Who is this Jesus?

[2besee]

Thank you Lightenup, but is WJ unable to answer himself?

No, I did not see your reply earlier.
I am subscribed to the topic and only read the email version (Reason being I am almost out of phone data).
If it was not addressed to me, the quote does not show.

I would like to hear an answer from a trinitarian.
Then I may ask others.

[2besee]

So, Wj, do you want this to be a hot seat topic because you are still IGNORING my post completely!

I will set it up as soon as I can.

[Lightenup]

2besee,
I'm sure Keith can answer the question himself. He hasn't yet, and since this is a group thread and I thought you were more interested in how your question could be answered rather than who answered it, I gave you an answer. The answer I gave you should be sufficient from the trinitarian viewpoint as well.

Now that you have seen my answer to your question please tell me if you do or don't think my answer has scriptural merit. If you don't think it has scriptural merit, then please explain why…scripturally. thx

[2besee]

Lightenup,
No.
Your answer does not make much sense to me, sorry.

I think I will leave it for WJ to answer HERE   because I would like an answer from a trinitarian.
So I will leave this thread for now.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13)

Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

kATHI

yes ,Christ is the one that give us life but he is not that live ,God is the life giver ,he showed that by resurrecting his own son, but Christ is for us the way to eternal life,if we obey him

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,21:34)

If you believe that Jehovah is the MOST HIGH theos, then yes there are other writings of Peter's that support that claim. First read Isaiah 8: 12 neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, Peter writes this in 1 Peter 3 and refers to Jesus as the LORD of hosts of the Isaiah passage: 1 Peter 3: 14b-15a AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts,

I'm not seeing that red part of your claim in Peter's words, Kathi.

There are many stumbling blocks mentioned in scripture.    Jesus is but one of them.  Jehovah and man-made idols are also some of the stumbling blocks mentioned in scripture.

1 Peter NET
3:14 But in fact, if you happen to suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. But do not be terrified of them or be shaken. 23  

3:15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess.

Notice how they bold only the part that actually IS a quotation from Isaiah 8?  Footnote 23 says, “A quotation from Isa 8:12.”  They don't attribute verse 15 as having anything to do with Isaiah 8.  Why do you?

The bottom line is that there is nothing in 1 Peter 3:14-15 that says Jesus is Jehovah, or even equates him with Jehovah.

(I am happy that you are finally at least trying to find another Peter quote to support your claim that Jesus is God Almighty.  Unfortunately, this one doesn't do it.  The score remains 2.5 for me and .5 for you.  Care to try again?  Or are you ready to admit defeat?)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,21:34)

33just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,

Yes, Jesus indeed is the stumbling block that Jehovah laid in Zion.

But we can talk more about this verse if and when you agree to do this same kind of discussion on the words of Paul. Right now, we haven't officially ended with Peter…… although we both know it is technically over, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,08:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2013,11:25) And the scriptures clearly identify Jesus as one of the many lesser gods that Jehovah is the Most High God OF. Meaning you are a Polytheist or at best a Henotheist.

Okay.  And?

My understanding is aligned WITH the scriptures, Keith.  If the fact that I believe the scriptures when they teach about the other gods in existence makes you call me a “polytheist”, I'm okay with that.  

Jesus and I only WORSHIP one God, Jehovah.  After all, his one and only God is also my one and only God.  He told me so in scripture.  But that being said, I won't go AGAINST scripture and claim that there literally exists only one elohim.  Get it?  I only WORSHIP one god.  But I acknowledge the existence of many.  These things I learned from scripture.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,08:59)

Where is the scripture that claims Jesus is a “lesser god” along with other so-called gods which are merely idols of men or were worshipped as gods even as satan who rules in the hearts of men today………

If Jesus is a god, as he is called in scripture, but he is not the MOST HIGH God, then what else could he be but a “less high god” than his own God, Jehovah?  And we know he is not the MOST HIGH God, because he is the Son, Servant, Prophet, Priest, and Sacrificial Lamb OF that One.  That only leaves “less high god”.

And just so you know, there is no Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic scripture that ever mentions the phrases “so-called god” or “false god”.  And that means it is just your empty claim that Satan is a “false god”, Keith.  There is no scripture that says such a thing – even though both Jehovah and Paul call Satan a god.

Webster's Dictionary:
god
Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

Are you going to tell me that Jehovah is the ONLY one in scripture that fits that definition?  If you think that, then go read Job, where Satan displays his power over Sabeans, Chaldeans, mighty winds, and fire from heaven………. all in the very first chapter.  Or read chapter 2, where he displays his power over the physical well being of Job himself.

Or read Exodus again, and then tell me who exactly turned staffs into snakes, water into blood, and made frogs appear out of thin air.  These are things Pharaoh's priests did, right?  By whose power did these MEN do such things, Keith?  Here is the answer:

Exodus 12:12 King James Version
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

One cannot “execute judgment” against inanimate idols made of stone or metal.  Nor could those idols perform the wonders that the gods of Egypt clearly performed.  And we know they are neither “man” nor “beast”, because they are listed in apposition to those things in the verse above.

So who exactly are “the gods of Egypt”?  Remember the wonders they performed.  Remember that they are never called “false gods” or “so-called gods”.

Keith, I have MUCH more to say on this subject.  Since you've been gone, I've done much research into it and have had many discussions about it.  If you truly want to learn the truth of the matter, I would be happy to go step by step with you, and show you what the Bible REALLY teaches about gods.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,08:59)

Believe the word Mike that there is NO God but ONE! KJV As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Yet Paul goes on to say, “Indeed there ARE many gods and many lords…….. both in heaven and on earth”.  Believe the word, Keith.

Imagine that Paul had said, “There is none other savior but one.  For even if there are those called saviors, whether from heaven or from earth, for us there is but one savior, the Father.”

Would you then take it in a literal sense, and put the scriptures that clearly teach of other saviors in conflict with this scripture?  Or would you pray for a different way to understand those words – one that doesn't pit scripture against scripture?

Because right now, you are pitting “there is none other god but one” against “indeed there are many gods, in heaven and on earth”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,14:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2013,19:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45) Regarding Matt 16:16, I am not denying that He is also the Son of God. But there is no hint of “also” in Matthew 16:16.  There is only “THE living God”, and the Son and Messiah OF “THE living God”.  Which one of those two is Jesus?  Is he THE living God?  Or the other one? They are both living and are both theos and both eternal. It depends on context as to which one is meant.

Kathi,

Aren't we going scripture by scripture with this “Peter” discussion?  So obviously, if the scripture I quoted was Matthew 16:16, then the answer you give should naturally be based on the context of Matthew 16:16, right?  

So, IN THE CONTEXT OF MATTHEW 16:16, is Jesus “THE living God”?  Or the other one?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,15:13)

Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

And that's really the correct context, Kathi.  Since the eternal life that GOD has offered us comes only through Jesus Christ, Jesus can be called “the eternal life who was with the Father”.  Because to us, he IS that eternal life in the sense that the eternal life only comes to us through him.

(It doesn't say anything about Jesus being eternal.  Don't forget that he died.  Nor does it say anything about Jesus existing FROM eternity.)

As long as we all take it in the right context, without pushing our own bias into the scriptural teaching, we'll come out okay.  

P.S.  I liked your post to Keith about Psalm 82.  Of course you know I believe the psalm refers to Jehovah talking to his heavenly counsel of angels (also called “gods” in many scriptures), and chiding some of them for the poor job they have done in looking after mankind for Him.  This is why it says that although they are gods, they will die like men.  (What sense would it make to tell a MAN he was going to die like a MAN?   )

I also believe it was Jehovah who said those words.  At the very least, the words were inspired by Jehovah.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2013,18:17)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,21:34) If you believe that Jehovah is the MOST HIGH theos, then yes there are other writings of Peter's that support that claim. First read Isaiah 8: 12 neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. 13Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, Peter writes this in 1 Peter 3 and refers to Jesus as the LORD of hosts of the Isaiah passage: 1 Peter 3: 14b-15a AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, I'm not seeing that red part of your claim in Peter's words, Kathi. There are many stumbling blocks mentioned in scripture.    Jesus is but one of them.  Jehovah and man-made idols are also some of the stumbling blocks mentioned in scripture. 1 Peter NET 3:14 But in fact, if you happen to suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. But do not be terrified of them or be shaken. 23   3:15 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess. Notice how they bold only the part that actually IS a quotation from Isaiah 8?  Footnote 23 says, “A quotation from Isa 8:12.”  They don't attribute verse 15 as having anything to do with Isaiah 8.  Why do you? The bottom line is that there is nothing in 1 Peter 3:14-15 that says Jesus is Jehovah, or even equates him with Jehovah. (I am happy that you are finally at least trying to find another Peter quote to support your claim that Jesus is God Almighty.  Unfortunately, this one doesn't do it.  The score remains 2.5 for me and .5 for you.  Care to try again?  Or are you ready to admit defeat?)

Mike,
It is your heart that is blinded to this association that Peter makes with the LORD of hosts in Isaiah 8:13 with Christ our Lord in 1 Peter 3. There are plenty of scholars that can see it.

Evidence of that here:
Pulpit Commentary says:
Whichever translation is adopted, St. Peter here substitutes the Savior's Name where the prophet wrote, “the Lord of hosts, Jehovah Sabaoth” – a change which would be nothing less than impious if the Lord Jesus Christ were not truly God.

Gill:
see Isaiah 8:13 and which has for its object his goodness, and is a fruit of the covenant of his grace, and is a child like and godly fear; and in the exercise of faith upon him, upon his covenant and promises, his faithfulness, and power to help, assist, and preserve; whereby glory is given to him, a witness borne to his truth, and he is sanctified: some copies, as the Alexandrian, and one of Stephens's, read, sanctify the Lord Christ; and so read the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions; and certain it is that he is intended in Isaiah 8:13 as appears from 1 Peter 3:14 compared with Romans 9:33.

http://biblehub.com/1_peter/3-15.htm

This is one way for me to show you that your heart is blind since you cannot see the connection when others much more knowledgeable than you (the Bible commentators) can see the connection.

You should read Psalm 8 and see that one Jehovah is talking about another Jehovah and calling Him 'Jehovah of hosts.' The NT clarifies that one to be the Christ our Lord.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2013,19:20)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,14:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2013,19:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45) Regarding Matt 16:16, I am not denying that He is also the Son of God. But there is no hint of “also” in Matthew 16:16.  There is only “THE living God”, and the Son and Messiah OF “THE living God”.  Which one of those two is Jesus?  Is he THE living God?  Or the other one? They are both living and are both theos and both eternal. It depends on context as to which one is meant. Kathi, Aren't we going scripture by scripture with this “Peter” discussion?  So obviously, if the scripture I quoted was Matthew 16:16, then the answer you give should naturally be based on the context of Matthew 16:16, right?   So, IN THE CONTEXT OF MATTHEW 16:16, is Jesus “THE living God”?  Or the other one?

Mike,
The 'Living God' in Matt 16:16 is the Father. There are two who are living and theos to believe in, the Father and the Son. Matt 16 mentions the two but applies the term 'Living God' to the Father in that context.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2013,18:21)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,21:34) 33just as it is written,            “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, Yes, Jesus indeed is the stumbling block that Jehovah laid in Zion. But we can talk more about this verse if and when you agree to do this same kind of discussion on the words of Paul.  Right now, we haven't officially ended with Peter…… although we both know it is technically over, right?

Mike,
Since you realize that Jehovah of hosts is the stumbling block that Jehovah has laid in Zion and you know that Jesus is that stumbling block, then what Peter says in 1 Peter 3 shouldn't be so hard to see that the one who we are to sanctify in our hearts is also Jehovah of hosts which Peter is referring to by quoting Isaiah 8 and identifying as the Christ our Lord.

Isaiah 8:
11For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,

12“You are not to say, ‘It is a conspiracy!’
In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy,
And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.

13“It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy.
And He shall be your fear,
And He shall be your dread.

14“Then He shall become a sanctuary;
But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over,
And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15“Many will stumble over them,
Then they will fall and be broken;
They will even be snared and caught.”

Both Peter and Paul associate the LORD of hosts of Isaiah 8:13 with the Christ.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 06 2013,19:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 06 2013,15:13) Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. And that's really the correct context, Kathi.  Since the eternal life that GOD has offered us comes only through Jesus Christ, Jesus can be called “the eternal life who was with the Father”.  Because to us, he IS that eternal life in the sense that the eternal life only comes to us through him. (It doesn't say anything about Jesus being eternal.  Don't forget that he died.  Nor does it say anything about Jesus existing FROM eternity.) As long as we all take it in the right context, without pushing our own bias into the scriptural teaching, we'll come out okay.   P.S.  I liked your post to Keith about Psalm 82.  Of course you know I believe the psalm refers to Jehovah talking to his heavenly counsel of angels (also called “gods” in many scriptures), and chiding some of them for the poor job they have done in looking after mankind for Him.  This is why it says that although they are gods, they will die like men.  (What sense would it make to tell a MAN he was going to die like a MAN?   ) I also believe it was Jehovah who said those words.  At the very least, the words were inspired by Jehovah.

Mike,
Again your heart is consistently blinded.

To show you that the Bible commentator scholars can see this, see here:
Matthew Henry:
1:1-4 That essential Good, that uncreated Excellence, which had been from the beginning, from eternity, as equal with the Father, and which at length appeared in human nature for the salvation of sinners, was the great subject concerning which the apostle wrote to his brethren. The apostles had seen Him while they witnessed his wisdom and holiness, his miracles, and love and mercy, during some years, till they saw him crucified for sinners, and afterwards risen from the dead. They touched him, so as to have full proof of his resurrection. This Divine Person, the Word of life, the Word of God, appeared in human nature, that he might be the Author and Giver of eternal life to mankind, through the redemption of his blood, and the influence of his new-creating Spirit.

Pulpit Commentary:
What St. John has to announce is his own experience of the Eternal Word incarnate, the Eternal Life made manifest (John 14:6); his hearing of his words, his seeing with his own eyes his Messianic works, his contemplation of the Divinity which shone through both; his handling of the body of the risen Redeemer.

John Gill:
Jesus Christ is here intended, who in his divine nature was, really existed as a divine person, as the everlasting Jehovah, the eternal I AM, which is, and was, and is to come, and existed “from the beginning”; not from the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel by John only, for he was before the Gospel was preached, being the first preacher of it himself, and before John was; yea, before the prophets, before Abraham, and before Adam, and before all creatures, from the beginning of time, and of the creation of the world, being the Maker of all things, even from everlasting; for otherwise he could not have been set up in an office capacity so early, or God's elect be chosen in him before the foundation of the world, and they have grace and blessings given them in him before the world began, or an everlasting covenant be made with him; see John 1:1;

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

That which was—not “began to be,” but was essentially (Greek, “een,” not “egeneto”) before He was manifested (1Jo 1:2); answering to “Him that is from the beginning” (1Jo 2:13); so John's Gospel, Joh 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word.” Pr 8:23, “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.”

etc…..

http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Mike,
Jesus was the eternal Life before He became flesh. He didn't become the eternal life.

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,17:36)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13) Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. kATHI yes ,Christ is the one that give us life but he is not that live ,God is the life giver ,he showed that by resurrecting his own son, but Christ is for us the way to eternal life,if we obey him

Pierre,
Christ IS that one, the eternal life that is the Word of Life in 1 John 1.

Do the commentators agree with me or you on this. Read the commentaries found here after the parallel verses:

http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,11:08)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,17:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13) Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. kATHI yes ,Christ is the one that give us life but he is not that live ,God is the life giver ,he showed that by resurrecting his own son, but Christ is for us the way to eternal life,if we obey him Pierre, Christ IS that one, the eternal life that is the Word of Life in 1 John 1. Do the commentators agree with me or you on this. Read the commentaries found here after the parallel verses: http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Kathi

What is the meaning of 1John 12 What does the word “having ” means Would it mean that we have to own Christ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 06 2013,16:35)

So, Wj, do you want this to be a hot seat topic because you are still IGNORING my post completely! I will set it up as soon as I can.

Hey bud!

I don't know what your beef is but I think Kathi has answered you will. That is why I didn't answer.

I am limited for time and will not spend my time answering something that I feel is unworthy of my time.

No offence but Phil 2 explains that Jesus took on the form of a man and as Kathi has pointed out his nature or character did not have to change by coming in the flesh for he is a Spirit being that took on the “Likeness” of sinful flesh yet he did no sin.

Jesus is God in Spirit and man in the flesh. There is your answer friend. It is called the “Hypostatic union”. You can read about it Here or Here!

There is your answer, though you don't have to agree with it!  

Blessings!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,11:08) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,17:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13) Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. kATHI yes ,Christ is the one that give us life but he is not that live ,God is the life giver ,he showed that by resurrecting his own son, but Christ is for us the way to eternal life,if we obey him Pierre, Christ IS that one, the eternal life that is the Word of Life in 1 John 1. Do the commentators agree with me or you on this. Read the commentaries found here after the parallel verses: http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm Kathi What is the meaning of 1John 12 What does the word “having ” means Would it mean that we have to own Christ

What version of the Bible has 1 John 12 in it??

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 07 2013,10:27)

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 06 2013,16:35) So, Wj, do you want this to be a hot seat topic because you are still IGNORING my post completely! I will set it up as soon as I can. Hey bud! I don't know what your beef is but I think Kathi has answered you will. That is why I didn't answer. I am limited for time and will not spend my time answering something that I feel is unworthy of my time. No offence but Phil 2 explains that Jesus took on the form of a man and as Kathi has pointed out his nature or character did not have to change by coming in the flesh for he is a Spirit being that took on the “Likeness” of sinful flesh yet he did no sin. Jesus is God in Spirit and man in the flesh. There is your answer friend. It is called the “Hypostatic union”. You can read about it Here or Here! There is your answer, though you don't have to agree with it!   Blessings! WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,00:08)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 06 2013,17:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 07 2013,03:13) Pierre, 1 John 5 goes on to say that having the Son equates to having eternal life: 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. kATHI yes ,Christ is the one that give us life but he is not that live ,God is the life giver ,he showed that by resurrecting his own son, but Christ is for us the way to eternal life,if we obey him Pierre, Christ IS that one, the eternal life that is the Word of Life in 1 John 1. Do the commentators agree with me or you on this. Read the commentaries found here after the parallel verses: http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Pierre,

Please answer this question.

Do the commentators agree with me or you on this? Read the commentaries found here after the parallel verses:

http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Thanks!

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