That is correct……. many times, they have the same exact meaning.

I await your “explicitly clear one by one” answer to my first question about Mark 13:18-19.

Peace and love to you and yours.  

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2014,13:52)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) NOW you say God the Father created the heavens and earth through his literal Word. NO he created through his true SON, the Logos, the Word. Both are equally accurate, Daniel. God literally SPOKE things into existence, and therefore created by His literal spoken words.  (Genesis 1, among many others.) But God created all things through His holy servant Jesus Christ, who is also metaphorically known as “The Word of God”.  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, John 1:3) So both claims are scripturally true. Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) You need to explain WHAT you mean and understand about the Father being creating the heavens. What?  I mean just what it says, Daniel.  God the Father created ALL THINGS, including the heavens, the earth, and everything in them. Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) Again I have used EXPLICIT scripture that says it was created BY the Logos, 2 Peter. Unless the “W” in “word” is capped, I won't accept the scripture as a valid addition to this discussion. Daniel, we KNOW that God LITERALLY spoke words to create things.  Genesis 1 CLEARLY tells us as much, right?  So any of those scriptures that say “God created by His word” are MUCH more likely to be talking about God creating by His LITERAL word than they are to be talking about God creating through Jesus. And even if some of them ARE talking about God creating through Jesus, just remember words of your forefather, Tertullian:  He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. Do you understand that having something created THROUGH you doesn't mean you were the creator of that thing?   But, for each scripture where you say “word of God” refers to Jesus, I could just say that “word of God” refers to God's literal spoken words in that verse. So save yourself the time and effort, and only use the scriptures where the “W” is capped in “Word”, okay?  If it is not capped, it is because your fellow Trinitarians, who made those translations, believe the verse is about God's spoken word, and not about Jesus.   Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,00:02) The word for BY and Through have the same meaning That is correct……. many times, they have the same exact meaning. I await your “explicitly clear one by one” answer to my first question about Mark 13:18-19. Peace and love to you and yours.

Thanks Mike,
I have just a few minutes. I'm meant to be on holiday 🙂

It great that you admit that the words through and by have the same meaning. Because indded they do.

2 Peter uses the word Logos so is valid.

What I was after was an explaination how creation took place if the Father created the heavens through his literal word, and then through his Son (the Logos) the Word.
Surely its clear and unmistakable that The Son is the Word by/through all things are created.
So all things are sustained by Jesus literal Word this is what hebrews says. That means all the gravity fields for all the massive galaxies and suns etc etc and the moons that control the seas tides. We are not talking about a angel here, he is THE Son of God, God by nature.

I should have some time in 3 days, I will answer your questions.

Mike if you admit that the Son is from the Fathers substance and FROM and OF his true nature, then it makes everything simple. Jesus is THE Son of God, the Word was God all the scriptures that describe the Son nature/substance before he took flesh prove Jesus is God (The one and only begotten God)

Take care, I will answer a couple of your questions and then get you to answer mine. Please remember that if its a revealtion to Jesus as the messiah (the Son of man or suffering servant) then you know that because the Son of God become the Son of man, to be a priest and the offering also…

Although Jesus is also a man it doesn't take away from the solid foundation that he is the only true Son of God.

Take care and hope you have a good weekend.

Life in the one and only Son, the true Logos.
Daniel

[terraricca]

Daniel

why does it take so long to answer Mike questions you could have saved you one hour in written words ,if you would take one minute to answer his questions ,now you postpone the answer again ,and prepare a counter attack so to speak

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33)

2 Peter uses the word Logos so is valid.

So does this scripture:

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

Does the fact that the Greek word is “logos” in the above scripture mean the “word” mentioned is Jesus Christ?  Of course not.

On the other hand:

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

The Greek word is “rhema” in the above verse.  But does that mean the “word” is NOT Jesus Christ?

Not necessarily, because both “logos” and “rhema” are simply Greek words for “word”.

But I could surely use the fact that Hebrews 11:3 has “rhema” as SUPPORT to my argument that God created by His LITERAL spoken words, right?

At any rate, the fact that scripture #1 has “logos” doesn't mean it IS about Jesus, and the fact that scripture #2 has “rhema” doesn't necessarily mean it IS NOT about Jesus.

In English, we can say either “word” or “utterance” (among others) to convey the same exact meaning.  In the Greek language, “logos” and “rhema” work the same way.

So the fact that 2 Peter uses “logos” does NOT make it automatically refer to Jesus Christ.  Do you understand these things I've showed you?  If so, then this discussion is a good thing, because we are learning.

But that brings us right back to the part where I tell you that I won't entertain any “word” scriptures where the “W” is not capped by your Trinitarian translators.  If the “W” is not capped, then don't bring the scripture up in this discussion……… because I could just as easily say it refers to the LITERAL spoken words of God.  (And if you think about it, that is obviously how the Trinitarian translators understood those verses – or else they WOULD HAVE capped the “W”, right?)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33)

I will answer a couple of your questions and then get you to answer mine.

Not a “couple”, Daniel.  Just ONE at a time, please.  I have answered your first one, and await your answer to my first one.

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2014,00:17)

Daniel why does it take so long to answer Mike questions you could have saved you one hour in written words ,if you would take one minute to answer his questions ,now you postpone the answer again ,and prepare a counter attack so to speak

Hi t
I'm auckland at the moment for work and I was truly on holiday when I did my last post.

I don't need to spend time to couter post, have you NOT read my posts, the spelling and grammer proves that they are done on the fly. Its very easy to prove that a angel jesus doesn't exist and that Jesus is God [the Son]. the Word was God remember.

You dont trust me so you will never believe my intentions are good so I'm not the person to reach you. this is my last post to you, I only wish you Love Jesus with all your heart and soul and mind and not spend all your time trying to prove he is Something YOU dont even understand. You say he is a NOT a angel but he is a angel. He is FROm the Father substance but he is NOT the true God [nature of his Father]

You can't have an Almighty God of Nothing and a eternal Father of nothing.

The Son is the radiance of the Father glory, the one and only begotten God, FROM the Father ***VERY*** subtsance THE ONLY true Son of God, light FROM light true God FROM true God.

Life in the ONLY true Son of God, Jesus who became THE Son of man to give you a chance to have his Father as your Father.

Daniel
Again i'm sorry I wont be replying to your message this was only meant to be between Mike and I, I have *very* little time and need to finish this debate with mike as The son of God is calling me for his work in other areas that have more fruit. I know i'm in him and he hears me and my prayers are answered and I experience his blessings in my Life.
Live in Love and in truth.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 11 2014,05:18)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33) 2 Peter uses the word Logos so is valid. So does this scripture: Matthew 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. Does the fact that the Greek word is “logos” in the above scripture mean the “word” mentioned is Jesus Christ?  Of course not. On the other hand: Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The Greek word is “rhema” in the above verse.  But does that mean the “word” is NOT Jesus Christ? Not necessarily, because both “logos” and “rhema” are simply Greek words for “word”. But I could surely use the fact that Hebrews 11:3 has “rhema” as SUPPORT to my argument that God created by His LITERAL spoken words, right? At any rate, the fact that scripture #1 has “logos” doesn't mean it IS about Jesus, and the fact that scripture #2 has “rhema” doesn't necessarily mean it IS NOT about Jesus. In English, we can say either “word” or “utterance” (among others) to convey the same exact meaning.  In the Greek language, “logos” and “rhema” work the same way. So the fact that 2 Peter uses “logos” does NOT make it automatically refer to Jesus Christ.  Do you understand these things I've showed you?  If so, then this discussion is a good thing, because we are learning. But that brings us right back to the part where I tell you that I won't entertain any “word” scriptures where the “W” is not capped by your Trinitarian translators.  If the “W” is not capped, then don't bring the scripture up in this discussion……… because I could just as easily say it refers to the LITERAL spoken words of God.  (And if you think about it, that is obviously how the Trinitarian translators understood those verses – or else they WOULD HAVE capped the “W”, right?) Quote (4Thomas @ May 08 2014,21:33) I will answer a couple of your questions and then get you to answer mine. Not a “couple”, Daniel.  Just ONE at a time, please.  I have answered your first one, and await your answer to my first one.

Hi Mike,

The fact is you cant use scripture like By YOUR words you will be justified, when its not even in reference to creation or the Father or the Son.

You need to let scripture interupt scripture.
e.g words by men should even be needed just lots of parallel scriptures.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's Word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Psalm 33:6
New International Version
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

God never said he would make men and womens offspring Children alone, he said he alone made the heavens withOUT anyone beside him etc. he alone is the first and the last.

point and fact, Jehovah doesn't say he created you alone, he instead says he formed you, he did this by using the substance FROM the mother and fathers very own nature [human] Notice though in the same context he says he speads out the earth by himself

24“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
25who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isaiah 48:12-13
12″Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

Who is the first and the last? Whose hand created the heavens?

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Mike, this debate is on, “is Jesus” a angel or God [the Son] which is the same nature as his only true Father.

I cant keep on going backwards and forwards like this all we need to know is WHAT is the foundation. You think i'm preaching, i'm only using common sense and it its wasn't you would tear me to pieces because you have a very scarp mind but you have you trust in the wrong leaders from your youth [well that what it aooears to me] I honestly think you know the truth but you dont even allow yourself to fully considered that Jesus is true God by nature FROM his Father. All you
need to truly believe is that Jesus is THE one and only true Son of God and that the Father isn't a made father he is truly THE eternal almighty Father of his begotten radiance the Lord of Glory his one and only Son who came to earth and was seen and appeared to multiple times as Jehovah the Almighty.

I started this debate with you because you said Jesus is a angel. My very first post on this subject refuted this claim so if you still believe Jesus is a angel lets compare the evidence to Jesus being a angel before he took flesh WHEN compared to Jesus being God before he took flesh.

I really want to end this debate as I need to focus on my children, Wife and Jesus is calling me to other things. I do find it hard to leave talking with you but you dont even read my posts as you believe i'm preaching. Well its truly from my heart and I only write these things because i want you to belong to Jesus, and love him with all your heart soul and mind. Why spend all your time trying to teach he is not God when even the jw John 1:18 calls him **THE** ONLY begotten God. You have a good mind and could spend it on much better things that trying to convince me that the true Son is the same nature as his true Father.

Take care my friend, I will be praying for you in Love and truth
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 14 2014,05:04)

I started this debate with you because you said Jesus is a angel.

Yes, Jesus is an angel of God.

The Greek word “aggelos” just means “messenger”.

IS Jesus a messenger of God?  Of course he is.  He himself said he came to do God's will, and speak only what the Father told him to speak.

In English translations, we use the word “angel” when the messenger in question is a spirit being.

Is Jesus a spirit being?  Of course he is.

So no number of misunderstood scriptures will ever change those two things, Daniel.

1.  “Aggelos” means “messenger” – which Jesus is.

2.  “Angel” refers to “SPIRIT messengers” – which Jesus is.

There is no more that needs to be said on that subject.  So if you want to leave this debate because of more pressing matters, go with grace my friend – and may God bless you.  

BUT…….. leave knowing that it will always be in the back of my mind how I listed NINE different scriptures that clearly identify Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things – and you couldn't even address ONE of them.

There is a very good reason you can't (or won't) address them, Daniel.  And “available time” has nothing to do with that reason.

I will always consider you a “good dude” who means well.  I pray that you find truth, happiness, and God's grace on your journey.  

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
So where is Jesus called a messenger?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB
Heb 1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Could we substitute messenger here and still not see a distinction?

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
More distinctions drawn by scripture
heb 2
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[Author]

Posts