Who is this Jesus?

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2013,20:26)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,17:51)

Funny you should mention Peter, who Jesus himself named “rock”. Perhaps Peter, himself a “rock”, is also a part of the Godhead unity, and that's why he was able to explain so much to us. You already have Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son……….. perhaps Peter can be Jehovah the Cousin?

Peter isn't Jehovah, Jesus is.

Why? Because YOU say so? What if I insist that Peter is “Jehovah the Cousin” – with nothing but twistings of scripture to support my claim?

After all, the Church of God is built on PETER, right? That makes Peter the FOUNDATION of the entire Church of God, right? (Matthew 16:18)

Also, it was Peter alone who was commissioned with the responsibility of feeding Jesus' lambs, and taking care of Jesus' sheep, right? (John 21:15-17)

Surely these things are enough to make Peter at least a “cousin” in the Jehovah family, right?

Or should I find some more scriptures about Peter that I can twist the meaning of?

October 23, 2013 at 11:59 pm#360035

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,12:32)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 22 2013,18:23)

Mike but if the Watch Tower taught for around 80 years that Jesus SHOULD *BE* Worshipped, and then NO-ONE can show me a single example before 1950 in any of there documentation that they taught Jesus should NOT be worshipped.

1 Chronicles 29:20 King James Version
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.

Did these people “worship” King David as if they thought he was God Almighty Himself? Of course not.

So while I don't know the history of the JW's organization, I suspect that the word “worship” in their older writings had a meaning closer to the meaning of the KJV's use of “worship the king” in the above verse.

As time goes on, the meanings of certain words change. And perhaps, starting about the 1950's, the commonly accepted meaning of “worship” changed to more of a God only thing, and so the JW's stopped using the word “worship” in reference to Jesus.

At any rate, you and I both know that King David was never “worshiped” as if he was Jehovah. Yet there are the words, in black and white in the KJV Bible, right? So what do we do with that, knowing that both the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” also mean “pay homage”, “do obeisance”, “honor”, etc? Do we assume that the Israelites WORSHIPPED King David as if he was God? Or do we assume the more sensible explanation that they “honored” King David, or “paid homage” to him?

Of course, you'll agree it is the latter, right? So what of the verses that say Jesus was worshipped? You will understand them to mean his disciples, for some strange reason, thought he was the very God he prayed to, and therefore worshipped him as God Almighty. I will assume the more sensible understanding that they were “honoring” and “paying homage” to him.

Daniel, you didn't answer the last question from my previous post. Please do so. I would like an honest answer:

If Jehovah DID for some reason decide to generate a being who IS higher than Jesus……….. would that new being be lower than the God who generated him? YES or NO?

Hi Mike,
I have read the jw material and I can show you from their own written word that they declared Jesus to be Worshipped explicitly, WHY because they reveal he is the *express image* of the Father and that the Father himself commanded their angels to Worship him, even after “the Word [God]” was made flesh, now that's something.

Now PLEASE show me just one single example that the watchtower or leaders of the jws actually taught there was a language difference prior to 1950…. Please show me BECAUSE IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW, where are their case studies for the change in language and when in the 1950 did they ACTUALLY say the language had been CHANGED… Just one example PLEASE!
Surely you can see if sounds like the perfect thing to say if you actually taught Jesus should be worshipped like they *really* taught.
I can show you plenty or examples from there own material.

To answer your question, Jehovah can't generate anything higher than his express substance of his Almighty eternal power. Light from light true God from true God, “the Word” the one and only begotton [expressed image of the fathers Glory, the Lord of glory]
So its impossible, for Jehovah to generate anything higher than Jehovah the Almighty as he the Lord of Glory is *already* eternally generated Almightly.
Thats why Jehovah “the Word” was seen face to face my Moses and that why the leading prophets could say I have seen Jehovah Almighty.
You cant get any higher than Jehovah the Almighty.

Questions to be asked regarding the Father, this will help you to understand the simple logic that I believe.

Is the Father eternally ALL powerful?

Is the Father eternally Father?

How did the Father beget his Son without an eternal Women?

Is the Father a true Father, by begetting his nature from his nature/being?

Does the Father display his eternal Almighty Power and How?

Did the Father wait until he created time to beget his Son?

What is the greatest Revelation and testimony of the Fathers Glory?

What is the most pleasing and acceptable thing to the Father?

If the Father is unapproachable Light, how is he Father?

Does the Father express his Glory? If so – what is his express image?

Its not michael the arch angel, its Jehovah “the Word” the expression.

LOVE and Life in the NAME of Jesus – no codemnation but instead life.
Daniel

October 24, 2013 at 12:13 am#360037

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2013,11:36)

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

Hi t,
No Thomas wasn't a loser, no one who is beaten and killed usually raises up to life again, Thomas knew what it meant for someone to raise from the dead after dieing…
Scriptures goes into more detail about this “first and last” who was once dead and now alive” he is the Alpha and the Omega and he will come again on the clouds.
Please accept him as God the Son who is FROM and OF the Father.
true God from true God, begotten [expressed] not made.

Life in the NAME of Jesus -NO Condemnation in his name or in him. take care t.
Daniel

October 24, 2013 at 12:25 am#360042

Participant

Hi Mike,
Its CLEAR the Watch tower taught Jesus should be Worshipped and there is NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SAY OTHERWISE. This is because its the truth and its hard to argue with the truth even if you believe its ok to bend it.

Rutherford teaches he is the EXPRESS image and for this reason he should be Worshipped

Watchtower 1939 November 15 p.339. “Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah’s purpose (Heb.:3–6).”

Zion’s Watch Tower 1880 October p.3 “It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. “When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.” Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter–the leading apostle– “he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man.” …. Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship….”

Zion’s Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157 “It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us….Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him. — Matt. 28: 9, 17.”

Zion’s Watch Tower 1898 July 15 p.216 “Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. … It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man”

Zion’s Watch Tower 1906 January 1 p.15 “In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles….They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience”

Rutherford continued this teaching.

Watchtower 1939 November 15 p.339. “Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah’s purpose (Heb.:3–6).”

Vindication Volume 3 p.295 “During the Millennium, “the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ.”

***Heres how they teach to obtain Salvation*****

Salvation p.151 “The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11).”

Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940’s Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

Watchtower 1945 October 15 p.313 “Now, at Christ’s coming to reign as king in Jehovah’s capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. … Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah’s Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy.”

In 1945 Knorr amended the Watchtower Charter. Included within the new Charter is the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus. This charter is a legal document that continues to be the Watchtower Charter to this day. The 1945 Yearbook includes the Charter in full for anyone that would like to read it in the Society’s own publications.

Love and Life in the NAME of Jesus. Please accept him as YOUR Lord and savior, PLEASE!!!
Daniel

October 24, 2013 at 12:39 am#360043

Blocked

Daniel,

I couldn't care less about whether or not the JWs used to say “worship” in reference to Jesus. What I KNOW is that 1 Chronicles 29:20 said “worship the king” in the old KJV.

But the NEW KJV says, “bowed their heads and prostrated themselves before the LORD and the king”.

And the vast majority of current English translations say something akin to what the NEW KJV says. That tells me that way back then, when the old KJV used the word “worshiped” in that verse, perhaps the word “worshiped” had a broader meaning, and both men and God could be “worshiped”. (Kind of like “god”, in Biblical times, meant “mighty one”, but nowadays the word “god” usually refers ONLY to the god who created all things. As if the current meaning of “god” is “He who created all things”. But that WASN'T the meaning when the scriptures were written, or else “God of gods” would mean “Creator of all things of the creators of all things”. )

Daniel, the FACT of the matter is that both the Hebrew and Greek words can be translated either way. So because the Trinitarian translators DON'T want people to think King David was “worshiped”, they mostly use “prostrated themselves before”. But when it comes to Jesus, these same Trinitarian translators DO want people to think he was “worshiped”, and so translate with “worship”, instead of “prostrated themselves before”.

In other words, they COULD translate the word as “paid homage” when it refers to Jesus. But they CHOOSE to translate as “worshiped” when it refers to Jesus. And this PERSONAL CHOICE of the Trinitarian translators doesn't really mean anyone ever “worshiped” Jesus at all. But because they WANT people like you to think Jesus WAS worshiped as if he was God, they translate it the way they do.

Daniel, consider just one of those scriptures:

John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

Now, think this out. These same Pharisees had been tirelessly searching for any reason at all to have Jesus put to death. Plus, they were so mad at this formerly blind man that they had just kicked him out of the synagogue.

So, would you have us believe that this man, after just finding out Jesus was the SON OF MAN (not God), offered WORSHIP to him? And would you have us believe that he WORSHIPED Jesus right in front of a group of Pharisees, and they did NOTHING about it?

Man, they would have had both of them stoned to death before sundown if that really happened – and you know it.

On the other hand, it WAS an accepted custom in those days for one man to bow before another man to pay him homage. And since the Pharisees thought nothing of that man bowing before Jesus, it should be apparent that the man wasn't actually WORSHIPPING Jesus as if he was God Almighty. Instead, the man was offering HONOR to Jesus as the Son of Man – not WORSHIP to him as God Almighty.

Daniel, do you agree that this formerly blind man didn't actually WORSHIP Jesus?

So just remember that anytime you read “worshiped Jesus” in a Trinitarian translation, it doesn't mean the Greek text actually said “worshiped Jesus”. It just means that the Trinitarian translators WANT you to believe Jesus was worshiped. In cases like these, consult with the NWT. They have the Greek word “proskuneo” translated correctly as “did obeisance to Jesus”.

But what does any of this have to do with the JWs anyway? Are you claiming that the fact the JWs used to say “worship”, but now say “did obeisance”, proves Jesus is God?

Daniel, just use SCRIPTURE from now on. I have no interest in discussing the JW Organization, or what former members did or didn't do.

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 23 2013,17:59)

So its impossible, for Jehovah to generate anything higher than Jehovah the Almighty as he the Lord of Glory is *already* eternally generated Almightly.

That's not exactly what I asked, Daniel. I'm not asking if a being generated by Jehovah would be HIGHER THAN He who generated him. I'm asking if Jehovah would generate a being who was ABSOLUTELY EQUAL to Himself.

Because for me, it stands to reason that any beings Jehovah generates (angels, humans, dogs, cats, etc) will be LESSER THAN the Being who generated them in the first place. Do you agree that this is the LOGICAL assumption? Can the un-generated and MOST HIGH Being in existence generate a different being who is EQUAL to Him? Can a GENERATED being be equal to an un-generated being? Can there be two MOST HIGHs?

What I want you to see here (and perhaps even ACKNOWLEDGE) is that if Jehovah “generated” Jesus at all, it stands to reason that the “generated” being will be LESSER THAN the UN-GENERATED and MOST HIGH being who generated him in the first place.

October 24, 2013 at 1:17 am#360051

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,06:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2013,11:36)

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

Life in the NAME of Jesus -NO Condemnation in his name or in him. take care t.
Daniel

daniel

it seems to me that you try hard to convince me of what you believe ,but what I can see in your quotes ,most is not in scriptures and many of what is in scriptures as been modified with opinions,men interpretation,and personal comments,

and so there is no way that I can accept this teaching of men ,and also a deceitful way presentation ,I am glad that I have the knowledge in scriptures that I have so that I can see the errors and mis representation of Gods plan,and righteousness .

God almighty his the God and father of his son Jesus Christ that served him in all righteousness and truth until death,all this to save us,bless God almighty Jehovah,and his servant Jesus Christ ,his faithful son.

October 24, 2013 at 5:28 am#360065

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,12:17)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,06:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2013,11:36)

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

Life in the NAME of Jesus -NO Condemnation in his name or in him. take care t.
Daniel

daniel

Hi t,

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

The Son is God, Yes
Is the Son God please answer yes/no
If no, what is the Son PLEASE SHOW ME your arch angel stuff or at least admit that Jesus is true God. Remeber the Word was with the father God and the Word was God [the Son]

Lets see ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES to SHWO Jesus was an Arch angel or just admit he was God before he took flesh.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

October 24, 2013 at 5:14 pm#360079

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,11:28)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,12:17)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,06:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2013,11:36)

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

Life in the NAME of Jesus -NO Condemnation in his name or in him. take care t.
Daniel

daniel

Hi t,

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

Lets see ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES to SHWO Jesus was an Arch angel or just admit he was God before he took flesh.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

Daniel

Quote

Lets see ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES to SHWO Jesus was an Arch angel or just admit he was God before he took flesh.

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS AN ARCH ANGEL ,THIS IS YOUR INVENTION

Quote

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

YES,GOD JEHOVAH THE CREATOR HIS THE FATHER ,THE GOD ALMIGHTY ,THE GOD OF GODS AND LORD OF LORDS,HE ALONE HIS GOD

Quote

The Son is God, Yes
Is the Son God please answer yes/no

JN 20:17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”

HOW COULD THE SON BE THE ONE THAT HE HIS THE SON OF

JN 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

HOW COULD HE BE THE ONE THAT SEND HIM AND ALSO BE THE one THAT WAS SEND

The Word Became Flesh

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God.

this is the correct view of the original translation ,because we all know that scriptures teach that christ cannot be the one that he his the son of ,

and he cannot be the one which he is with,right yes

so your view is a flaw view and unscriptural

October 24, 2013 at 11:52 pm#360111

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,11:14)

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS AN ARCH ANGEL ,THIS IS YOUR INVENTION

Agreed, Pierre. I have also told Daniel on a number of occasions that I have NEVER claimed Jesus was an “archangel”.

Daniel, the question is whether or not Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, also IS that very Most High God he is the Son of.

So you need to ask: Is Jesus God Almighty – or not?

But you need to stop asking: Is Jesus God Almighty – or an archangel?

Because neither me nor Pierre believe Jesus is an “archangel”.

peace,
mike

October 29, 2013 at 11:39 pm#360523

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 25 2013,04:14)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,11:28)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,12:17)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 24 2013,06:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 23 2013,11:36)

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

Life in the NAME of Jesus -NO Condemnation in his name or in him. take care t.
Daniel

daniel

Hi t,

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

Lets see ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES to SHWO Jesus was an Arch angel or just admit he was God before he took flesh.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

Daniel

Quote

Lets see ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES to SHWO Jesus was an Arch angel or just admit he was God before he took flesh.

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS AN ARCH ANGEL ,THIS IS YOUR INVENTION

Quote

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

YES,GOD JEHOVAH THE CREATOR HIS THE FATHER ,THE GOD ALMIGHTY ,THE GOD OF GODS AND LORD OF LORDS,HE ALONE HIS GOD

Quote

The Son is God, Yes
Is the Son God please answer yes/no

HOW COULD THE SON BE THE ONE THAT HE HIS THE SON OF

JN 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

HOW COULD HE BE THE ONE THAT SEND HIM AND ALSO BE THE one THAT WAS SEND

The Word Became Flesh

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God.

this is the correct view of the original translation ,because we all know that scriptures teach that christ cannot be the one that he his the son of ,

and he cannot be the one which he is with,right yes

so your view is a flaw view and unscriptural

Hi T,
I willmake this quick as I really need to replie back to mike.

You NEED to PLEASE UNDERSTAND THE FACT that i'm not teaching that Jesus is the father, CAN YOU CONFIRM TO ME THAT YOU UNDERSTAND.

Great so you dont believe Jesus is an arch angel, good for you, the word was God not the god was an arch angel.

Its real SIMPLE.

Jeus became the Son of Man.

Do you question he is a man??

Let me ask you HOW CAN JESUS BE THE SON OF MAN and Man of that Son??

Can you see how silly your question is, its revealed to the babes and the inocent of heart.

Jesus said noone know the Son except the father and whom the father chooses to reveal him.

What was the Son before he took flesh.

Do you agree he was God or a god.
If so PLEASE give me the simple answer who is he a God of T?

Jesus is the Son of God, the one and only

John 1:18
New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

No one has ever seen God [the Father] except God [the Son].

You really truely insult the father if you teach
he wasn't the perfect father of his one and only true Son.
Its also really insulting to the Father if you teach that the Son isn't from and OF the substance of the Father alone.

take care.
Life in the Son for all those who will call on his name and accept him.
Daniel

October 29, 2013 at 11:58 pm#360526

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2013,10:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,11:14)

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS AN ARCH ANGEL ,THIS IS YOUR INVENTION

Agreed, Pierre. I have also told Daniel on a number of occasions that I have NEVER claimed Jesus was an “archangel”.

Daniel, the question is whether or not Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, also IS that very Most High God he is the Son of.

So you need to ask: Is Jesus God Almighty – or not?

But you need to stop asking: Is Jesus God Almighty – or an archangel?

Because neither me nor Pierre believe Jesus is an “archangel”.

peace,
mike

Jesus is definately the Almighty, he is the one and only true Son.

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Exodus 6:3
2God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord [Yahweh]. 3I appearedto Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord [Yahweh] I did not make myself fully known to them. 4I also established my covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, where they resided as foreigners.

Genesis 17:1
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD [Yahweh] appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:24
That night the LORD [Yahewh] appearedto him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham.”

Genesis 26:2
The LORD [Yahweh] appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live.

Genesis 35:9-11
After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appearedto him again and blessed him. 10God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel. ” So he named him Israel.11And God [Yahweh] said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will be among your descendants.

Genesis 48:3
Jacob said to Joseph, “God [Yahweh] Almightyappeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and there he blessed me

Why did Jesus speak CLEARLY for the sake of peoples salvation that no one has ever seen the Father form.

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 5:31
31If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

As ABOVE These things Jesus says that we *might* be saved, not for his glory but for the benefit of our salvation
35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

The Jews didn't have the new testament so Jesus is telling the Pharisees to search the Old testament because they bear witness about him! John 5 continues to tell us who in the Old Testament wrote about him.

John 5
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

So Jesus gives them important information in scriptures that testify about him so the Pharisees *might* be saved and continues to tell them where in scripture they need to look. Moses wrote about him…The important information that the Father gave to testify about his Son was that –– “no one has ever seen the father at any time ever” and the Jesus says for them to search the scriptures to look at what Moses wrote about him.

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

1John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,

So its very explicitly clear that no one has seen God the Father at any time and no one has seen his form.

Is this important and whats this got to do with salvation, Ohhhh is this what Jesus is getting at when he said the father bears witness about him and that these things are said “that we might be saved”. Is this what Jesus means when he said we would die in our sins unless we believe “I am he”, so the most important question/doctrine you will ever ask yourself is what is Jesus.

What si Jesus before he Took flesh,

Is he god, a god if he is a god whose God is he Mike? please answer this, I agree with one of your statements I'm sure you made saying that Jesus was true God and not a false God like wood carving or golden cow etc.

But whose God is he. and WHAT is he? No one knows the Son except the father and whom he chooses to reveal.

Life in the one and only TRUE Son *OF* God ALONE
Choose life
Daniel

October 30, 2013 at 12:02 am#360527

Participant

Daniel

Quote

Its real SIMPLE.

Jeus became the Son of Man.

Do you question he is a man??

Let me ask you HOW CAN JESUS BE THE SON OF MAN and Man of that Son??

this does not make sense at all.

Quote

Do you agree he was God or a god.

Christ ,the only begotten son of God ;his not GOD almighty but yes he is “a god”

Quote

John 1:18
New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. NIV

it seems that your version as different wording in it

Quote

You really truely insult the father if you teach he wasn't the perfect father of his one and only true Son.
Its also really insulting to the Father if you teach that the Son isn't from and OF the substance of the Father alone.

this is to me gibberish that does not make sense at all ;it is not in scriptures ,I NEVER TEACH OR SAY THINGS LIKE IT ;IT IS DEGRADING ONLY TO THINK THAT WAY

Please do not talk or think for me ;

October 31, 2013 at 12:24 am#360609

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 30 2013,11:02)

Daniel

Quote

Its real SIMPLE.

Jeus became the Son of Man.

Do you question he is a man??

Let me ask you HOW CAN JESUS BE THE SON OF MAN and Man of that Son??

this does not make sense at all.

Quote

Do you agree he was God or a god.

Christ ,the only begotten son of God ;his not GOD almighty but yes he is “a god”

Quote

John 1:18
New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. NIV

it seems that your version as different wording in it

Quote

You really truely insult the father if you teach he wasn't the perfect father of his one and only true Son.
Its also really insulting to the Father if you teach that the Son isn't from and OF the substance of the Father alone.

this is to me gibberish that does not make sense at all ;it is not in scriptures ,I NEVER TEACH OR SAY THINGS LIKE IT ;IT IS DEGRADING ONLY TO THINK THAT WAY

Please do not talk or think for me ;

Wow,

Sorry if I upset you, hey you forgot to answer the other BASIC QUESTIONS.

IS this because you cant answer them THATS why you now dont want to continue in a debate you joined?

I guess you answered the question that applies to the topic.

You admit he is a God, who is he a God of t?
Or it is that you believe he is a God of NOTHING?

Its like you think he is evil for being the same nature as his true Father.
I would find it VERY insulting if someone said my true Son wasn't wasn't the same nature as me.

REAL SIMPLE COMMON SENSE THAT YOU SIMPLY CANT DEBATE AGAINST BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE THE TRUTH.

If you DID have the Truth you would easily refute me BUT you CANT.

Jesus is the Son of MAN, he is also a MAN. #very simple#

Jesus is the “one and only” true Son of God, BUT EVEN MORE HE dervies his nature FROM the Father alone!!!! The same substance hebrews 1:3 in sacred scripture says *THE* Son is the radiance [the expressed image] of the Father. The Father didn't give birth like a female Women does and the Father didn't have to wait untill he was mature enought becuase the one and only true Son is the radiance of the Fathers glory this is what scripture teaches.

Hebrews 1:3
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word ofhis power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

t, Its like You think it is evil calling Jesus God, when it is basic common sense that Jesus is FROM and OF the Fathers substance ALONE, Jesus *THE* one and only true Son, the radiance as scripture teaches!!!

PLEASE ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR, I write this because I care and I'm certainly not forced to go out and make a certain number of hours door to door per week. If things aren't done inlove they are a waste of time.

Take care t, and yes I will remember YOU and in Jesus name I ask that he through the power of the Holy Spirit will reveal what scripture means when it says Unless you believe I AM **he** you will die in YOUR SINS.

All you believe is Jesus is a God, but a God of Nothing becuase you say hes not Thomas or Peters or Paul or Phillip God.
t, you say this is to me gibberish when I say that Jesus is the one and only Son, DONT you believe he the one and only true Son and dont you believe he derives his nature FRON and OF the fathers nature alone. Please teach ME how the Father is the true Father then, or is the father NOT a true Father?

T, when you see the Son you see the father, its your free will if you want to DENY Jesus but be warned those who deny jesus in front of man Jesus will deny ***them*** before his true eternal father who is in Heaven.

Life in the NAME of Jesus, choose Life
Daniel
PS there is no condemnation in the Son!!! But Life in HIS name

October 31, 2013 at 12:45 am#360611

Participant

Daniel

Quote

You admit he is a God, who is he(Christ) a God of t?

well he is god of everything that has been created after him ,that means “” all things” that were created “THROUGH HIM”

Quote

Wow,

Sorry if I upset you, hey you forgot to answer the other BASIC QUESTIONS.

IS this because you cant answer them THATS why you now dont want to continue in a debate you joined?

I guess you answered the question that applies to the topic.

you still downgrading me ,without reasons ,I never complained ;I ask you not to talk for me ;just answer my questions and I will answer yours ,but please make sure I can read it ;

Quote

Its like you think he is evil for being the same nature as his true Father.
I would find it VERY insulting if someone said my true Son wasn't wasn't the same nature as me.

REAL SIMPLE COMMON SENSE THAT YOU SIMPLY CANT DEBATE AGAINST BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE THE TRUTH.

If you DID have the Truth you would easily refute me BUT you CAN

this is premature my friend ,do not call yourself a winner ,until that day comes ;were you are found in a false concept of scriptures .

Quote

t, Its like You think it is evil calling Jesus God,

I never said this ;you again put lies in my mouth why yes he his a god ;BUT NOT THE FATHER GOD ALMIGHTY ;I TOLD YOU THIS MANY TIMES ;AND SO HE (CHRIST)SHOULD NOT BE WORSHIP IN THE SAME MANNER THAN THE FATHER;

I am not angry

Quote

T, when you see the Son you see the father

I AM SORRY BUT I DID NOT HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE OR MEET HIM ,WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH ;I THINK YOU SHOULD KNOW WHY RIGHT

Quote

but I do accept Christ as one through whom my God and saviour did save me from this world of sin and of my own sins ,

Quote

PS there is no condemnation in the Son!!!

no need our action and choices do the job ;

Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

October 31, 2013 at 12:48 am#360612

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 29 2013,17:58)

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Okay Daniel,

Let's discuss each of those “proof texts”, one at a time, and find out if they REALLY say what you claim they say. I've quoted the first one above.

First of all, that is such a nonsensical and lame translation of the words of John 1:18 that it is laughable. I mean, look at what the translation is saying: No one has EVER seen “God”, but “God”, who we all DID see, came to make “God” known to us.

So……… has no one ever seen God? Or have lots of people seen God when He came to earth in the flesh?

Which one fits what John actually wrote? Which one fits with “no one has seen God at any time“?

The correct translation is:
John 1:18 NWT
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

The Greek word “monogenes” means “only begotten”. The Most High God was not begotten, Daniel. Jesus is a different god who WAS begotten by the Most High God. (That's why he is the SON OF the Most High God – because fathers beget their sons.)

October 31, 2013 at 12:51 am#360614

Participant

Daniel

Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father’” ?

I do not see in those scriptures where it says that the son his God the father ;on the contrary it shows the very separation between them

November 3, 2013 at 11:40 pm#361024

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 31 2013,11:51)

Daniel

I do not see in those scriptures where it says that the son his God the father ;on the contrary it shows the very separation between them

Hi t,
thank you, this statement means heaps and shows that you are willing to admit to the scriptures that show that Jesus is God. I agree with the following statement.

well he is god of everything that has been created after him ,that means “” all things” that were created “THROUGH HIM”

Amen, Jesus is the God of everything except the Father, amen, amen, amen. to me this shows a lot and you aren't following man made cult ideas of Jesus being a God of nothing or some arch angel. Blessings in the name of Jesus!

So we know the following and agree.
Jesus isn't Michael or any other arch angel AND we know that Jesus isn't the God of NOTHING, but instead he is the God of Everything that has been created through him and for him. Otherwise Jesus is the god of ****nothing**** Which is total rubbish.

Cool, I see your last verse in hebrews which is the best explanation of what IT MEANS TO BE THE WORD OF GOD.
I will answer this asap I just want to read what Mike has posted as this is the first time back since my post.

take care t.
Life in the name of Jesus
Daniel

November 3, 2013 at 11:43 pm#361025

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2013,10:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 24 2013,11:14)

I NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS AN ARCH ANGEL ,THIS IS YOUR INVENTION

Agreed, Pierre. I have also told Daniel on a number of occasions that I have NEVER claimed Jesus was an “archangel”.

Daniel, the question is whether or not Jesus, the Son of the Most High God, also IS that very Most High God he is the Son of.

So you need to ask: Is Jesus God Almighty – or not?

But you need to stop asking: Is Jesus God Almighty – or an archangel?

Because neither me nor Pierre believe Jesus is an “archangel”.

peace,
mike

Hi Mike,
thank you, ok I cant say you do then and its great to know you dont think Jesus is an arch angel or some other angel. he is the Son, this is who he is, and what he is you just need to look at his Father.

I acknowledge
Because neither me nor Pierre believe Jesus is an “archangel”.
Blessing in Jesus name!

Life in the name of Jesus
Daniel

November 4, 2013 at 12:04 am#361028

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2013,11:48)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 29 2013,17:58)

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Okay Daniel,

Let's discuss each of those “proof texts”, one at a time, and find out if they REALLY say what you claim they say. I've quoted the first one above.

So……… has no one ever seen God? Or have lots of people seen God when He came to earth in the flesh?

Which one fits what John actually wrote? Which one fits with “no one has seen God at any time“?

The correct translation is:
John 1:18 NWT
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Hi Mike,

Please understand this I dont believe the father was begotton. I feel like we are getting somewhere!!

So your scripture translation you used says,
John 1:18 NWT
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten God who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Jesus is God by nature, he is NOT the Father but comes from the fathers nature ALONE, so he is true Son and true God.
he is the expressed image, which states he is the radiance of Gods Glory. He is also the expressed Word of the Father, e.g in the beginning was the *Word*.

But Jesus I dont think Jesus is every word of all the glory of the father.

Jesus is the testomony of the fathers eternal Almighty power, life and glory that is expressed, this shows the active force and truth that the father is truely Almighty and truly great.

If the Father wants to express his radiance of glory of Love and forgiveness, he sends his Son. Because i dont think the father can become a man and die for our sins, this is because the father is the origin he is the Source and Jesus is his true, one and only Son, who is God by nature from his true Father, amen!

this is why scriptures says these things are written so you will believe Jesus is the son of God, directly AFTER thomas said to “Jesus”, when he said to him, my Lord and my God.

Also this is what upset the whore who deny that Jesus was the Son of God, becuase what did they say, he calls God his OWN father, making himself equal to God. John chapter 5 then goes on to make the greatest revealtion that it was the Son that Moses seen in the old testament, that why jesus sadi moses wrote of him and he told them to search the scriptures because they about him and eternal LIFE.

Life in the name of Jesus.
Daniel

hope the spelling isn't to bad and I have done this justice, just dont deny that Jesus is true Son and true god and Worship him as the true one and only Son who is God by nature FROm and OF his Father.

November 5, 2013 at 2:17 am#361151