Who is this Jesus?

Participant

daniel

Quote

You can't have an almighty God of Nothing especially an eternal Almighty *unchanging* Father.

under what authority do you judge your God and my God

you try to bring down God almighty to your level as a man have you become insane

who can judge what are the needs of God almighty ,who can judge God's requirements before he created all things through his son

OR DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT TRUE LOVE LIVES WITH CONTENT ; THIS IS THE NEW LAW THAT JESUS TEACH ALL THOSE THAT WILL BE SAVED

April 30, 2014 at 1:19 am#380106

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ April 29 2014,00:29)

Hi t,

You can't have an almighty God of Nothing especially an eternal Almighty *unchanging* Father.

You can't have a God of nothing? So who was your triune God the God OF before anything was created?

Daniel, I told you these things before, but here they are again:

Although the BEING we know as “God” doesn't change, circumstances concerning Him DO CHANGE.

For example, “God” wasn't a ruler until He had someone to rule over.

And God wasn't a “Father” until he begat a child.

And God wasn't a “Savior” until He had someone to save.

Consider this bizarre statement………….

God is the one who led Israel to the promised land. And since God never changes, He must have been, from eternity, leading Israel into the promised land.

See how lame that is? So don't confuse the un-changeability of the BEING with the fact that circumstances surrounding that being have indeed changed over time – and continue to do so to this day.

April 30, 2014 at 1:35 am#380109

Participant

Quote (t8 @ April 29 2014,23:01)

Daniel. Jesus own words testify of the truth as to who the true God is and it is not Jesus. He states it clearly and he says that these words are eternal life. So you better listen up.

John 17:3
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

Jesus was either wrong or right when he spoke these words. And if you read the rest of scripture without Trinity lenses on, you will also see that the rest of scripture agrees with Jesus words of eternal life.

e.g., our brother Paul states in 1 Corinthians 8:6
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live., just as there”.

Daniel, rather than trying to convince men that Jesus is God, why not convince men that Jesus Christ is Lord. After all, all will confess this eventually. Further, Jesus is our brother and God calls us children. Know the difference because eternal life was to know God and Jesus.

Finally, the Trinity states that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God right. That is, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. But have you heard the words, “the Son of God” or “the Spirit of God”? Sure you have, but now ask yourself, have you heard the term “The Father of God”? No you have not. Yet that is what you are teach when you teach the Trinity. This doctrine has made people from all nations drunk. The Father is not the Father of God, no he is God. Jesus the son and the Spirit are OF God. Simple stuff. Not complicated. Simplicity in Christ.

Hi T8,

I like your reply its a very fair question, thanks.

Yes there is one Lord, yet would you exclude the Father from being called Lord? YES/NO

If the answer is NO then you cant use this agreement to exclude the Son from being called God.

The Father is the source of the entire divinity. I agree the Son is OF the Father's substance [the nature of true Lord and true God] Same nature and substance

See the only true God is the one God, see as you know I believe common sense doesn't allow for an eternal almighty Father (God) of nothing. The Son who is OF the one God [The Father, is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance) if you where my Son and from my substance alone, we would be one in our nature and have the same substance even though we are different people (persons)

See you rightfully dont believe that Jesus is just a MAN.

Below states that the mediator is the MAN Jesus.

Do we ALSO need a mediator to be saved? Yes we do, who is this mediator it is the Son of MAN, the man Jesus, the Word made flesh.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the MAN Christ Jesus,

The MAN [Messiah] Jesus,

Just ask yourself are you happy believing Jesus was a just a MAN alone?

John 17:3-5
3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Again here Jesus is talking about his human nature as the Christ [Messiah], he says I have brought you glory on earth and then he begins to talk about his nature before the World began. Jesus is one with the Father in his eternal substance from and of the Father and he is also a man. Eternal life is knowing the one true God, (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and also understanding that the only begotten God took flesh and became man.

So eternal life doesn’t just mean understanding the one God you also need the Mediator the MAN Christ to have access to God, this is why Jesus came *from* and *of* his Father AND took FLESH, the *Word* became Flesh.

Every scripture that teaches WHAT jesus was before he TOOK flesh in his nature as the only true Son teaches that the Word was God. He is God because he is OF the one Gods substance his true Fathers substance.

If you truly believe that Jesus is true Lord that being Jehovah please help me to reach others so they will also believe that Jesus is the one Lord who is Jehovah seen the old testament.

Love in Jesus, the Son whom all things are made for
Daniel

April 30, 2014 at 6:11 am#380126

Participant

Hi T8,

correction to my post, instead of editing I will note what I entered incorrectly below

The Son who is OF the one God [~~the Father~~, is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance)

the statement should have said

The Son who is OF the one God, [The Son is FROM the one God's (The Fathers substance, this is how they are one)

Satan is not FROM the Fathers substance and other arch angels like Gabriel and Michael are NOT from the Fathers substance. Jesus *alone* is the one and only true Son by substance. This is why Jesus can say to us all, ” 4Thomas how long have I been with you and you say show us the Father ”

I agree with you that the Father is FROM **NO-ONE** -the Father is OF noone. He is the source of the entire divinity, he is the source of the Son.
So amen- and amen the Father is FROM no-one because he is the only unbegotten God, the only source and the source of all, but he is not static but expresses his glory for eternity. The Son is and always will be the greatest testimony of the Fathers expressed Glory and love and mercy.

An example of something in the universe that is static is a rock (moon) that doesn't express itself, when there is no light it is in darkness. it is only by the begotten rays that it can be made visable. See i don't think the Father is was eternally static like a moon but instead I think of him as the Sun and all of the suns expressed begotten glory can be found in the Son.

A lot of what you say T8 make sense. I note you say that Jesus sits with the Father and we sit with Christ. See how you use the name Christ and Jesus.

from View Points » Where is God exactly

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 19 2013,20:42)

Mike, I believe that there is a disinction with God and his Spirit.
By his Spirit he can dwell in all and that is the plan, (but currently does not), and as the Father, I personally do not believe that he is contained inside his own creation.

The closest we get to see him is when we see Christ seated on his throne. Around that throne and through the face of Christ is glory and light perhaps even unapproachable light.

And where is that light coming from? God. From the highest throne and beyond is the Father. Only Jesus is able to sit with him on that throne. While we can if we are worthy be seated with Christ on his throne.

I can sort of imagine looking into the face of Christ and knowing that beyond him was the light of God shining from eternity and through the son. If I was able to look, maybe I would have to look away after a while because that light is from eternity and is the source of all.

April 30, 2014 at 2:27 pm#380135

Participant

Hi Mike,

Sorry about the delay.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Please read the commentaries that have actually even revealed more explicit examples of the Expressed Word (The Son) and the Breath of God (The Holy Spirit)

If you are interested here are some commentaries.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/33-6.htm

First, the Septuagint

Ecclesiasticus (Sira) 43:26

By him the end of them hath prosperous success, and by his word all things consist.

The word by which all things consist is the Son.

Colossians 1:17
King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ecclesiasticus is in the Septuagint, this is the book the disciples including the great Paul would read and quoted from.

Isaiah 55:11
New International Version
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

The Word is The Son who does all his true Father wants.

Isaiah 11:4
New International Version
but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

A direct and explicit revelation, the rod of his mouth is the sword of his mouth

Revelation 19:15
Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Isaiah 11:4
English Standard Version
but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.

with the breath of his lips….. The Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

double-edged sword is The word of God, that separates soul, spirit and body [ that being joints and marrow]

Revelation 1:16
New International Version
In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Job 33:4
New International Version
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Let us all tremble at the Word of the Father

Isaiah 66:2
Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the LORD. “These are the ones I look on with favor: those who are humble and contrite in spirit, and who tremble at my word.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

See the Father created all things by/through his Son/his begotten Word

John 1:10
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

If its *through* you that something is completed it is **by** you that its completed.

example is its *by* or through Jesus blood

Ephesians 1:7
New International Version
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

We can say it’s through Jesus blood or it by Jesus blood because we are actually saved by his blood and we don’t actually travel through his blood.

Over 90 percent of all translations explicitly declare it is BY the Son all things were created.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created…

BY him, nearly 20 examples that it was BY the Son who all things were *created* http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

The Son is the Word, by which the heavens were made. You can get to work through your car, because its by the car you can drive to work. Its through the Son because its by the Son (the Word) all things are created.

Sorry I don’t have much more time to spend and there is a lot more I could say regarding the Holy Spirit but considering the word spirit and breath are one and the same word, it’s clear the breath is the Holy Spirit. The Son also has the Holy Spirit with the breath of his mouth.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

John 20:22-23
New International Version
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

The New testament has revealed that THE Word by which the heavens are created is truly THE one and only Son of God. True Lord and true God FROM and OF his Fathers substance. The Father is FROM and OF no one his is eternally the unchanging Father. FROM the Fathers begotten and expressed glory [*the* Son the Lord of Glory creates all things. Ofcourse the Son is the maker the creator as all things are created BY the Son.

Here is a link to twenty different translation that explicitly state *BY* him all things were created. http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

If it *BY* you that a car is created, then you are the one that created it?
So by if all things are created *by* the Son and then scripture says that the universe was created by the word(rhema) of God then in this cause the rhema is the logos, who is the Son which has the same nature as his Father.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Another example that it was ***BY*** the word of God the heavens were made/created

2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Love and life in the one and only true Son
Daniel

May 1, 2014 at 12:23 am#380167

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ April 30 2014,08:27)

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Hi Daniel,

Did you know the word translated as “breath” is the Hebrew word “ruwach”? Did you know that “ruwach” is also the word for “spirit” and “wind” – as well as “breath”?

So, if I was trying to FORCE the scriptures to teach what I wanted them to, I could say that the “word” is Jesus, and the “ruwach” is the “Holy Spirit person of the Godhead”.

Then I could claim that the “Son person of the Godhead” made the heavens, and the “Holy Spirit person of the Godhead” made the starry hosts.

See how I could already have my mind made up about what I WANT the scriptures to teach – and then go back through those scriptures, word by word, diligently searching out Hebrew words that I could twist into saying what I WANT them to say?

This is what you are doing. This is what all Trinitarians do. In fact, they HAVE TO practice this technique in order to bolster their “Jesus is God Proof Texts”.

I mean, look at the words of those Trinitarian commentators you linked me to. These guys ALREADY have it in their minds that Jesus is God Almighty, which is the ONLY reason any one of them would think the word “word” in Psalm 33:6 refers to Jesus.

I once practiced the same technique, to show Lightenup how she was doing the same thing you are doing. I showed her from the Hebrew scriptures that there were more verses I could twist into saying Moses was God than there were scriptures she could twist into saying Jesus was God.

I can't recall the thread where I posted those “Moses is God” scriptures, but another of our members did the same thing with King David. You can read his “proof” that David is both Jesus Christ and Jehovah here.

But concerning Psalm 33:6, the fact that the “breath of Jehovah's mouth” is mentioned along with His “word” tells us that this psalm is saying Jehovah Himself SPOKE the heavens and starry hosts into creation.

For support, we have:

Genesis 1
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.

17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,

18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.

Daniel, the “Word OF God” is nowhere to be seen in that story of creation. Look at all the times it is written that “God” said this, or “He” did that. THAT is the one who created these things.

But especially notice the first words of the passage: “And God SAID………”.

If God SAID, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky, and let there be stars……”, don't you think we could later say that these things were created “by the word of God”?

After all, wasn't it God's LITERAL spoken words that brought about the creation of these things? Of course it was……. just like the Genesis teaching clearly tells us.

So the fact that your commentators would “overlook” the most LOGICAL and SCRIPTURAL meaning of, “By the word of Jehovah the heavens were made, their starry hosts by the breath of His mouth“ only goes to show what I was saying earlier, which is: These TRINITARIAN commentators came to that verse already KNOWING in their minds what they WANTED that scripture to teach. They didn't even give a second thought to the MOST LOGICAL meaning of those words. They were only interested in FORCING this psalm to be a “Jesus is God/Creator proof text”.

Now, as the final word on this subject, I have already listed the prayer in Acts 4, and a teaching in Acts 17, where actual apostles of Jesus Christ himself CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY listed Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.

I will give you one more:

Isaiah 42
5 This is what Jehovah God says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:

6 “I, Jehovah, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.”

This passage is CLEARLY showing us things that our God, Jehovah, is saying to one of His anointed servants. And we know from NT scriptures that Jesus is that anointed servant.

But once again, notice how the one doing the talking is the one who created the heavens, the earth, and the things in them. It is not the one BEING SPOKEN TO who did those things….. but the one DOING the speaking.

So now I've showed you THREE different scriptures that CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY list Jesus Christ as someone OTHER THAN the Creator.

Were you ever going to address even ONE of these scriptures, Daniel? Or were you planning to just keep on posting scriptures that have the phrase “word of God” in them, along with your biased OPINION that the “word of God” in each verse is Jesus Christ?

I also want a clear and definitive ANSWER from you about my points concerning Psalm 33:6. I want you to tell me whether or not it's possible that “the word of God” and “the breath of His mouth” refer to God SPEAKING things into creation.

Then, I want you to tell me if that is the most logical meaning of those words.

May 1, 2014 at 12:33 am#380168

Blocked

Actually Daniel,

Let me make this real easy for the both of us:

Is it clear from Genesis 1 that Jehovah God spoke literal words which caused the heavens, the stars, the earth, and the creatures on it to come into existence?

The only honest answer is “YES”.

Therefore, when you read a scripture that speaks of God creating all things “by His word” – isn't it most likely and most logically speaking about the fact that God did indeed create those things by His literal spoken words?

YES or NO?

May 1, 2014 at 6:34 am#380189

http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2014,11:33)

Actually Daniel,

Let me make this real easy for the both of us:

Is it clear from Genesis 1 that Jehovah God spoke literal words which caused the heavens, the stars, the earth, and the creatures on it to come into existence?

The only honest answer is “YES”.

YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

Creation is nothing in comparison with the Father's very own Son.

Creation was created by the Son, nothing was made without him. It appears you are trying to say that the Father created with a literal word what is excluding the Son who is known as The Word who was God and who nothing was made that had already been made without him.

For by him

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
By him was everything created which is in Heaven and in The Earth: everything that is seen and everything that is unseen

International Standard Version
For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible…

English Standard Version
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible….

New American Standard Bible
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible…

King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible….

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

The Son is FROM the Father alone and it is by the Son that all things are created.

Sorry I only had a few minutes today.

Please answer how the Father created without his Son when this goes directly against scripture.

Take care Mike and sorry for the short reply.

Life in the glorious Son, who alone is of the Fathers very substance.

Daniel

May 1, 2014 at 11:47 am#380201

Participant

Daniel

Quote

Creation is nothing in comparison with the Father's very own Son.

look how you deny the beginning of creation ,the scriptures says that the son was the first (beginning) of creation ;

Daniel you wipe out anything that does not support your conviction and so never answer are questions from scriptures ,

it sound like you have found your truth in the interpretation of men ,not from scriptures

the son is OF THE FATHER WHO HIS HIS GOD AND OURS ;FATHER MEANING THE LIFE GIVER;

May 2, 2014 at 1:23 am#380262

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ May 01 2014,00:34)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2014,11:33)

Actually Daniel,

Let me make this real easy for the both of us:

Is it clear from Genesis 1 that Jehovah God spoke literal words which caused the heavens, the stars, the earth, and the creatures on it to come into existence?

The only honest answer is “YES”.

YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

The Father DID create with literal words, Daniel. Have you ever read Genesis 1? “God SAID……. and it was so.”

It appears that YOU want to credit the SERVANT with creating all things – to the EXCLUSION of the Father God Almighty.

GOD created all things, Daniel……. not His holy spokesman Jesus Christ, who is metaphorically called “The Word of God” in three scriptures.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?

In your eagerness to credit the servant of God with the creation, you end up taking the glory for that creation away from the God who actually did it, Daniel.

I have now listed THREE different passages of scripture – all of which CLEARLY distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things. Will you just keep IGNORING those scriptures? (I have more, you know. )

Quote (4Thomas @ May 01 2014,00:34)

Please answer how the Father created without his Son when this goes directly against scripture.

I don't say the Father created WITHOUT Jesus, Daniel. Scripture teaches that God created all things THROUGH His Son, Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 8:6 puts it as plainly as it can be put, by saying all things are FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.

And yes, I'm aware of those Trinitarian translations that prefer to render the Greek word as “BY” instead of “THROUGH”. But if you would just read and BELIEVE those three passages I quoted for you, you would know who did the creating. Then you wouldn't be forced to play word games with “by” and “through” – because the question would be answered once and for all.

That being said, what does “through Jesus” mean in reference to the creation? I don't know exactly what role Jesus played – if any. I know that you were created BY God, and THROUGH your parents. In this case, it implies that your parents definitely had a part in the creation of you. But you would never EXCLUDE God, and say your parents created you all by themselves, right?

Yet this is what you are doing with Jesus. You are taking the fact that God created THROUGH him to mean that Jesus is the one who DID the creating.

Tertullian is the guy usually credited with the term “Trinity”. He is your “forefather”, Daniel. But listen to what he wrote a long time ago:

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

Do you see how the one THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is someone OTHER THAN the one who actually CREATED?

Your parents – the ones THROUGH WHOM God created you – are someone OTHER THAN the one who actually created you.

Similarly, Jesus – the one THROUGH WHOM God created all things – is someone OTHER THAN the one who actually did the creating.

Also, I can say God created you BY your parents. So even if you insist on a translation of “BY” instead of “THROUGH” – the meaning is still the same. Saying God created you BY your parents doesn't change the one who actually created you from “God” to “your parents”. God remains the one who actually did the creating of you.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 01 2014,00:34)

Take care Mike and sorry for the short reply.

Keep them that way!

May 2, 2014 at 1:35 am#380265

Blocked

Hey Daniel,

I just read this in another thread:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Once again, Christ is clearly distinguished as someone OTHER THAN the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness” – in other words, the one who SPOKE light into existence with His LITERAL words.

May 2, 2014 at 6:00 am#380288

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,12:35)

Hey Daniel,

I just read this in another thread:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Hi Mike,

Happy you are ok with the short reply as I only have a few minutes today.

Scripture teaches it is BY the Son and Through the Son and FOR the Son. these are not my words.

Colossians 1:16
English Standard Version
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Scripture (that I follow) also teaches that it is in him that

Colossians 1:17
New International Version
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

King James Bible
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So HOW? is it that Jesus sustains all things???
Scripture teaches that it by the Sons powerful word.
So everything in the universe is held together and sustained by THE Son's very own word.

By the Sons own literal powerful word. Its still FROM the Father because the Son is the only begotten FROM the Father. But its by the Sons literal word…

Hebrews 1:3
New International Version
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Ofcourse the Father testament of his unfammonable Almighty and eternal glory isn't in mere creation of the universe its in his eternal begotten radiance that is concentrated and expressed in the Lord of Glory who is the first and the last and his very own Son by substance.

Now we need to realise the thing that is causing you to slip up. That thing is that Jesus actually entered this world that he and his Father created.

That being that Jesus become part of creation, if you where a software designer it would be like you being able to have your Son enter a video game.

Now we need to realise as Jesus enetred the new creation, he became the last Adam, this is what scripture teaches.
Its actually amazes me that God's very own Son could humble himself to become part of creation as the new adam (firstbron among creation) and the firstborn from the dead.

I have been praying for you and i know because of your logic that you will come to accept Jesus for that which the jews could not, that being the very one and only own Son of God by nature and substance.

See
Jesus flesh is FROM Mary, he is human in everyway
Jesus spirit is FROM and OF his Fathers very substance
Jesus soul is the his entire being, that being the expression of both of his human flesh and his spirits divinity.

We have a spirit, soul and body in our case they are all human.
Jesus who became the Christ bridged the gap to become the one Body, the access to the Spirit of God through the person (soul) of Christ. We have access through the one body and one spirit (the holy Spirit). We should always humble ourselfs to the Holy Spirit.

Take care and hope you have a great weekend
Daniel

May 2, 2014 at 2:17 pm#380300

Participant

Daniel

Quote

Jesus flesh is FROM Mary, he is human in everyway

think again ,mary did not create flesh but God did ,this is why scriptures says ALL FLESH BELONG TO ME ;JER 32:27 “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh,

JN 17:2 even as You(GOD) gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

THE ONE THAT GIVES AUTHORITY OVER ALL FLESH IS THE ONE THAT OWNS IT ;GOD ALMIGHTY.

SO AGAIN YOU ARE NOT RIGHT ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES ;

May 4, 2014 at 6:11 pm#380473

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ May 02 2014,00:00)

Scripture teaches it is BY the Son and Through the Son and FOR the Son. these are not my words.

Didn't you read my last post? God created you BY your parents. But it was still GOD who actually created you, Daniel.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ…….

Can you see how the word “by” doesn't change the fact that it was still GOD who did the creating? Just because God chooses to create things BY (or “through”) His holy servant Jesus Christ, it doesn't eliminate GOD as the actual Creator.

So right now, we've learned NOT to twist the teaching of scriptures just because of the choice of some translators to use the word “by” – which by all accounts, often has the very same meaning as the word “through” anyway.

And we've learned NOT to twist the teaching of scriptures by assuming every instance of the phrase “word of God” in scripture refers to God's holy spokesman, Jesus Christ – who is indeed metaphorically called “The Word of God” in a couple of scriptures.

That means that we've still got to learn those SEVEN scriptures (so far) that I've quoted for you. We've got to learn that those scriptures CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things.

So far, the scriptures are:

1. The prayer in Acts 4, which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator.

2. The teaching in Acts 17,which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator.

3. The Isaiah 42 passage, in which Jehovah identifies Himself as the Creator, and then proceeds to speak to His servant Jesus Christ.

4. Genesis 1, which shows us that GOD created by His LITERAL spoken word.

5. Malachi 2:10, which makes it clear that THE FATHER is the GOD who created all of us.

6. 1 Corinthians 8:6, which makes it clear that all things came FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ.

7. 2 Corinthians 4:6, which teaches us that God LITERALLY spoke words from His mouth, causing light to shine out of the darkness. This verse also clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who spoke light out of darkness.

I will add another to the list:

Revelation
4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,

4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the middle of the throne area, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

5:7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

So the Lamb is distinguished as someone OTHER THAN “Him who sits on the throne”. And “Him who sits on the throne” is the one who created all things.

So now there are EIGHT of them, Daniel. Will you ever ADDRESS any of them? Or will you just keep “preaching” other things, while AVOIDING these CLEAR and UNDENIABLE scriptures?

May 5, 2014 at 1:25 am#380545

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2014,05:11)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 02 2014,00:00)

Scripture teaches it is BY the Son and Through the Son and FOR the Son. these are not my words.

Didn't you read my last post? God created you BY your parents. But it was still GOD who actually created you, Daniel.

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ…….

So far, the scriptures are:

1. The prayer in Acts 4, which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator.

2. The teaching in Acts 17,which distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the Creator.

3. The Isaiah 42 passage, in which Jehovah identifies Himself as the Creator, and then proceeds to speak to His servant Jesus Christ.

4. Genesis 1, which shows us that GOD created by His LITERAL spoken word.

5. Malachi 2:10, which makes it clear that THE FATHER is the GOD who created all of us.

6. 1 Corinthians 8:6, which makes it clear that all things came FROM the Father, and THROUGH Jesus Christ.

I will add another to the list:

Revelation
4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,

4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the middle of the throne area, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

5:7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

So the Lamb is distinguished as someone OTHER THAN “Him who sits on the throne”. And “Him who sits on the throne” is the one who created all things.

So now there are EIGHT of them, Daniel. Will you ever ADDRESS any of them? Or will you just keep “preaching” other things, while AVOIDING these CLEAR and UNDENIABLE scriptures?

Hi Mike,

I'm not twisting any scripture -you know this is the truth. You believe that it was the Father alone who spoke and created everything withOUT the Son, PLEASE explain HOW you can reconcile this with scriptures. Jesus is THE Word of God and more powerful that a *literal* Word FROM the Father, or do you think a literal word FROM the Father is more powerful??? Please explain… Does THE Father have another Son??

Jesus is FROM the Father and SCRIPTURE teaches that it is JESUS word that Sustains all things, this is the Word of Truth.

Scripture also teaches that it is through/by the Word (rhema) that the heavens are made, so it very easy to see it was through THE Words (logos) word (rhema) that the heavens are made. Because its FROM the Father and through/BY the Son. Without the Son NOTHING was made that has BEEN made so it can't be the Father (rhema) Word excluding the Father's Logos (THE Word). Instead its FROM the Fathers and BY his Logos [The Son] who speaks the rhema (word). The same rhema (word) that sustains the ENTIRE Universe.

God said be fruitful and multiply, through the expression of Love in the one flesh, man and women being Wed and made one flesh in unity through Love are able to be fruitful and multiply. The expression is the beautiful image of God.

There is a MASSIVE!!!! difference between creating the very first human and there DNA structure and their very own ability to self pro-create, when compared to the difference of making love and multiplying. The Father and Son image is revealed as the comparism between Adam and Eve. Eve was begotten from Adam.

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let usmake mankind in ourimage, in ourlikeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Let me get it clear, are you comparing the one and only Son of God, to animals being fruitful and multiplying?
Do the animals sustain the entire universe by their powerful Word? NO << See the difference my friend PLEASE!!

Even dogs and cats give birth and are involved in the process of life being born. Even basic cells can multiply.

All you need to believe is that Jesus the one and only true Son of god by nature/substance is FROM and OF the Father substance alone. God from God light from light, true God FROM true God. OFcourse they are ONE when the Son is FROM and OF the ONE Father > ONE God.

Life in the Son and in his name, the name of Love > “Jehovah Saves”

Daniel

May 5, 2014 at 1:33 am#380547

Participant

Hi Mike,
Here is some help..

Lets obey the Fathers words!

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”

Which are DIRECT reference to Jehovah (*the* Son)

Psalm 102:25-27
24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end

Scripture is explicitly clear that it was God ALONE who made the heavens and the earth. He was by himself and there was no other with him.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Isaiah 48:12-13
12″Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13″Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together.

Who is the first and the last? Whose hand created the heavens?

Hebrews 1:10-12
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

But right before this amazing revelation we have scripture revealing that before Yahweh there was no God formed and that there will be no God formed after either, truly God is -ONE Nature/Substance-

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

No God before or after… What did the father say and reveal.
He quoted Psalm to reveal the it was Jehovah (the Son) God by nature, the true one and only Son.

Life in the Son.
Daniel

May 5, 2014 at 1:39 am#380552

Participant

Hi Mike,
The Lamb and all your examples of YOUR questions are Jesus as the Son of Man. I agree Jesus didn't create the heavens as the Son of man or the lamb of God. He created them BEFORE the the Word was made flesh. remember the Word was God and all things were made through him and FOR him.

Jesus became the Son of Man because he LOVES us, he Loves you and wants mercy instead of judgement.

Give me any single direct question, one at a time. Give m your BEST question and it will be clear as we go through YOUR questions one by one.

WHAT was THE Son before he took flesh is the answer I want FROM you.
We all have a spirit so please don't be vage and just call jesus a spirit. It would be helpful if you could give him a name, i think you admit that he was called Jehovah in the old testament so if you dont have a name we can stick with that.

put your trust in Jesus, not man, try it and love Jesus with all your heart soul and mind.

take care and i'm happy to answer any single question if you want me too.

Love and life in the Son, choose life not man
Daniel

May 5, 2014 at 2:18 pm#380625

Participant

Daniel

you have not addressed Mike question at all

May 6, 2014 at 1:30 am#380742

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2014,01:18)

Daniel

you have not addressed Mike question at all

Hi T,
I'm sorry, Yes you are right, I didn't have time to explain them so I summarized by saying.

I don't believe Jesus as the Son of man and the lamb of god created the heavens.

So with all the scriptures that reveal the messiah we need to realise that the Word was God, he is NOT just a man alone, he is not just the lamb of God.

Jesus is indeed the sacrificial offering and at the same time he is ALSO *the* high priest. See how he is both priest and offering. ALSO he did these roles as the Son of *man*.

He became a priest, that why he had to wait until he was 30 years old for his ministry to start because you needed to be this age to a a priest. Jesus filled all the old testment conditions perfectly.

T and Mike, you need to understand I want nothing more than truth. SO I cant answer every single question that says how can Jesus be the creator when he is the Lamb of God or a man or a baby etc…

This debate is focussed on WHAT was Jesus before he took flesh. Every scriptures states he was God who humbled hisself to *become* a servant. SO * please* if you are interested in truth lets focus on him before he took flesh as the suffering seravnt.

I believe Jesus created the heavens as the Word [Logos] who is God [Jehovah the Son].

This is a good and fair question.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So is through[by] the Logos [the Word] that all things are ***created**** Its FROM the Father so the Father didn't create in isolation did he because it was BY/through the Son , who is THE Logos.

The Son is FROM and OF the one Father > One God. The Son is the begotten **radiance** [Logos] of the Fathers glory, that's why he is called the Lord of Glory. God from God, 1×1 = 1

I have done more study on Mikes question with the different between the Word [Captilised W > logos] and the small w word[rhema]
Very interesting and this reveals that its the Sons rhema that sustains and created the heavens. Common sense shows that the Son is FROM the Father and if its BY/THROUGH the Son it through the Sons word [rhema] that the heavens are made.

CHECK THIS OUT!!!!

Its BY the Logos, The Word [ captial e.g Logos ]

Scripture states, it ***BY*** the God's Logos, his Son. PLEASE guys lets not deliberately forget these scriptures as they are WARNINGS…

2 Peter 3:5
New International Version
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

English Standard Version
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word [Logos] of God,

See the truth, it by the Logos and the Logos of God is the only begotten God.
If its by the Logos it by his command, this is obvious, it can't be by the logos and then by the rhema of the Father.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word[rhema] of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

HERE IS ANOTHER EXPLICIT example, check this out!!!

The Logos of God. the Son of God

Hebrews 4:12
New International Version
For the word[logos] of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Below the Logos is called the rhema of God because it the Logos Word. the Logos literal word is the rhema.

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word[rhema] of God.

Which is the rhema of God, the logos Word.

Other times the Logos and the rhema are interchanged, because the rhema is the logos literal word.

Mark 14:72 And Peter called to mind the word (4487- rhema) that Jesus said unto him, Before the **** crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:61 And Peter remembered the word (Strong’s # 3056 – logos) of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

BOTH logos and rhema used for exactly the same thing.

There is more to say but lets not forgot

Hebrew 1:10
New International Version
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

and lets not forgot

Isaiah 51:13
New International Version
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?
51:14 > continues
The cowering prisoners will soon be set free; they will not die in their dungeon, nor will they lack bread.

2 Peter 3:5
New International Version
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word [Logos] the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Peter continues to say it the same Logos that is reserved for Judgement

2 Peter 3:7
New International Version
By the same [logos] word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Indeed the Logos will destroy by the splendor of his [the Logos] coming

2 Thessalonians 2:8
New International Version
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Happy to look at any part of what I have said or any part that you like in great detail to get to the core of the truth. I trust in Jesus and his[ the logos] rhema keeps revealing more and more that he is truly the one and only Son of God by substance/nature from the One God, the eternal Almighty Father.

take care and I wish you every blessing in the Son, put your *trust* in the Son, we are blessed with the mercy he offers us.
Daniel

May 6, 2014 at 2:12 am#380754