Who is this Jesus?

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
I have to go, look at how Genesis call Gods *him* and *us* [our image – male and female]

now the angels are NOT in the image and glory of the Father. God will not give his glory to another..

Life in the one and ONLY Son
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2014,19:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,04:46) 1.  When you speak of our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, do you refer to that God as a “Him”, or as a “Them”?  And if God is not a “Them”, then how can you be both a brother and a son to HIM? 2.  Of what SUBSTANCE were Satan and God's other spirit sons made?  What did God make them OUT OF? Hi Mike, God made Satan out of NOTHING.

I didn't see a direct answer to question #1, Daniel.  If it was hidden in the “sermon”, please bring it out and post ONLY that direct answer in your next post.  (Note that question #1 has two parts……. please answer them both.)

As for your answer to #2, is there a scripture that says what you claim?  If so, show me that scripture.

Also, scripture or not, know that what you're saying is that NOTHING else BESIDES GOD HIMSELF was used in the creation of Satan.

Also, since Jesus and Satan are but two of God's MANY spirit sons – why do you suppose the word “son” means one thing in the case of Jesus, and something completely different in the case of God's other spirit sons?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2014,12:57)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2014,19:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,04:46) 1.  When you speak of our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, do you refer to that God as a “Him”, or as a “Them”?  And if God is not a “Them”, then how can you be both a brother and a son to HIM? 2.  Of what SUBSTANCE were Satan and God's other spirit sons made?  What did God make them OUT OF? Hi Mike, God made Satan out of NOTHING. I didn't see a direct answer to question #1, Daniel.  If it was hidden in the “sermon”, please bring it out and post ONLY that direct answer in your next post.  (Note that question #1 has two parts……. please answer them both.) As for your answer to #2, is there a scripture that says what you claim?  If so, show me that scripture. Also, scripture or not, know that what you're saying is that NOTHING else BESIDES GOD HIMSELF was used in the creation of Satan. Also, since Jesus and Satan are but two of God's MANY spirit sons – why do you suppose the word “son” means one thing in the case of Jesus, and something completely different in the case of God's other spirit sons?

Hi Mike,
I will keep answering your questions even though you dont answer mine.

The Word created the heavens, the father says it was the Sons hands that created the heavens.

2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

Interesting the World was created out of Water,

So Water is a key thing to understand in our material visable world.

The unbegotten snow
The begotten water that flows form it

Like the Son/Word that comes and is FROM the fathers substance.

Jesus created the seraphim, the “burning ones” and the cherubim and the arch angels (or chief angels recorded in daniel)

Psalm 33:9
For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

The Word of God, THE Son didn't create the seraphim to then have them create the cherubim, to then have them create the arch angels, then to have the arch angels create the their angel… then to have the angels create the humans etc..

Its BY the Word of the Father, the fathers express/begotten substance.

There is NO proof that the word or the angels where created FROM the Sons/Words very substance instead it is BY the Word and the command.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

Hebrews 11:3
English Standard Version
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

there is a ****HUGE*** difference in scripture between THE Son of God and angels being A Son of God.
This is the key, this is the foundation of WHAT Jesus, the Lord of Lords is.

Who is the God OF the spirits mike?

Love in *the* Son
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 15 2014,00:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2014,12:57) Quote (4Thomas @ April 14 2014,19:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,04:46) 1.  When you speak of our ONE and ONLY Almighty God, do you refer to that God as a “Him”, or as a “Them”?  And if God is not a “Them”, then how can you be both a brother and a son to HIM? 2.  Of what SUBSTANCE were Satan and God's other spirit sons made?  What did God make them OUT OF? Hi Mike, God made Satan out of NOTHING. I didn't see a direct answer to question #1, Daniel. As for your answer to #2, is there a scripture that says what you claim?  If so, show me that scripture. Hi Mike, I will keep answering your questions even though you dont answer mine.

But you're not really “answering” them, Daniel.  I ask a question, and get an unrelated sermon containing all kinds of things you IMAGINE teach us that the holy SERVANT of God IS the very God he serves.

But no real ANSWERS.

So instead of answering the first question, which you seem unable to do, let's just make a deal:  From now on, when you talk about “God”, I don't ever want you to use singular pronouns like “He”, “His”, and “Him”.  Instead, since you think “God” consists of three persons, I want you to forevermore use PLURAL pronouns like “They”, “Them”, and “Theirs”.

Deal?  I want you to say things like, “When God created the world, THEY did it in six days.”

Because that is what you believe, right?  You believe God is a THEY, right?  So put your money where your mouth is, and start talking according to what you believe.  

So you're off the hook with #1.  I am, however, still awaiting the scripture that says Satan was “created out of NOTHING”.  (Since we both know there is no such scripture, be a stand-up guy and just say your claim is pure, unsupported speculation on your part.)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 15 2014,00:07)

Who is the God OF the spirits mike?

The God of the spirits is the God of gods, who is also the Most High God and the God of all creation.  He is both OUR one and only God and also JESUS' one and only God.

He is the God of you, me, Jesus, and Satan.  His name is Jehovah, and He is our everlasting heavenly Father.

Btw Daniel, Jesus is never said to have created a single thing in scripture.  I realize that you like to IMAGINE that certain scriptures teach Jesus as the Creator, but let's see if one simple scripture can set you straight:

Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them……..

1.  WHO did they pray to, Daniel?

2.  Was the one they prayed to the one who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them?  YES or NO?

25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:

“‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?

26 The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed one.’

1.  WHO is this “anointed one”?  Is he the one they are praying TO?

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

Okay, so now we know who the “anointed one” is, right?

1.  Based on the use of the pronoun “your”, is this “holy servant Jesus” the one they are praying TO?

I could go on with the rest of the prayer, but it would be redundant.  The part I've posted should be enough to show you that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the one they prayed to – and therefore someone OTHER THAN the one called “God” – and therefore someone OTHER THAN the one who created the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

Have I set you straight about this?  Because I have another 7 or 8 similar passages that clearly distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things.  Let me know if you need to see the next one on my list.

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
To provide you a clearer answer.

I usually call the Son Lord and the Father God.
I sometimes do call the Son my God and the Father my Lord.

Its important to note sacred scripture reveals God in the plural and not the singular! This is very explicitly seen time and time again. Even the word for God [Elohim in the Hebrew], the MOST often used word for God in the Old testament is a plural noun.

Genesis 2:22-23
Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”

I don't believe the Father and Son are to be looked at as one being masculine  and the other being feminine. Instead I believe God created man in his image as Eve comes FROM and OF adams substance and that EVE is NOT another male but the expressed glory of Adam. Another Adam would not bring the satisfaction to Adam.

The Father could not take flesh because he is the SOURCE of the Son, only the Son can humble himself to take flesh and die for our Sins. We can't even access the father without first having access to the father radiance his Son/Word who is the creator of the heavens.

Just like Adam and Eve are different, Adam being the Source and Eve being the only one who can carry and nourish a child inside her, she alone gives birth to the Child.
The Father is NOT begotten he has no need to do ANYTHING all his joy is in his Son.
The Word/Son is FROM the Father and it is BY the Word/Son that the heavens are *created* as scripture reveals.
   
Genesis 5:1-2
This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.

Hope I answered your question.
I love testing my beliefs and I want YOU to be a great witness that THE Son of God is truly the one and only Son by nature and substance.

I honestly feel God wanting this and I know he wants me to battle against the culture of death, abortion etc… BUT i know I cant do this until I see those like Paul, the Hebrews of hebrews to be raised up and take their place to win souls to THE Son of God.

Please keep asking me question – what do you want me to believe?

Think about that question?
do you want me to believe that Jesus THE Son of god is just like a angel Son or an Adam Son?

BTW whose Angel was the Angel in Revelation 22

Revelation 22
6And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

So The God of the spirits above is identified as Jesus below because the angel in Revelation 22 is identified as Jesus personal angel when he calls “my angel”.

Revelation 22
16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Love in THE Son
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 15 2014,18:54)

Instead I believe God created man in his image………

No, no, no, Daniel.

You're not allowed to say “HIS image” anymore – since you think God is a “THEY”. And especially when you've given me the tired old Trinitarian speech about man being “body, soul, and spirit”, and we are also therefore “three in one, like God”. So if we are “three in one” like God is “three in one”, then say God created us in THEIR image.

Speak according to what you believe, Daniel. That is all I'm asking.

Btw, I would be happy to address all your “word created” scriptures, and the plural word “elohim”, and all of your other misunderstandings.

And I WILL discuss those things with you if you are willing to do them ONE SCRIPTURE AT A TIME.

Like most Trinitarians I've conversed with, you too like to flood your posts with SO MUCH stuff at once, that it would take me HOURS to address all the scriptures you are misunderstanding. And I will not spend HOURS on a single post.

So while you might think I can't refute all your good “proofs”, I'm really just ignoring them in favor of staying focused on the thing we are currently discussing.

I told you this same thing a long time ago……. remember?

Since we know there is no scripture that says God created Satan out of nothing, we can move on from that one too.

Which brings us to our current discussion about who created all things.

I have offered you ONE passage in Acts 4 as my first proof. You can pick ONE of the scriptures from your last post as your proof. Let's discuss my ONE scripture, and your ONE scripture – and see where it leads us………….. WITHOUT bringing a bunch of other unrelated “Jesus is God proofs” into the mix.

Slow and steady wins the race, Daniel.

I await your thoughts on that prayer in Acts 4.

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
Are you honestly saying that THE Son is NOT the Word of God.

Hebrews 11:3
English Standard Version
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

The Father created FROM his ***Word*** because it was BY the Word of God that all things are made.

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Do you think that the son took mounatins FROM the Father and just placed them, think about things honestly, its BY the Word of God that all things ARE created.

The Son is the God of the spirits he is THE Lord of Lords.

Mike, my friend please be honest to yourself and realise Jesus isn't just a servant, WHAT was he before he was a servant.

Scripture has this truth and Life to led us to all truth…
Scripture teaches the son is the very nature of his Father BUT became a servant so he could die.

Philippians 2 NIV
6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very natureb of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death….

2 Corinthians 8:9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

He wants YOU to be rich, there is no angel Jesus. Jesus is THE Son of God.

I was talking to an Atheists about the Son of God and it got him so mad because he did not want to come to the truth.

I Love the Son of God and want you to Love him and have an amazing relationship with him our servant King.

So Jesus is THE God of the Spirits. Let me know if you need me to clarify further.

The Word God is a plural noun and even God refers to himself as OUR image, he is talking about how the nature of man [male and female] is in the nature of God [The Father and The Son]

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

We can say God created MAN singular and understand that he created BOTH male and female.

Take care – I honestly with all my heart believe what I wrote so test what I say.

Love in the Son.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
in summary there is LOTS and ***LOTS** of example of THE Son of God being a true Human by nature.

We can point to lots of examples of Jesus being the servant
Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

The Word become flesh, God the Son became a man, as a man he was anointed…

I understand that there are heaps more examples of Jesus living as a man on the earth than compared to the examples of the Son being seen by Moses as Jehovah but what I've always asked is WHAT was Jesus before he took flesh.

Mike, I know Jesus became a *man* he is THE Son of Man.

Lets focus on the scriptures that teach WHAT he was before he humbled himself to take flesh….

From the last post I gave you an explicit example THAT stated he was the very nature of God [his Father] but he became ***poor** because he loves YOU and ME. Ofcourse as amn he could be anointed as a priest and have all the weakness of a mere man. We both believe this.

1 Timothy 3:16 NIV
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

WHAT WAS HE BEFORE HE APPEARED in the flesh…..?

What was he before he become poor??

THE Word was God!
THE only Son of God – the Word of God *created* all things it was not a angel jesus…

Please just believe that Jesus is THE only true Son of God FROM and OF his Fathers substance.

So I have answered your verse, now do you honestly NOT believe that Jesus is THE Word of God that scripture teaches created the universe?

The verse that says by faith we know that BY….
Please read my last post.

Take care my friend.

Love in the Son
Daniel

[terraricca]

Daniel
(THE Word was God!
THE only Son of God – the Word of God *created* all things it was not a angel jesus…

Please just believe that Jesus is THE only true Son of God FROM and OF his Fathers substance.)

explain how the son is God

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 15 2014,19:15)

Hi Mike, Are you honestly saying that THE Son is NOT the Word of God. Hebrews 11:3 English Standard Version By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. The Father created FROM his ***Word*** because it was BY the Word of God that all things are made.

Hi Daniel,

I understand that one of Jesus' many titles is “The Word of God”.  He has this title because he is God's main spokesman – not because he is a literal word God spoke.

But you need to understand that 99.9% of the time, the phrase “the word of God” refers to literal words God Himself has spoken.

The few times that phrase refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ, the “W” in “word” is capitalized.  (John 1:1, 1:14, and Revelation 19:13)

There are a couple of other verses where “word” could be referring to Jesus Christ…… but the Bible translators don't think it is, and therefore don't capitalize the “W” in “word”.  1 John 1:1 and Hebrews 11:3 come to mind.  

I personally believe the “Word of Life” in 1 John 1:1 is Jesus Christ – as the context dictates it is.  (In what other way could they “see” and “touch” a word, right?)

And I could go either way with Hebrews 11:3 – since either Jesus, or the literal words God spoke, would fit the context of the statement.

But it is obvious that most Bible translators don't think 11:3 refers to Jesus, or they would have capitalized the “W” in “word” in that verse.

So, according to even the Trinitarian-sponsored translations, the phrase “word of God” in Hebrews 11:3 refers to literal words God spoke.  For example, God said, “Let there be light.”  And we know from scripture that God said those literal words, and then light came to be.

And in that case, we could say that light was created by “the word of God”.  But we wouldn't be talking about Jesus in that statement…….. we would be talking about literal words that God spoke out of His mouth.

So the first thing you've got to realize is that the phrase “word of God” very rarely refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ.  That phrase ALMOST ALWAYS refers to literal words God spoke – and not to Jesus.

So the next time you want to imagine Jesus into the phrase “word of God” in any particular scripture, first check to see if your Trinitarian translators capped the “W”.  If they didn't, it is because they realize the phrase in that scripture doesn't refer to Jesus – but instead to literal words God spoke.

So, do a word search of the phrase “word of God” in the scriptures, and see how many of them have a capped “W”.  You'll see it is only three in most Bibles.

So that's the first lesson, Daniel.  You must learn to recognize when the phrase “word of God” refers to God's spokesman Jesus Christ – and when it refers to literal words God spoke.

You can't just go through the Bible and insert “Jesus” into certain scriptures – just because those scriptures have the phrase “word of God”.

I suggest that until you get used to recognizing the difference, just go by the way your Trinitarian translators rendered it. If the “W” isn't capped, the “word of God” in that verse is not Jesus Christ.

Any questions yet? (Note: I said “questions”, not “sermons”. )

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2014,00:11)

We can point to lots of examples of Jesus being the servant Acts 4:27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. The Word become flesh, God the Son became a man, as a man he was anointed…

Hi Daniel,

Are you telling me that Jesus was NOT God when he was a man?  Because if you claim he WAS still God – even as a man – then I don't want to hear a single excuse like, “That's because he was in a lowered flesh state at that time, Mike…….”

Jesus either WAS God on earth, in which case all things that apply to God will also apply to Jesus………. or he was NOT God on earth, in which case you can make excuses about his lowered flesh state while he was on earth.

But you can't do both, Daniel.  Make a choice, and stick with it for the duration of our discussions.

See what I mean?  You are making an excuse for why Jesus was a servant OF God – and anointed BY God.  You are making him LESS THAN God while he was on earth.  And if that is the case, then you need to STICK WITH your understanding that Jesus was LESS THAN God while he was on earth.

I won't stand for you flipping back and forth between claiming he WAS God on earth, and then making excuses for his “less than God” state while he was on earth.  Pick one and stick with it, okay?

That being said………………….

You didn't really address the point of my post, Daniel.  I wasn't asking why Jesus was an anointed servant.  I was asking if you can see the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN the one THEY SAID “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” – and His holy servant Jesus Christ.

In other words, do you realize that they list Jesus Christ as someone OTHER THAN the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” ?

Surely being a human anointed servant wouldn't ERASE the fact that Jesus created all of those things, right?  So why do they mention Jesus as a completely different person than the person who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” ?

I want you to recognize that the Apostles of Christ who made this prayer did NOT consider Jesus to be the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”.

Do you recognize that fact?  YES or NO?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2014,11:23)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2014,00:11) We can point to lots of examples of Jesus being the servant Acts 4:27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. The Word become flesh, God the Son became a man, as a man he was anointed… Hi Daniel, Are you telling me that Jesus was NOT God when he was a man?  Because if you claim he WAS still God – even as a man – then I don't want to hear a single excuse like, “That's because he was in a lowered flesh state at that time, Mike…….” Jesus either WAS God on earth, in which case all things that apply to God will also apply to Jesus………. or he was NOT God on earth, in which case you can make excuses about his lowered flesh state while he was on earth. But you can't do both, Daniel.  Make a choice, and stick with it for the duration of our discussions. See what I mean?  You are making an excuse for why Jesus was a servant OF God – and anointed BY God.  You are making him LESS THAN God while he was on earth.  And if that is the case, then you need to STICK WITH your understanding that Jesus was LESS THAN God while he was on earth. I won't stand for you flipping back and forth between claiming he WAS God on earth, and then making excuses for his “less than God” state while he was on earth.  Pick one and stick with it, okay? That being said…………………. You didn't really address the point of my post, Daniel.  I wasn't asking why Jesus was an anointed servant.  I was asking if you can see the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN the one THEY SAID “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” – and His holy servant Jesus Christ. In other words, do you realize that they list Jesus Christ as someone OTHER THAN the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” ? Surely being a human anointed servant wouldn't ERASE the fact that Jesus created all of those things, right?  So why do they mention Jesus as a completely different person than the person who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them” ? I want you to recognize that the Apostles of Christ who made this prayer did NOT consider Jesus to be the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”. Do you recognize that fact?  YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

Mike, Jesus is not every Word of the Father, Jesus is the expressed Word of the Fathers Almighty Power, Glory and radiance that has always been begotten FROM the unchanging Father. Scripture teaches THE **Father** is **unchanging**

Jesus, is

The only true Son of God, FROM the Father substance
and
The Son of Man, true man by substance FROM mary.

The Son is NOT mary and he is NOT the Father, yet he is the True Son FROM both

Common sense reveals he has two natures, Man and God [the Son From his true Father]

Jesus was a man Yes/No    > the right answer is Yes

So in his flesh

Do you understand that the word “all things”, in greek really means Jesus made all things??

John knows the Old testament better than us and he knows that scripture teaches it was my THE Word that the heavens were made….

All things explicitly means everything.

I will believe the Fathers words that explicitly say THE heavens are the works of THE Sons hands.

Hebrews 1:10
New International Version
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

The Father the Almighty and great Paul, the beloved John  do you want every example..

Again Mike i'm asking FOR  

WHAT was Jesus THE Son of God before he became *flesh**

The Word (The Son) was God. No one has seen God but **The** ONLY begotten God. The God of the spirits.

There is no condemnation in THE Son but Life and Love.

Take care and please see THAT I want you to have the Son and belong to him.

Life in THE Son and in his name
Daniel

[NickHassan]

Hi WU,
You say
“God send his image down to earth and tranformed him into flesh by being *born of the womb*.
The birth is the process of turning God's Word into flesh.”

But scripture says he was conceived

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2014,19:56)

Again Mike i'm asking FOR   WHAT was Jesus THE Son of God before he became *flesh**

Sorry my friend,

I will not be moved off topic.  Right now we have to get some closure on a couple of things before we move forward:

1.  I want you to recognize that the Apostles of Christ who made the prayer in Acts 4 did NOT consider Jesus to be the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”.

Do you recognize that fact?  YES or NO?

2.  Are you willing to use the discretion of the expert Trinitarian scholars who translated the English versions when it comes to “the word of God”?  

Are you willing to accept that if the “W” isn't capitalized, the phrase DOESN'T refer to Jesus Christ? YES or NO?

Those are the ONLY two things I want addressed right now – and I want you to DIRECTLY address them.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2014,19:56)

Scripture teaches THE **Father** is **unchanging**

Use common sense on that one, Daniel.

Although the BEING we know as “God” doesn't change, circumstances concerning Him DO CHANGE.

For example, “God” wasn't a ruler until He had someone to rule over.

And God wasn't a “Father” until he begat a child.

And God wasn't a “Savior” until He had someone to save.

Consider this bizarre statement………….

God is the one who led Israel to the promised land.  And since God never changes, He must have been, from eternity, leading Israel into the promised land.

See how lame that is?  So don't confuse the un-changeability of the BEING with the fact that circumstances surrounding that being have indeed changed over time – and continue to do so to this day.

For example, Jehovah was not YOUR ruler in 1611 AD, right?  But we can't say that YOU have been being “eternally begotten” from before time began – in an effort to make Jehovah be YOUR ruler from eternity – just so we can say “God never changes”.  

Because the fact is that He WASN'T literally your ruler until you existed.  But the fact that Jehovah wasn't your ruler – but then became your ruler – doesn't mean God Himself changed, Daniel.

Likewise, Jehovah wasn't Jesus' Father UNTIL Jesus was brought into existence.  And the fact that God didn't have a Son – but then did have a Son – doesn't mean that God Himself changed.

So even though this isn't one of the two points we are currently in the middle of, I think we can eliminate this argument for Jesus being “eternally begotten” from your bag of “proof texts”.

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2014,23:45)

Daniel (THE Word was God! THE only Son of God – the Word of God *created* all things it was not a angel jesus… Please just believe that Jesus is THE only true Son of God FROM and OF his Fathers substance.) explain how the son is God

Hi T,
By substance FROM his Father.

The very word God in hebrew is a plural word.

We we say Jesus is THE Son of man – well then I don't need to then explain to you how Jesus become a man.
Its honestly exactly the same thing. Jesus is NOT mary and Jesus is NOT the Father.

See I dont believe in a STATIC, Solitude God, I also dont believe in a NON eternal Father.

See I believe in an EXPRESSIVE God who radiates the testimony of his Magnificent glory. I look at the world and see it beauty, I see the beauty and compltness in adam and eve as the completeness and fullness of Man. I see the Father and the Son as the eternal glory of God.
The Father is the source and he is God and Father by nature.

BUT the very fact he is Father means he radiants his glory. Its not another substance BUT a TRUE Son from the source.

Father expresses his Son, yet you dont have another or different substance.

1 x 1 is still 1 the same substance/nature.
Adam and Eve are still man [human]
Eve is FROM the rib of Adam where as Jesus is FROM the expressed Almighty radiance of the Father. The Word is NOT the father or another Father he is FROM the Father's very substance.

Just believe that Jesus is The True Son of man
THE man Jesus
AND

ALSO believe that Jesus is THE ONLY True Son of God

Thats why scripture call him God time when ever they talk about Jesus before he humbled himself to take on flesh.

Life to you in the Son and his beautiful name
Take care.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2014,12:24)

Quote (4Thomas @ April 16 2014,19:56) Again Mike i'm asking FOR   WHAT was Jesus THE Son of God before he became *flesh** Sorry my friend, I will not be moved off topic.  Right now we have to get some closure on a couple of things before we move forward: 1.  I want you to recognize that the Apostles of Christ who made the prayer in Acts 4 did NOT consider Jesus to be the one who “made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them”. Do you recognize that fact?  YES or NO? 2.  Are you willing to use the discretion of the expert Trinitarian scholars who translated the English versions when it comes to “the word of God”?   Are you willing to accept that if the “W” isn't capitalized, the phrase DOESN'T refer to Jesus Christ?  YES or NO? Those are the ONLY two things I want addressed right now – and I want you to DIRECTLY address them.

No sorry my friend

The reason is because we know that although Jesus is not every Word of the Father Jesus is revealed as THE Word of the Father.

We know that NOTHING that has been made was made WITHOUT the Son and we know.

Genesis 1 and John 1, lets be honest my friend and face what Johns revealing….

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 calls him THE **only** begotten God, NOT a god as you cant be THE God and the only God and a God all at the same time.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Jesus is THE Word

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

THE Word is described as a **HE** in the very same context!

Psalm 33:4
New International Version
For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does.

Now are you saying that The Father created the Heavens by a different Word to his Son, (the Word) the Lord of Glory and his very own begotten radiance??? Yes/No

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Its **through** the Word… The Fathers begotten glory The only true Son.

John 1:3
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Only THROUGH Jesus are all things made. Made means created. By **the** Word of God.

Do you believe in another expressed Word of God FROM the Father that created the heavens?

Please see what I say is true.

Love and life in the Son
Daniel

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ April 22 2014,07:13)

Quote (terraricca @ April 16 2014,23:45) Daniel (THE Word was God! THE only Son of God – the Word of God *created* all things it was not a angel jesus… Please just believe that Jesus is THE only true Son of God FROM and OF his Fathers substance.) explain how the son is God Hi T, By substance FROM his Father. The very word God in hebrew is a plural word. We we say Jesus is THE Son of man – well then I don't need to then explain to you how Jesus become a man. Its honestly exactly the same thing. Jesus is NOT mary and Jesus is NOT the Father. See I dont believe in a STATIC, Solitude God, I also dont believe in a NON eternal Father. See I believe in an EXPRESSIVE God who radiates the testimony of his Magnificent glory. I look at the world and see it beauty, I see the beauty and compltness in adam and eve as the completeness and fullness of Man. I see the Father and the Son as the eternal glory of God. The Father is the source and he is God and Father by nature. BUT the very fact he is Father means he radiants his glory. Its not another substance BUT a TRUE Son from the source. Father expresses his Son, yet you dont have another or different substance. 1 x 1 is still 1 the same substance/nature. Adam and Eve are still man [human] Eve is FROM the rib of Adam where as Jesus is FROM the expressed Almighty radiance of the Father. The Word is NOT the father or another Father he is FROM the Father's very substance. Just believe that Jesus is The True Son of man THE man Jesus AND ALSO believe that Jesus is THE ONLY True Son of God Thats why scripture call him God time when ever they talk about Jesus before he humbled himself to take on flesh.   Life to you in the Son and his beautiful name Take care. Daniel

Daniel

Christ is the the son of God ,understand that as soon as he has been created ,he is now a different person /being from the father and God that created him , in Heaven Jesus was not the son of man ,this he became when he was born from Mary 's womb ;already possessing the title of son of God ,now he acquired the title of son of man ,

just as we are created through our parents ,we become totally independent of them after becoming mature ,

so it is with God

[NickHassan]

Hi WU,
You say
“The spirit inside him is different,for God himself dwells in him.”

He had a human spirit just like ours that left at calvary

Lk 23
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

[NickHassan]

Hi WU,
Of course Jesus was conceived in Mary

[Author]

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