Who is this Jesus?

[terraricca]

Daniel

You do it again ,not answering my question ,

What you are saying is not an answer because it is a plain lie ,It Can Not be said for the Father,

Your big quote does not contain one truth ,and I do not smoke so your smoke screen does not impress me,

You are wiifully believing in the lies of the devil for your own interest and purpose and rejecting the truth of God , truth written by his prophets ,the very words that his son came and confirmed for the glory of his father ,

So you are not deceived but preach deceit ,

You are serving men and the great deceiver

[4Thomas]

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,15:31)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2013,13:11) Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,05:24) Please read what I have written carefully I only write it because I want you to be saved. With love Daniel daniel Quote If you want to answer any question please answer this so I can see what you think is truth. Is Jesus ***YOUR*** 1: true Saviour 2: true God 3: true Angel 4: true Lord If you cant answer that SIMPLE question you are on quicksand and are deceived so i a wait your reply. Build on the rock of Christ. first you did not answer my questions,WHY??? BUT THAT'S OK ; NOW ANSWER ME THIS ONLY QUESTION ; WHAT COULD OR CAN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN “SON OF THE FATHER ” DO FROM HIS OWN WILLFUL SELF Hi T, Same question could apply how can the Father be an Eternal Almighty Father of nothing without his Son. Its like having a Sun in the universe that doesn't radiant [beget] its glory to all the other planets.   I do not question that the Father eternally generates his perfect and true Son, light from light, true God from true God, expressed not made. Nothing was made that has been made without him. The Father is from whom all things are and the Son is through and FOR all things are made. That what scripture teaches. 1: The Son alone can reveal the Father. Luke 10:22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 2: The Son can make you *A* child of the Father. John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. 3: The Son alone can give you access to the Father 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? The Father LOVES those who LOVE the Son. John 16 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” If you Deny the Son you deny the Father. 1 John 2:23-24 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life. You need to be in the Son. John 5 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Jesus is the true Son of God, no other can compare to his Sonship – just like no other can compare to the Fathers, Fatherhood. Love and Life in *the* Son and in his name Daniel

Then refute the scriptures T,

You cant can you…. So you are the one using smoke screens, I come with scripture you come with NOT EVEN a knowledge of
if Jesus is
1:your true God
2:your true Lord
3:your true angel (probably your answer but you wont admit it)

You have no foundation -you are not on the rock of Christ –

You make THE Son of God into *A* Son of God like a creature alone nothing more than a mere man. Where is your foundation??? Built on something you cant even explain or do you really think Jesus is Michael the angel. Just cut to the chase and stop the games.

Gods **eternal** -power- and divine nature is revealed clearly by what is made. You cant have eternal *power* that is not expressed its common sense. Real simple stuff. God is unapproachable light, and hebrews 1:3 says that *THE* Son is the randiance of the Glory of God [unapprochable light].

The nature of the Father and Son is also revealed in Adam and Eve.

Yet the most explicit truth is that the true Son has the exact same nature as his true Father, light from light, REAL simple and irrefutable COMMON SENSE. Sad you cant see the simple truth.

Romans 1:19
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.

The Father Almighty says the heavens are the works of ***the** Sons hands, the Son is the creator as through all things are made. When it says through its not teaching he is a funnel but its actually created through his work his hands.

Colossians 1
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Mark 10:6
“But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

Life in the Son and in his name [the name above all others, he comes in his Father's name like ALWAYS ]

Daniel

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 18 2013,04:53)

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,15:31) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2013,13:11) Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,05:24) Please read what I have written carefully I only write it because I want you to be saved. With love Daniel daniel Quote If you want to answer any question please answer this so I can see what you think is truth. Is Jesus ***YOUR*** 1: true Saviour 2: true God 3: true Angel 4: true Lord If you cant answer that SIMPLE question you are on quicksand and are deceived so i a wait your reply. Build on the rock of Christ. first you did not answer my questions,WHY??? BUT THAT'S OK ; NOW ANSWER ME THIS ONLY QUESTION ; WHAT COULD OR CAN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN “SON OF THE FATHER ” DO FROM HIS OWN WILLFUL SELF Hi T, Same question could apply how can the Father be an Eternal Almighty Father of nothing without his Son. Its like having a Sun in the universe that doesn't radiant [beget] its glory to all the other planets.   I do not question that the Father eternally generates his perfect and true Son, light from light, true God from true God, expressed not made. Nothing was made that has been made without him. The Father is from whom all things are and the Son is through and FOR all things are made. That what scripture teaches. 1: The Son alone can reveal the Father. Luke 10:22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 2: The Son can make you *A* child of the Father. John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. 3: The Son alone can give you access to the Father 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? The Father LOVES those who LOVE the Son. John 16 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” If you Deny the Son you deny the Father. 1 John 2:23-24 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life. You need to be in the Son. John 5 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Jesus is the true Son of God, no other can compare to his Sonship – just like no other can compare to the Fathers, Fatherhood. Love and Life in *the* Son and in his name Daniel Then refute the scriptures T, You cant can you…. So you are the one using smoke screens, I come with scripture you come with NOT EVEN a knowledge of if Jesus is 1:your true God 2:your true Lord 3:your true angel (probably your answer but you wont admit it) You have no foundation -you are not on the rock of Christ – You make THE Son of God into *A* Son of God like a creature alone nothing more than a mere man. Where is your foundation??? Built on something you cant even explain or do you really think Jesus is Michael the angel. Just cut to the chase and stop the games. Gods **eternal** -power- and divine nature is revealed clearly by what is made. You cant have eternal *power* that is not expressed its common sense. Real simple stuff. God is unapproachable light, and hebrews 1:3 says that *THE* Son is the randiance of the Glory of God [unapprochable light]. The nature of the Father and Son is also revealed in Adam and Eve. Yet the most explicit truth is that the true Son has the exact same nature as his true Father, light from light, REAL simple and irrefutable COMMON SENSE. Sad you cant see the simple truth. Romans 1:19 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen. The Father Almighty says the heavens are the works of ***the** Sons hands, the Son is the creator as through all things are made. When it says through its not teaching he is a funnel but its actually created through his work his hands. Colossians 1 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Mark 10:6 “But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' Life in the Son and in his name [the name above all others, he comes in his Father's name like ALWAYS ] Daniel

Daniel

answer my question in bold ;only one question and make it honestly no bla,bla,

[mikeboll64]

Hi Daniel,

Long time, no talk.  

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 04 2013,17:08)

The Father is unbegotten……… The Son is begotten……….

Can you see the difference then?  Why would we never say the Father was begotten?  Because we all assert that the Father had no beginning.  What then, does it mean that the Son IS begotten?  I assume it means the exact same thing it means when ANYONE is “begotten”.  It means he was “brought forth into existence by another”.

YOU, for personal reasons, think that this basic understanding of “begotten”, which applies to everyone and everything else in existence, DOESN'T apply to Jesus.  I don't have those same personal reasons, and have never seen any scriptural reasons to think “begotten” means something else in the case of Jesus.

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 04 2013,17:08)

Just as Eve comes from the substance of Adam………. so also the begotton is the image of the unbegotten the source of unapprocable Light.

Agreed.  Jesus is definitely the “spitting image” OF his and our God, Jehovah. But if he is the spitting image OF God Almighty, then he cannot also BE God Almighty. Just like I can't be the spitting image of Brad Pitt, and also BE Brad Pitt himself. Get it?

Also, who came first?  Adam?  Or Eve?  Doesn't the one who “comes FROM the substance” of another come LATER in time than the one whose substance they came FROM?  YES.  So why would this be different in the case of Jesus?  I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to think it would be different.

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 18 2013,10:22)

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 18 2013,04:53) Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,15:31) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 17 2013,13:11) Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 17 2013,05:24) Please read what I have written carefully I only write it because I want you to be saved. With love Daniel daniel Quote If you want to answer any question please answer this so I can see what you think is truth. Is Jesus ***YOUR*** 1: true Saviour 2: true God 3: true Angel 4: true Lord If you cant answer that SIMPLE question you are on quicksand and are deceived so i a wait your reply. Build on the rock of Christ. first you did not answer my questions,WHY??? BUT THAT'S OK ; NOW ANSWER ME THIS ONLY QUESTION ; WHAT COULD OR CAN THE ONLY BEGOTTEN “SON OF THE FATHER ” DO FROM HIS OWN WILLFUL SELF Hi T, Same question could apply how can the Father be an Eternal Almighty Father of nothing without his Son. Its like having a Sun in the universe that doesn't radiant [beget] its glory to all the other planets.   I do not question that the Father eternally generates his perfect and true Son, light from light, true God from true God, expressed not made. Nothing was made that has been made without him. The Father is from whom all things are and the Son is through and FOR all things are made. That what scripture teaches. 1: The Son alone can reveal the Father. Luke 10:22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 2: The Son can make you *A* child of the Father. John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. 3: The Son alone can give you access to the Father 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? The Father LOVES those who LOVE the Son. John 16 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” If you Deny the Son you deny the Father. 1 John 2:23-24 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life. You need to be in the Son. John 5 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Jesus is the true Son of God, no other can compare to his Sonship – just like no other can compare to the Fathers, Fatherhood. Love and Life in *the* Son and in his name Daniel Then refute the scriptures T, You cant can you…. So you are the one using smoke screens, I come with scripture you come with NOT EVEN a knowledge of if Jesus is 1:your true God 2:your true Lord 3:your true angel (probably your answer but you wont admit it) You have no foundation -you are not on the rock of Christ – You make THE Son of God into *A* Son of God like a creature alone nothing more than a mere man. Where is your foundation??? Built on something you cant even explain or do you really think Jesus is Michael the angel. Just cut to the chase and stop the games. Gods **eternal** -power- and divine nature is revealed clearly by what is made. You cant have eternal *power* that is not expressed its common sense. Real simple stuff. God is unapproachable light, and hebrews 1:3 says that *THE* Son is the randiance of the Glory of God [unapprochable light]. The nature of the Father and Son is also revealed in Adam and Eve. Yet the most explicit truth is that the true Son has the exact same nature as his true Father, light from light, REAL simple and irrefutable COMMON SENSE. Sad you cant see the simple truth. Romans 1:19 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen. The Father Almighty says the heavens are the works of ***the** Sons hands, the Son is the creator as through all things are made. When it says through its not teaching he is a funnel but its actually created through his work his hands. Colossians 1 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Mark 10:6 “But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' Life in the Son and in his name [the name above all others, he comes in his Father's name like ALWAYS ] Daniel Daniel answer my question in bold ;only one question and make it honestly no bla,bla,

Hi T,
I have already given you the answer using scriptures. Like i have already said you need to refute these “scriptures”… If you don't agree with what i write ignore it and refute the scriptures i use.

also I understand that the Son is the true Son of God, he ce
rtainly isn't just *A* Son of God. He is the one and only Son.

Even the corrupted NWT Watchtower translation calls Jesus THE -ONLY- begotten God.

Here are the scriptures.

1:
The Son alone can reveal the Father, not the watchtower, Jews or the other daughters that deny *the* lord that brought them.

Luke 10:22
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

2:
The Son can make you *A* child of the Father.

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

3:
The Son alone can give you access to the Father.

John
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Father LOVES those who LOVE the Son. You teach we should JUST love him like a neighbor and not like his true Father.

John 16
27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

If you Deny the Son you deny the Father.

1 John 2:23-24
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

You need to be in the Son to have eternal life.

Who Judges us???

John 5
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Life in the Sons Name
Daniel

[terraricca]

daniel

I have to do nothing until you answer my question in a direct honest way ;can you do that

no scriptures needed per ups one ,

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 18 2013,10:44)

Hi Daniel, Long time, no talk.   Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 04 2013,17:08) The Father is unbegotten……… The Son is begotten………. Can you see the difference then?  Why would we never say the Father was begotten?  Because we all assert that the Father had no beginning.  What then, does it mean that the Son IS begotten?  I assume it means the exact same thing it means when ANYONE is “begotten”.  It means he was “brought forth into existence by another”. YOU, for personal reasons, think that this basic understanding of “begotten”, which applies to everyone and everything else in existence, DOESN'T apply to Jesus.  I don't have those same personal reasons, and have never seen any scriptural reasons to think “begotten” means something else in the case of Jesus. Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 04 2013,17:08) Just as Eve comes from the substance of Adam………. so also the begotton is the image of the unbegotten the source of unapprocable Light. Agreed.  Jesus is definitely the “spitting image” OF his and our God, Jehovah.  But if he is the spitting image OF God Almighty, then he cannot also BE God Almighty.  Just like I can't be the spitting image of Brad Pitt, and also BE Brad Pitt himself.  Get it? Also, who came first?  Adam?  Or Eve?  Doesn't the one who “comes FROM the substance” of another come LATER in time than the one whose substance they came FROM?  YES.  So why would this be different in the case of Jesus?  I see no scriptural reason whatsoever to think it would be different.

Hi Mike,

Yes long time no talk
Fair questions.

Agreed.  Jesus is definitely the “spitting image” OF his and our God, Jehovah.  But if he is the spitting image OF God Almighty, then he cannot also BE God Almighty.  Just like I can't be the spitting image of Brad Pitt, and also BE Brad Pitt himself.  Get it?

Yes ofcourse you cant be brad pit, but you are human by nature, this is the whole point.

The Father is eternal, hes eternally Almighty and his power is eternal.

Scripture reveals the Father as unapproachable “Light”.

Now scripture reveals that the Son is the Radiance of the Glory of God.

Jesus is the one and only ture Son of unapproachable light, would you agree?

See the Son isn't ANOTHER FATHER, he is the Son.

The Almighty eternal Power of the Fathers radiance cant be dissipated because its Almighty.

I don't think of God as a static person in the clouds but as unapproachable light. This light is FROM the Father then be concentrated into his Son.

To be honest I should use a better word that begotten because Jesus was begotten when he took flesh.

So forgive me for not being accurate, Jesus is eternally generated by the Fathers eternal expressive and active power.

God knew that Adam was incomplete when he made him, it was away to show that true Love needs to be expressed between people. God didn't make a mistake.

1×1=1

The expression of Love and relationship between the Father [ungenerated] and Son [generated] is the Testmony of the Holy Spirit. Who has the same spirit nature of the Father and Son. Scripture reveals this explicitly also.

Take care Mike.
Life in the name of Jesus.
Daniel

[terraricca]

daniel

you present me with those scriptures that says ;

1)”All things have been committed to me by my Father

2)JN 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

this is the answer of my question ,

and so you ONLY CAN GIVE A TOTAL REVERENCE WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND SOUL TO YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN BECAUSE HE IS THE SOURCE OF THE SON HIMSELF ,ALL WHAT THE SON DID ,HE DID IT FOR HIS FATHER ,

SO ALL YOUR BELIEVE IS GONE TO THE DRAIN,

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,16:19)

daniel you present me with those scriptures that says ; 1)”All things have been committed to me by my Father 2)JN 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. this is the answer of my question , and so you ONLY CAN GIVE A TOTAL REVERENCE WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND SOUL TO YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN BECAUSE HE IS THE SOURCE OF THE SON HIMSELF ,ALL WHAT THE SON DID ,HE DID IT FOR HIS FATHER , SO ALL YOUR BELIEVE IS GONE TO THE DRAIN,

Oh T,

Jesus humbled himself to take flesh.. Do you understand?
Jesus made his true Father his God by entering the created realm that he with the Father created.

T, do you have a Son?

I do and everything he owns comes from me, including his human life. I pay for my Sons, food, cloths, education, entertainment.

Like I said before everything the Son has -HAS- been given and derived from his eternal Father.

Jesus is the one and only True Son by nature. Satan isn't the nature of the Father this is why the Son is the one and only, he is the only begotten God to come to earth.

The Father is truly Father, I honestly believe its VERY insulting to say that there was a time when the Father wasn't a Father. OR that he is a Father of *NOTHING*.

The new testament the full revelation of scriptures teach that God is to be called Father, he is called Father so many times and not once called Jehovah in the new testament. Ofcourse the Father and Son are called Jehovah in the Old Testament and this name is Holy and Gods name. The difference is Jehovah has now SAVED his people and when we are saved we are children of God so we call God, abba Father. Just like the True Son who became a CREATED SON of man teaches us as the one mediator. the MAN Jesus in his humbled state to SAVE us from our sins by his blood, yet his spirit hands created the heavens and his spirit nature is Almighty.

NOW if the Father is a true Father, this means that the Son comes FROM and OF the Father's Nature/Substance ALONE.

Or do you think there was a time between the Father decided to create his VERY OWN substance and craft his Son from that?

See Jesus as “*the* Word” is Without *Mother*.

See the Father isn't like a man with generating his Son from the substance of his sperm/siemen/DNA/Genome

Instead the Father is Eternally *MATURE*, Eternally *Father*.

Just my thoughts, just my way to understand.
I visualize the Fathers nature as being radiated OUTWARDS, where as I visualize the Sons nature being radiated INWARDS.

See the Sons hands created the Heavens and I'm assumming the Heavens GLORY is much more powerful than the MASSIVE stars in the universe. Who is more powerful the largest star in the universe or the one and only Son, the Word. We should agree on this surely?

So I think the only reason why we can see Jehovah the Son is because of the characteristic of him being “the Son” and not another Father.
I truly think that ONLY, the “one and only Son” can stand in the Full Presence and full glory of the Father because he is OF and FROM the Father substance.

Ofcourse scripture explicitly teaches that the Son is the exact substance/image of the Father but there is a huge difference because the Son is not ANOTHER FATHER but instead the expressed substance [THE expressed Word]. the one and only True Son by nature.

I see this as the relationship of Adam and Eve, but the Son is not a Women hes just not another Father.

I think how Adam would see the glory of his nature in Eve [yet Eve is not another male] I think in the exact same way the Father see the glory of his nature in the Son [yet the Son is not another Father]

We also need to try and understand that the Holy Spirit is also the same nature as the Father and Son.
I truly believe he is the *expression* of the love and relationship of the ungenerated Father and the generated Son. Just like the expression of Adam and Eve in the one flesh/nature – the child [who shares the substance of both] proceeds.

This is the best explaination in this short time I have now, but one thing is true Jesus is indeed the one and only true Son of God, FROM and OF the Fathers substance. Its impossible to see this substance as being created from nothing. I honestly think this is common sense when you understand the Son as the one and only true Son and it agrees with scripture that without *THE* Son nothing was made that has been made. If the Holy spirit wanted to add extra words like all other things he would have but he didn't because the Son is truely from the Fathers substance.

John  1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Take care. Honestly not trying to get you to come to my Church or personal beliefs just want to know that you are saved and belong to the Son who alone provides access to the Father. [there is honestly no other way to the Father without the Son]

Life in the name of the Son
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi T,
I agree all the Son does is for the Father, BUT all the Father does is for the Son also.
Its clear that scripture teaches that all things are created through him and ***FOR*** him.

The Church [Gods people is for the Son] the Son is for the Father. Just like Eve is for Adam. Do you understand?

oh just wanted to say I probably wont be on hear for a while, as i'm on holidays for a couple of weeks. Enjoy your break of work, get plenty of rest and recharge the batteries for a new year. Take care.

Life in the name of the Son
Daniel

[terraricca]

Daniel

Quote

The Father is truly Father, I honestly believe its VERY insulting to say that there was a time when the Father wasn't a Father. OR that he is a Father of *NOTHING*.

your feelings are not making an impact in the works of God's creation .

Quote

Take care. Honestly not trying to get you to come to my Church or personal beliefs just want to know that you are saved and belong to the Son who alone provides access to the Father. [there is honestly no other way to the Father without the Son]

I do belong to the father through the faith in the son and through his disciples message .

Quote

Hi T, I agree all the Son does is for the Father, BUT all the Father does is for the Son also. Its clear that scripture teaches that all things are created through him and ***FOR*** him.

scriptures also says that the father his Jesus Christ the son'S, GOD. THIS WOULD MEAN JUST AS SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT AT ONE TIME THE FATHER WAS NOT A FATHER BUT ALWAYS WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH , AND THAT HE NEVER CHANGED ,AND AT THE END OF IT ALL WHEN THE SON SUBMIT HIMSELF ALL WILL RETURN THAT THEIR WILL BE ONLY ONE GOD FOR ALL AND NO MORE FATHER ;BECAUSE THE FATHER FIGURE WOULD HAVE BEEN FINISH AND ACCOMPLISHED ,FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS DELIVERED ,THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS ;

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 18 2013,21:49)

Jesus is eternally generated by the Fathers eternal expressive and active power.

I can't read that in any scripture, Daniel. So how do YOU know such a thing?

The fact is that you DON'T know it, but claim it anyway.

Also, your post didn't come close to addressing any of the three GOOD points I made.

I know you are a good guy, and love God with all your heart. But I hope you are beginning to see that the things you preach are not taught in the scriptures; and go against our God-given common sense.

You won't ever “prove” to me that Jesus is God by posting a bunch of flowery “wishes” you have. For example, you can't just wish Jesus is “eternally begotten”, claim it, and then expect me to just believe it. It doesn't work that way.

Now, I've asked you WHY the Father isn't ever said to be “begotten”. And I've asked you to contrast Him to His firstborn Son, who IS said to have been begotten.

What does “begotten” ALWAYS imply? Am I WRONG to claim that the word “begotten” ALWAYS implies one was brought forth into existence by another?

Also, you mentioned that Eve came from the substance of Adam. WHICH OF THEM EXISTED FIRST, Daniel?

Did the one who came from the substance exist as long as the one whose substance she came from? Did ANYONE, in the history of the world, who came FROM another person's substance, exist from the same point in time as the person from whose substance they came?

I also agreed with you that Jesus is said to be “the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being”. And I pointed out that in order for that to be true, Jesus can't actually BE God.

Your answer was to distinguish Jesus from “God the Father”. But Hebrews 1:3 doesn't say “God the Father“, Daniel. It only says “God”.

So my point stands. If Jesus is very much like “God”, then Jesus can't very well BE “God”.

At some point, you're going to have to stop relying on long, explanatory speeches that tell us why YOU believe Jesus is God………. and start addressing some of these points we're making that CLEARLY and SCRIPTURALLY show that the servant OF “God” is somebody OTHER THAN “God”.

I do admire your faith, and the way you “carry yourself”. I just wish you'd come to the truth of the matter, that our ONE and ONLY “God” is the same ONE and ONLY “God” that our Lord Jesus also has. Jesus and I worship the same ONE and ONLY “God”, Daniel. You worship that same God, but then try to add the servant to the Master – and worship him as well.

That's terribly bad business. And I pray you realize this mistake before it's too late.

[Wakeup]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 20 2013,11:07)

Daniel Quote The Father is truly Father, I honestly believe its VERY insulting to say that there was a time when the Father wasn't a Father. OR that he is a Father of *NOTHING*. your feelings are not making an impact in the works of God's creation . Quote Take care. Honestly not trying to get you to come to my Church or personal beliefs just want to know that you are saved and belong to the Son who alone provides access to the Father. [there is honestly no other way to the Father without the Son] I do belong to the father through the faith in the son and through his disciples message . Quote Hi T, I agree all the Son does is for the Father, BUT all the Father does is for the Son also. Its clear that scripture teaches that all things are created through him and ***FOR*** him. scriptures also says that the father his Jesus Christ the son'S, GOD. THIS WOULD MEAN JUST AS SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT AT ONE TIME THE FATHER WAS NOT A FATHER BUT ALWAYS WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH , AND THAT HE NEVER CHANGED ,AND AT THE END OF IT ALL WHEN THE SON SUBMIT HIMSELF ALL WILL RETURN THAT THEIR WILL BE ONLY ONE GOD FOR ALL AND NO MORE FATHER ;BECAUSE THE FATHER FIGURE WOULD HAVE BEEN FINISH AND ACCOMPLISHED ,FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS DELIVERED ,THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS ;

T.

I agree what you are trying to say here.

1.Before all creation has begun, there was only God.
2. And his Word *is still in his mind*,for he has not spoken.
John said: and the Word *was* God,because his Word was
still in his mind.Here John was speaking of the past,before
creation started.
3.Untill God spoke; His word came out.
John said: and the word was with God.
4.God gave his Word a form like him;in the form of his
image.
5.Then creation started.
6. Then the Word was made flesh,and became the son of God
in the flesh. Now he is back as the Word of God,and God
is also his God,because he always obey God from whence
He came. He can never act on his own;unless given power
by God to do so. And God has given him all power to rule
in His own kingdom coming,with his saints.

wakeup.

[terraricca]

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 23 2013,03:45)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 20 2013,11:07) Daniel Quote The Father is truly Father, I honestly believe its VERY insulting to say that there was a time when the Father wasn't a Father. OR that he is a Father of *NOTHING*. your feelings are not making an impact in the works of God's creation . Quote Take care. Honestly not trying to get you to come to my Church or personal beliefs just want to know that you are saved and belong to the Son who alone provides access to the Father. [there is honestly no other way to the Father without the Son] I do belong to the father through the faith in the son and through his disciples message . Quote Hi T, I agree all the Son does is for the Father, BUT all the Father does is for the Son also. Its clear that scripture teaches that all things are created through him and ***FOR*** him. scriptures also says that the father his Jesus Christ the son'S, GOD. THIS WOULD MEAN JUST AS SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT AT ONE TIME THE FATHER WAS NOT A FATHER BUT ALWAYS WAS THE ALMIGHTY GOD JEHOVAH , AND THAT HE NEVER CHANGED ,AND AT THE END OF IT ALL WHEN THE SON SUBMIT HIMSELF ALL WILL RETURN THAT THEIR WILL BE ONLY ONE GOD FOR ALL AND NO MORE FATHER ;BECAUSE THE FATHER FIGURE WOULD HAVE BEEN FINISH AND ACCOMPLISHED ,FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS DELIVERED ,THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS ; T. I agree what you are trying to say here. 1.Before all creation has begun, there was only God. 2. And his Word *is still in his mind*,for he has not spoken.    John said: and the Word *was* God,because his Word was    still in his mind.Here John was speaking of the past,before    creation started. 3.Untill God spoke; His word came out.   John said: and the word was with God. 4.God gave his Word a form like him;in the form of his   image. 5.Then creation started. 6. Then the Word was made flesh,and became the son of God    in the flesh. Now he is back as the Word of God,and God    is also his God,because he always obey God from whence    He came. He can never act on his own;unless given power    by God to do so. And God has given him all power to rule    in His own kingdom coming,with his saints. wakeup.

WAKEUP

you have understand nothing of what i said ,you just want to spill out your man made doctrines that are not supported by scriptures ;

sinse when words become flesh

sinse when a plan become flesh

this is a discussion you have taken in almost every topic by desperation ;but you only spreading deceit ,

you have no scriptures for ;only your item 1) and all the other ithems are false because they are based on your number 2) idea

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,11:20)

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 18 2013,21:49) Jesus is eternally generated by the Fathers eternal expressive and active power. I can't read that in any scripture, Daniel.  So how do YOU know such a thing? The fact is that you DON'T know it, but claim it anyway. Also, your post didn't come close to addressing any of the three GOOD points I made. I know you are a good guy, and love God with all your heart.  But I hope you are beginning to see that the things you preach are not taught in the scriptures; and go against our God-given common sense. You won't ever “prove” to me that Jesus is God by posting a bunch of flowery “wishes” you have.  For example, you can't just wish Jesus is “eternally begotten”, claim it, and then expect me to just believe it.  It doesn't work that way. Now, I've asked you WHY the Father isn't ever said to be “begotten”.  And I've asked you to contrast Him to His firstborn Son, who IS said to have been begotten. What does “begotten” ALWAYS imply?  Am I WRONG to claim that the word “begotten” ALWAYS implies one was brought forth into existence by another?   Also, you mentioned that Eve came from the substance of Adam.  WHICH OF THEM EXISTED FIRST, Daniel?   Did the one who came from the substance exist as long as the one whose substance she came from?  Did ANYONE, in the history of the world, who came FROM another person's substance, exist from the same point in time as the person from whose substance they came?   I also agreed with you that Jesus is said to be “the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being”.  And I pointed out that in order for that to be true, Jesus can't actually BE God. Your answer was to distinguish Jesus from “God the Father”.  But Hebrews 1:3 doesn't say “God the Father“, Daniel.  It only says “God”. So my point stands.  If Jesus is very much like “God”, then Jesus can't very well BE “God”. At some point, you're going to have to stop relying on long, explanatory speeches that tell us why YOU believe Jesus is God………. and start addressing some of these points we're making that CLEARLY and SCRIPTURALLY show that the servant OF “God” is somebody OTHER THAN “God”. I do admire your faith, and the way you “carry yourself”.  I just wish you'd come to the truth of the matter, that our ONE and ONLY “God” is the same ONE and ONLY “God” that our Lord Jesus also has.  Jesus and I worship the same ONE and ONLY “God”, Daniel.  You worship that same God, but then try to add the servant to the Master – and worship him as well. That's terribly bad business.  And I pray you realize this mistake before it's too late.

Thanks Mike,

Jesus is God by nature, he is not the source but the radiance of the source. You have agreed with this which makes me think you are close.

Just because there are times when scripture calls The Father “God” without explicitly teaching that they are referring to the Father doesn't mean anything.
point and fact, there are times when the Son is also called God without being called God the Son. BUT the best example is that the Son and Father both ***THE**** Lord.

See Jesus is clearly called ***THE**** Lord and THE Son. Jesus isn;t a chief Lord he is the LORD OF LORDS, not just *A* Lord or *a* Son.

But the Father is ALSO ***THE**** Lord.

See *THE* Lord means Jehovah / Yahweh.

Now God has revealed himself in the *new* Testament as *THE* Father, What does this mean to you??

Please answer if you believe the Father wasn't ALWAYS Father?

I believe God is *LOVE* and *LIGHT* this is what scripture teaches.
I ALSO choose to believe that God didn't decide one day BEFORE time itself was created I will have a Son.

Mike what do you understand time? Do you know that time itself was created?
As you believe the Father wasn't ALWAYS Father [you are a braver man than I]

What did the Father create first Time or the Son?? Is he the Father of time or the Father of **THE** Son, who is indeed the first and the last, who is **explicitly** called and revealed as Jehovah.

I'm really interested in your answer.

Mike, I have no bias, like I said I actually wanted to hook up with a Jehovah Witnesses who I was very keen on and wanted to look her up, when I was around the age of 18 so I looked into the Jehovah Witness region and had a person coming around to my place.
Jesus is THE Lord he is not a Arch Angel, the lady got aggressive after a few visits when I wouldn't deny that Jesus was THE Lord.

You seem to believe something else its not Jehovah Witness or Morman but you appear to be a out on your own with t.
T8 I think is close as he appears to accept all the explicit scriptures that prove that Jesus, *THE* Son is to be *Worshiped* and not just honored.

Forgive me for being direct, if you don't believe the one and only true Son isn't OF and FROM the exact same nature as his true Father [that being Lord and God] how can you profess to know more than the Jehovah Witnesses is it because the whole Michael the angel thing is crushed beyond compare when compared to the revelations that Jesus is God by nature.

I honestly think you are to nice and to smart to not know where I am coming from.

See What the whole point for Jesus being ***THE*** Son of God if he is just like us or the angels???
No angel eve has any involvement in any form of creation at all — not even creating a tree, we all know the father didn't come to earth at the foundation of its creation to build trees and create flowers and mountains. It was his one and only Son.

So here is the proof that Jesus ALWAYS EXISTED.

Nothing was made ***THAT*** HAS BEEN MADE.
Note this is explicit proof that cant be debated against, its the word of God.

Jesus is the expressed and generated WORD of the Father.

Because the Son isn't created that why John and scripture even in the Old Testament reveals that it is through and by the Word that the heavens were created. Because the Word is the eternal generation of the Fathers Glory.

John 1:3
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 
**NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE**    

You agree that Jesus is the radiance of God as explicitly stated in Hebrews.

Now do you really think that God was without this Generated radiance?

It denies the Father of being eternal Light, Love and Father, all the revelations in scripture.

then you have the MASSIVE Problems that the Holy Spirit shares the exact same spirit Substance of the Father and Son.

I would be VERY happy to look into this because it cant be refuted, I was even amazed to hear a youtube clip that T8 posted reveal that the Holy Spirit shares the Father and Son spirit, what amazed me was it said that people who believe in the trinity confuse that Jesus is the Son.

Well you cant have a true Son who isn't the same nature as his true Father and we know satan/ lucifier doesn't have the same nature as ***THE** Father, why because he is a created Son FROM Nothing. Jesus wasn&#
39;t created from NOTHING he is OF and FROM the Father.

Where do you want to go from hear, I key thing is that you Worship Jesus [note even the Watch tower taught this for around 80 years] that's more than one full generation.

Mike, I say these thing because I love you and like I said before Saul who became Paul was a Hebrews of Hebrews and he became the probably the greatest disciple to win people to God.
God Jehovah is truly, THE Lord, The Father [ungenerated], THE Son [generated] and Holy Spirit [the expression of Love and Unity between the ungenearated and generated].

Mike if we are getting no where should we just end this debate? Let me know what you think, we could just pray for each other. I don't honestly find any of your questions or ts challenging, I don't say this to be smart but to just let you know what i'm thinking. I honestly cant even see a solid foundation for what is being taught. You need to teach that Jesus is either an arch angel or God the Son.

Sorry for being direct but I don't mind if you are back in a polite way, take care.

Life in the Son, the Lord and his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

daniel

no one is created from nothing ;out of nothing comes nothing ;

the son comes out of the father and all other creation has been THROUGH the son

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,12:13)

daniel no one is created from nothing ;out of nothing comes nothing ; the son comes out of the father and all other creation has been THROUGH  the son

Hi t,
So you think the Son is like a funnel,
Matter was created out of nothing.

Before the incarnation of the Word, the Word was pure Spirit.

Are you saying that the mountains and the seas, swamps and the desserts and trees were created out of an angel?

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

The above is a clear ref to the lord God

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Romans 9:5
New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

t, do you recognize him, IF SO WHAT is he?

Would you agree that only the Father [from] — the Son/Word [through/by] and the Holy Spirit/ Breath [in] that all thing are created

Life in the name of Jesus, THE Lord
Daniel

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 30 2013,09:44)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,12:13) daniel no one is created from nothing ;out of nothing comes nothing ; the son comes out of the father and all other creation has been THROUGH  the son Hi t, So you think the Son is like a funnel, Matter was created out of nothing. Before the incarnation of the Word, the Word was pure Spirit. Are you saying that the mountains and the seas, swamps and the desserts and trees were created out of an angel? Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. The above is a clear ref to the lord God 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Romans 9:5 New International Version Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. t, do you recognize him, IF SO WHAT is he? Would you agree that only the Father [from] — the Son/Word [through/by] and the Holy Spirit/ Breath [in] that all thing are created Life in the name of Jesus, THE Lord Daniel

daniel

Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Ro 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Ro 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

what we see is what we have in our hearts

COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
COL 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him.
1TI 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

pay attention to the next scripture;

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was NOT made out of what was visible.

is that what you understand Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,15:14)

Quote (4Thomas @ Dec. 30 2013,09:44) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 30 2013,12:13) daniel no one is created from nothing ;out of nothing comes nothing ; the son comes out of the father and all other creation has been THROUGH  the son Hi t, So you think the Son is like a funnel, Matter was created out of nothing. Before the incarnation of the Word, the Word was pure Spirit. Are you saying that the mountains and the seas, swamps and the desserts and trees were created out of an angel? Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. The above is a clear ref to the lord God 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Romans 9:5 New International Version Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. John 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. t, do you recognize him, IF SO WHAT is he? Would you agree that only the Father [from] — the Son/Word [through/by] and the Holy Spirit/ Breath [in] that all thing are created Life in the name of Jesus, THE Lord Daniel daniel Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Ro 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Ro 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools what we see is what we have in our hearts COL 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. COL 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 1TI 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. pay attention to the next scripture; Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was NOT made out of what was visible. is that what you understand Daniel

Thanks T,
Just checked this, sorry for the delay.
My understanding is that nothing was made out of anything visable. This is what the scripture states.

Your scripture you quoted.

Ro 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

I couldn't agree more, the Father does indeed have eternal power and he does indeed have an eternal nature and his radiance is how his Son derives his eternal being. The Father Jehovah eternally generates his Almighty radiance which is seen in his Son, *the* Son is alone generated FROM and OF the Father eternal power and nature. Satan who was an arch angel is not OF and FROM the father, he is not *THE* only begotten God [John 1:18]

And the Romans the same book declares what nature *the* Son has, he is God over all. Because no one can access the Father Jehovah they can only see the Son Jehovah and only have access to him as did Moses and Abraham and other (patriarchs)

Romans 9:5
New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

The Son became flesh to yet provide an even better access to the Father through him, who is the first and the last, the Son, the Lord, my God. He is not a false God and he is not a god i cant belong to, I belong to him and he is my God, he is the radiance, light from light, true God from true God, generated and not made from one substance of and from the Father Jehovah.

All I want is for no-one to deny *the* Son, especially people who love the Father.

Love and life in the Son and his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

DANIEL

Quote

Romans 9:5 New International Version Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

DID YOU READ THE FOOT NOTES ON THAT VERSE

NET ©
To them belong the patriarchs, 1 and from them, 2 by human descent, 3 came the Christ, 4 who is God over all, blessed forever! 5 Amen.
NIV ©
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, for ever praised! Amen.
NASB ©
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
NLT ©
Their ancestors were great people of God, and Christ himself was a Jew as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
MSG ©
to say nothing of being the race that produced the Messiah, the Christ, who is God over everything, always. Oh, yes!
BBE ©
Whose are the fathers, and of whom came Christ in the flesh, who is over all, God, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it.
NRSV ©
to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
NKJV ©
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came , who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
KJV
Whose
[are] the fathers
_, and
of
whom
as concerning
the flesh
Christ
[came], who
(5752) is over
all
_, God
blessed
for
ever
_. Amen
_.
NASB ©
whose
are the fathers
, and from whom
is the Christ
according
to the flesh
, who is over
all
, God
blessed
forever
. Amen
.
GREEK
wn

R-GPMoi

T-NPMpaterev

N-NPMkai

CONJex

PREPwn

R-GPMo

T-NSMcristov

N-NSMto

T-NSNkata

PREPsarka

N-ASFo

T-NSMwn
(5752)
V-PXP-NSMepi

PREPpantwn

A-GPNyeov

N-NSMeuloghtov

A-NSMeiv

PREPtouv

T-APMaiwnav

N-APMamhn

HEB
NET © [draft] ITL
To them belong the patriarchs
, and
from
them
, by
human
descent, came the Christ
, who is
God
over
all
, blessed
forever
! Amen
.
NET ©
To them belong the patriarchs, 1 and from them, 2 by human descent, 3 came the Christ, 4 who is God over all, blessed forever! 5 Amen.
NET © Notes
1 tn Grk “of whom are the fathers.” Because of the length and complexity of the Greek sentence, a new sentence was started here in the translation.
2 tn Grk “from whom.” Here the relative pronoun has been replaced by a personal pronoun.
3 tn Grk “according to the flesh.”
4 tn Or “Messiah.” (Both Greek “Christ” and Hebrew and Aramaic “Messiah” mean “one who has been anointed.”)
5 tn Or “the Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever,” or “the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever!” or “the Messiah who is over all. God be blessed forever!” The translational difficulty here is not text-critical in nature, but is a problem of punctuation. Since the genre of these opening verses of Romans 9 is a lament, it is probably best to take this as an affirmation of Christ’s deity (as the text renders it). Although the other renderings are possible, to see a note of praise to God at the end of this section seems strangely out of place. But for Paul to bring his lament to a crescendo (that is to say, his kinsmen had rejected God come in the flesh), thereby deepening his anguish, is wholly appropriate. This is also supported grammatically and stylistically: The phrase ὁ ὢν (Jo wn, “the one who is”) is most naturally taken as a phrase which modifies something in the preceding context, and Paul’s doxologies are always closely tied to the preceding context. For a detailed examination of this verse, see B. M. Metzger, “The Punctuation of Rom. 9:5,” Christ and the Spirit in the New Testament, 95-112; and M. J. Harris, Jesus as God, 144-72.

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