Who is this Jesus?

Participant

Mike?

October 21, 2013 at 9:01 pm#370709

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2013,10:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,13:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Mike,
Just saying “wrong” is a pretty lame defense.

I've already painstakingly explained why your conclusions are wrong, Kathi. So now all I need to do is say “wrong” each time you claim nonsense like that.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Why, I already showed you that there were the 'two houses' Israel and Judah mentioned when Jesus was on earth.

Was there a northern kingdom of Israel and a southern kingdom of Judah when Christ was on earth? NO. End of story.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Yes, Jehovah laid a cornerstone in Zion which many stumbled over and that stone is Jehovah of hosts, Jesus.

Wrong. Jehovah of hosts is the one who LAID a stone of stumbling in Zion. You are correct that the stone was the servant of Jehovah of host named Jesus.

Kathi, Jesus himself said that our God was also his God. So I ask you:

Is the God of Jesus THE God of Kathi? Or is the God of Jesus ONE OF THE Gods of Kathi? Which one?

Mike,
you said:

Quote

Jehovah of hosts is the one who LAID a stone of stumbling in Zion.

In this passage, who is the stone to strike and a rock to stumble over:

Isaiah 8
11For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,

12“You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.

13“It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.

14“Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15“Many will stumble over them,
Then they will fall and be broken;
They will even be snared and caught.”

Kathy

Isa 8:13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
Isa 8:14 and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel HE (THE LORD) will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.

THE LORD HIS THE ROCK /STONE

CHRIST BEING THE MEANS BY WHICH IT IS DONE

October 22, 2013 at 3:13 am#370710

Participant

Pierre,
The LORD of hosts is the Rock/Stone
Jesus is the Rock/Stone

The LORD of hosts is Jesus.

October 22, 2013 at 3:53 am#370711

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2013,09:13)

Pierre,
The LORD of hosts is the Rock/Stone
Jesus is the Rock/Stone

The LORD of hosts is Jesus.

Kathy

Not according to those scriptures it well says : the Lord :this means God Jehovah,

and understand that Christ is his servant

October 22, 2013 at 11:50 am#359919

Participant

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 15 2013,11:22)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2013,00:04)

Daniel

Quote

I have said this before and this is what i truly believe that scripture teaches, The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

this is the believe in the TRINITY ,what is definitely NOT SUPPORTED IN THE SCRIPTURES

THE LOOPHOLES THAT MEN DO NOT SEE ;
1CO 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1CO 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1CO 13:3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
1CO 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1CO 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1CO 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1CO 16:14 Let all that you do be done in love.
1CO 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha

THIS IS WHY CHRIST SAYS ;MT 7:21 “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

MT 13:41 “ The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
MT 13:43 “ Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

LK 18:17 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

MT 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

MT 6:33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

could it be that the TRINITY IS THE KINGDOM ? AND ALSO ITS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHY THEN WAS IT NOT SAID IN THAT FASHION ,??? IT NEVER WAS SAID,THOUGHT ,TEACHES,OR BELIEVED IN BY THE APOSTLES OR CHRIST ,BUT WAS A MEN'S DEDUCTION TO SATISFY THE CORRUPTED CHURCH OF THE TIMES,THE ANTICHRIST

Quote

Just like the source of Snow on a moutain or a cloud in the sky is H20, so can the expression of that source the rain and the river that flows done the mountain.

THOSE ANALOGY ARE ONLY ANALOGIES FROM MEN VIEW AND MANY ARE EXISTING USING OIL,AND OTHER INGREDIENTS,BUT IT IS ALL OF MEN NOT OF GOD ,
NO LOVE FOR GOD IN IT ,NO RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD IN IT ,SO I HAVE TO REJECT THIS TRINITY WITH ALL THE POWERS OF MY SOUL.

Hi t,
I truly believe we are NOT justified by faith alone.
We are justified by the free gift of grace which is freely given to those who have Agape [the Love of God], those who do not have the greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit which is Love do not know God because God is Love.

MT 7:21 “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

You can have believe in Jesus but without Love is means nothing, this is what the scriptures are teaching. Its certainly not teaching that Jesus wasn't God before he took flesh and its certainly not teaching that Jesus was an Arch angel or another type of Angel….. This is Why you can never answer the foundation of what was Jesus before he took Flesh.
Even if you try and say Jesus is A god, who is he a God of???

He is certainly my God and he certainly derives his nature FROM and OF the Father who sent him.

Life in the Son and his name
Daniel

daniel

Quote

Even if you try and say Jesus is A god, who is he a God of???

God almighty Jehovah = Jehovah the almighty one

god = mighty one

so if Jehovah his the almighty one :and the God of the gods

then he his also the God of Christ the god (mighty one) and the son (Christ his the god (mighty one ) over all of creation because he the first of that creation ;so no one except his God and father is above the son ,right

October 22, 2013 at 6:53 pm#370712

Participant

Pierre,
In a complex unity there can very well be those who serve the others! I know that the LORD means God Jehovah. Peter identifies the LORD of hosts that the LORD is referring to in Isaiah 8 as Jesus. The NT explains much about the OT.

October 22, 2013 at 9:36 pm#370713

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2013,00:53)

Quote

Peter identifies the LORD of hosts that the LORD is referring to in Isaiah 8 as Jesus.

scriptures in Peter 1 or 2 ?

October 22, 2013 at 10:51 pm#370714

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki….1916.29

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2013,12:53)

Funny you should mention Peter, who Jesus himself named “rock”. Perhaps Peter, himself a “rock”, is also a part of the Godhead unity, and that's why he was able to explain so much to us. You already have Jehovah the Father and Jehovah the Son……….. perhaps Peter can be Jehovah the Cousin?

Kathi, Jesus himself said that our God was also his God. So I ask you:

Is the God of Jesus THE God of Kathi? Or is the God of Jesus ONE OF THE Gods of Kathi? Which one?

October 22, 2013 at 11:58 pm#359965

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2013,17:22)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 15 2013,11:06)

Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 15 2013,00:04)

Daniel

Quote

I have said this before and this is what i truly believe that scripture teaches, The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

this is the believe in the TRINITY ,what is definitely NOT SUPPORTED IN THE SCRIPTURES

THIS IS WHY CHRIST SAYS ;MT 7:21 “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

LK 18:17 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

MT 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

MT 6:33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Quote

Just like the source of Snow on a moutain or a cloud in the sky is H20, so can the expression of that source the rain and the river that flows done the mountain.

Hi T,

The Father is God, Yes
Is the Father God please answer yes/no

The Son is God, Yes
Is the Son God please answer yes/no

The Holy Spirit is God, Yes
Is the Holy Spirit God please answer yes/no

If you answer no to any questions you know I will ASK *WHAT* is the Son then, *WHAT* is the Holy Spirit then.

The real test if you follow scripture and Worship the Son, there is no greater test to see if someone is following *man-made* cult than if they reject the simple truth that the Son is worthly of Worship.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

Daniel

Please put a scriptures beside each of your statement question ,so that we can see that it is true to the written word of God,

Then I will answer you,in a same maner with the scriptures,

Hi t,
First time I've had a chance to check this since my last post,
are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

t this debate (AS the heading suggests) is about what the Word was before he took flesh. if you believe he pre-existed PLEASE PLEASE tell me what you believe he was.

1: Is he a arch angel before he took flesh
2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)
3:or did he not pre-exist
4: You have no idea

Please just let me know if your answer is 1, 2 , 3 or 4.

Once you answer that very simple and logical question (because its very logical that you should know what you believe, Right???

Life in the testament of the Father's Almighty and eternal power, life and love, Jesus, who is my Lord and my God who LOVES you, and Whos not an arch Angel like michael, gabriel or a fallen arch angel like satan the deciever.
Daniel
ps there also no condemnation in calling him God and Worshipping him. philip knows when you see him you see the Father, accept the word of God and worship and scripture CLEARLY teaches.

October 23, 2013 at 12:23 am#359967

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,12:27)

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 13 2013,18:27)

Important NOte: the Son is not another Father, he doesn't in turn generate another Son, he is generated eternaly to reciperate Love back to the Father.

But Daniel, it seems that all of your “Important Notes” are man-made doctrines – and not found in any scripture.

Where in scripture can I read about the “eternal generation” of Jesus? Nowhere. So why then should I believe such a thing?

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 13 2013,18:27)

I think the most important thing to look at is Jesus WORSHIPED?

No. Jesus is never once worshipped as if he was God Almighty. He is bowed to, just like King David, Samuel, Elijah, and many others were bowed to. But none of them were ever worshipped by someone who thought they were actually the very God they were the servant of.

You imagine that Jesus is the only servant of God who IS the very God he serves. I don't know why you imagine such a thing, but it definitely isn't scriptural.

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 13 2013,18:27)

So my question is, IS the Father capable of generating something higher than the Lord of Glory before he took flesh?

Let me ask you this: If Jehovah DID for some reason decide to generate (which, BTW, is just another word for “create”) a being who IS higher than Jesus……….. would that new being be lower than the God who generated him? YES or NO?

Hi Mike,

Mike I believe God is one, but he is like a reaction (unapprocahable light) The father is the source of the Light and the Son is the expressed image of that Light. God is Almighty and the Son is the testament of the fathers eternal Almightly power.

regarding Worship…
Ask your family Mike, ask your Mum and Dad, or even your grand parents if they are still alive.

Mike, let me explain something, i think jws are really nice people, I look forward to every chance I can proclaim and ask them to accept jesus as their true Lord and Saviour. I feel compelled by Holy Spirit to talk with them.

But as for the Watch Tower I can't believe that after around 80 years of teaching that Jesus is WORSHIPPED. And we all why why they cahnged there minds its not rocket science.

Mike, the way I see it, if jesus is NOT god [but instead an arch angel] and IF Jesus is NOT meant to be Worshipped. the Watch tower would be the true Church.

Mike but if the Watch Tower taught for around 80 years that Jesus SHOULD *BE* Worshipped, and then NO-ONE can show me a single example before 1950 in any of there documentation that they taught Jesus should NOT be worshipped.

So since 1870 to 1950, (80 years solid) the leaders of the jws taught Jesus should be Worshipped what happened to all those people who worshipped Jesus.

Mike, I know for some reason you are not a jw but understand if these guys are this mixed up maybe you have things wrong also.

Mike, next time you talk to your parents or someone you know in the jws group can you please ask them to provide just one single example of them teaching that Jesus should NOT be worshipped. I can provide you with examples that explicitly state that Jesus SHOULD be worshipped from the teachings and documentation so I'm really interested to know how on earth they harmonise this fact.

Mike, let me show you with scripture that Jesus is really truely worshipped.

Please accept jesus as your true Lord and Savior.

Life in the name of Jesus
Daniel

October 23, 2013 at 12:36 am#359968

Participant

daniel

Quote

are you saying you want me to show the scriptures where Jesus is called God? This is very easy and I have already done this multiple times.

yes but not Thomas the sceptik and the loser ,

Quote

2: Is he true God [*From* and *OF* his Father substance alone = true God)

how you want me to answer this gibberish??? are you talking of God or his son

October 23, 2013 at 1:32 am#359980

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ Oct. 22 2013,18:23)

1 Chronicles 29:20 King James Version
And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.

Did these people “worship” King David as if they thought he was God Almighty Himself? Of course not.

So while I don't know the history of the JW's organization, I suspect that the word “worship” in their older writings had a meaning closer to the meaning of the KJV's use of “worship the king” in the above verse.

As time goes on, the meanings of certain words change. And perhaps, starting about the 1950's, the commonly accepted meaning of “worship” changed to more of a God only thing, and so the JW's stopped using the word “worship” in reference to Jesus.

At any rate, you and I both know that King David was never “worshiped” as if he was Jehovah. Yet there are the words, in black and white in the KJV Bible, right? So what do we do with that, knowing that both the Hebrew and Greek words for “worship” also mean “pay homage”, “do obeisance”, “honor”, etc? Do we assume that the Israelites WORSHIPPED King David as if he was God? Or do we assume the more sensible explanation that they “honored” King David, or “paid homage” to him?

Of course, you'll agree it is the latter, right? So what of the verses that say Jesus was worshipped? You will understand them to mean his disciples, for some strange reason, thought he was the very God he prayed to, and therefore worshipped him as God Almighty. I will assume the more sensible understanding that they were “honoring” and “paying homage” to him.

Daniel, you didn't answer the last question from my previous post. Please do so. I would like an honest answer:

If Jehovah DID for some reason decide to generate a being who IS higher than Jesus……….. would that new being be lower than the God who generated him? YES or NO?

October 23, 2013 at 2:25 am#370715

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 28 2013,23:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,13:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Mike,
Just saying “wrong” is a pretty lame defense.

I've already painstakingly explained why your conclusions are wrong, Kathi. So now all I need to do is say “wrong” each time you claim nonsense like that.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Why, I already showed you that there were the 'two houses' Israel and Judah mentioned when Jesus was on earth.

Was there a northern kingdom of Israel and a southern kingdom of Judah when Christ was on earth? NO. End of story.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 21 2013,20:40)

Yes, Jehovah laid a cornerstone in Zion which many stumbled over and that stone is Jehovah of hosts, Jesus.

Wrong. Jehovah of hosts is the one who LAID a stone of stumbling in Zion. You are correct that the stone was the servant of Jehovah of host named Jesus.

Kathi, Jesus himself said that our God was also his God. So I ask you:

Is the God of Jesus THE God of Kathi? Or is the God of Jesus ONE OF THE Gods of Kathi? Which one?

Mike,
you said:

Quote

Jehovah of hosts is the one who LAID a stone of stumbling in Zion.

In this passage, who is the stone to strike and a rock to stumble over:

Isaiah 8
11For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,

12“You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.

13“It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.

14“Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15“Many will stumble over them,
Then they will fall and be broken;
They will even be snared and caught.”

Bump for Mike…Why are you having trouble answering this??

October 23, 2013 at 2:26 am#370716

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,17:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2013,12:53)

Kathi, Jesus himself said that our God was also his God. So I ask you:

Is the God of Jesus THE God of Kathi? Or is the God of Jesus ONE OF THE Gods of Kathi? Which one?

Peter isn't Jehovah, Jesus is.

October 23, 2013 at 2:27 am#370717

Participant

God is our Father and Lord Jesus Christ like scripture teaches us, Mike.

October 23, 2013 at 7:19 am#370718

Participant

KATHY

October 23, 2013 at 5:45 pm#370719

Participant

Pierre :blues:
Become a serious student of the Word, then you would also know these things.

October 23, 2013 at 7:46 pm#370720

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 23 2013,23:45)

Pierre

Become a serious student of the Word, then you would also know these things.

Kathy

that is the way the deceiver answered ,no “direct answer “

October 23, 2013 at 11:46 pm#370721

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 22 2013,20:25)

Bump for Mike…Why are you having trouble answering this??

No “trouble”, Kathi. Just a lack of interest.

Haven't I already showed you a few scriptures where it is clear that “Jehovah of hosts” is someone OTHER THAN the forthcoming Messiah?

And haven't I already explained that sometimes Jehovah of hosts is the “rock”, other times Jesus is the “rock”, and still other times Peter is the “rock”?

I believe I have. Mission over. No need to go on about claims that have already been proven false, right?

Kathi, if being a “rock” is all it takes for someone to be “Jehovah”, then you'd better add Peter to your list of Jehovahs.

October 23, 2013 at 11:52 pm#370722