Who is this Jesus?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2013,12:33)

“Our Lord” – according to your Peshitta, right?

So now what, Kathi?

Also, I haven't “declared it to be translated wrong” at all.

I gave each of us half a point for this verse, since it CAN faithfully be translated two different ways. (Well three ways now, since we have that Peshitta information to add to the balance, right?)

So take your half a point, and go look for another scripture. I've already gained a full point lead over you with Matthew 16:16, right? It's time for you to play catch-up.

Oh, and I'll quickly throw in 2 Peter 1:2, where it is clear that Peter knows the difference between “God” and “Jesus our Lord”.

So now you're two full points behind. Better hurry up before you get buried.

Mike,
2 Peter is not in the Peshitta. It is part of the 'Western
Five' that was apparently translated from the Greek. We need to go by what the earliest Greek manuscripts say because they are more reliable.

Regarding Matt 16:16, I am not denying that He is also the Son of God. He is both as we know from many passages.

Why don't you make a list of what Jesus is to 'us,' ya know the verses that use terms like 'our' or 'of us' or 'to us.' That is where I think you will learn the most. Your 'points' don't mean anything if you deny who Jesus is to His true followers.

August 4, 2013 at 6:49 pm#370102

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,12:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,21:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2013,21:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14)

Hey t

What in my statement about t8 is untrue?

You are showing your bias also!

Quote

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,

If yes, then what Keith said is true about what you believe.

Kathi

their are many other mighty ones (gods) what I believe exist does that make me polygamist in my believe in one god I do not think so

Pierre,
You deny that the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning was indeed an eternal life and that leads to your false doctrine, imo.

I believe that the 'Word of the LORD' was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.

August 4, 2013 at 6:54 pm#370101

Participant

Mike,
you said:

Quote

I gave each of us half a point for this verse, since it CAN faithfully be translated two different ways.

I strongly disagree and so does the NET translators. There is only one article for God and Savior and therefore both belong to one referent, Jesus Christ.
Peter only wrote it one way. Since there is no Aramaic original, we have to look at the evidence in the oldest known manuscripts.

August 4, 2013 at 7:14 pm#370100

Participant

Quote (abe @ Aug. 04 2013,12:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,08:04)

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 03 2013,20:55)

WJ,

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

God is not a man.

Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”

James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.

Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?

There is only one God.

We know that Jesus did not lie or need to repent either. It seems the message is more about the character of God than His form. The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc. Their character is unchanging.

Yahweh our Righteousness's character is unchanging, no matter the form.

Hi LU,

(Quote)
The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc.

2Cor.5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He Made Him who knew no sin *To be sin* on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

21He Made Him who knew no sin *To be sin* on our behalf,

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time *Without sin* unto salvation.

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time *Without sin* unto salvation.

Ps.51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Peace sister……..

Hi abe,
1 peter 2
22He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Peace to you

August 4, 2013 at 11:42 pm#370099

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,00:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,12:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,21:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2013,21:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14)

Hey t

What in my statement about t8 is untrue?

You are showing your bias also!

Quote

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,

If yes, then what Keith said is true about what you believe.

Kathi

their are many other mighty ones (gods) what I believe exist does that make me polygamist in my believe in one god I do not think so

Pierre,
You deny that the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning was indeed an eternal life and that leads to your false doctrine, imo.

I believe that the 'Word of the LORD' was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.

Kathi

what you believe is a personal view on what the scriptures do not support ,

MT 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

MT 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

JN 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

RO 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

were does it say that :THE WORD OF GOD ” is the ETERNAL LIFE

please quote your scriptures

August 5, 2013 at 12:34 am#370097

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45)

It is part of the 'Western
Five' that was apparently translated from the Greek.

And what are those five books, Kathi?

Because we need to look into those five books and see if “marya” is anywhere in them. If it is, and you acknowledge those five books were translated FROM the Greek, then it will be proof positive that “marya” is nothing more than one of the Aramaic words for “kurios”, or “lord”.

Let's get on that ASAP, okay? At the very least, it seems to have been confirmed that at least Peter, a Jewish disciple who spoke Aramaic, wrote his letters in Greek. And that pretty much shoots down your former claim that Jesus' disciples surely would have written in Aramaic, right?

August 5, 2013 at 12:38 am#370098

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45)

Why don't you make a list of what Jesus is to 'us,' ya know the verses that use terms like 'our' or 'of us' or 'to us.' That is where I think you will learn the most.

:laugh: Already? I though it would take a little longer before you had to narrow the search parameters so that virtually EVERYTHING Peter said or wrote in scripture couldn't be used against you!

Thanks for the offer, but no thanks. We are searching simply for scriptures where Peter either displays evidence that Jesus IS “God”, or evidence that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN “God”. Don't worry, there will be plenty of them were Jesus is called the Lord of us in apposition to the God of us.

August 5, 2013 at 12:43 am#370096

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:45)

Regarding Matt 16:16, I am not denying that He is also the Son of God.

But there is no hint of “also” in Matthew 16:16. There is only “THE living God”, and the Son and Messiah OF “THE living God”. Which one of those two is Jesus? Is he THE living God? Or the other one?

August 5, 2013 at 1:08 am#370095

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,12:54)

Mike,
you said:

Quote

I gave each of us half a point for this verse, since it CAN faithfully be translated two different ways.

I strongly disagree and so does the NET translators. There is only one article for God and Savior and therefore both belong to one referent, Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure what narrowed parameters Sharpe put on this charade, but a man cannot possibly notice hundreds of years later that there is a pattern in certain verses, and then claim that this was some Greek rule that could not, and cannot be broken. We could surely look with hindsight to any great literary work, and search out such patterns. Would that give us the right to make up a rule, years later, and base all English writings on a weird coincidence that was found in, say, Moby Dick?

At any rate, look at 1 Timothy 1:1. There is no definite article used there at all, yet it speaks of two. Look at verse 2, there is only one definite article used there, yet it speaks of two.

Pay special attention to verse 1, where God is called our Savior, but without a definite article. So if it can be said, “God, Savior of us” (1 Tim 1:1), then it can be said “of the God of us and of Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:1). It is the same with 2 Peter 1:11. The Greek words are, kingdom of the lord of us and of savior Jesus Christ.

Do you see my point? In 1 Tim 1:1, it doesn't say, “God, THE savior of us”. It just says “God savior of us”. So if “THE” isn't needed in 1 Tim, then why would it be needed in 2 Peter 1:1 or 1:11?

So naturally, you'll be able to come up with a MILLION different “experts” who want to claim that 2 Peter 1:1 MUST BE calling Jesus “our god”. But these “experts” are all Trinitarians, and WANT Peter to be calling Jesus “our god” – as if being called “god” would prove something.

I wonder if anyone's ever checked Sharpe's Rule OUTSIDE OF the Bible – like in secular Greek writings from the era.

August 5, 2013 at 7:34 am#370094

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2013,03:35)

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Why play the caps game?

You say Jesus is “a god” like the JWs.

You worship god the Father and “a god” the Son.

That is Mystery Babylon!

Not true. I don't believe that.
Get your facts straight before trying to defer your Babylonian roots by making out that they apply to me instead.

When you get the facts straight, then go from there.

August 5, 2013 at 7:39 am#370093

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 04 2013,02:20)

Hi T8,

The Catholic Church is not
“MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” (Rev 17:5)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J, many religions are rooted in Babylon.
One of them is Catholicism.

The Trinity derives from Babylon, not the pages of the Bible.

How many Christians believe that Jesus was born on Dec 25. How many believe in the Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven. How many believe in the Trinity.

All who do are under the influence of Babylon. They are drunk. The good news is God wants you to come out of her. The bad news is that some won't come out and will continue to worship idols and teach false doctrine. Even till the very end.

August 5, 2013 at 7:43 am#370092

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2013,03:35)

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Why play the caps game?

You say Jesus is “a god” like the JWs.

You worship god the Father and “a god” the Son.

That is Mystery Babylon!

A very low score WJ.

Try and aim for Counterargument up.
And bearing false witness is not good.

August 5, 2013 at 12:49 pm#370091

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 05 2013,02:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2013,03:35)

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Why play the caps game?

You say Jesus is “a god” like the JWs.

You worship god the Father and “a god” the Son.

That is Mystery Babylon!

Not true. I don't believe that.
Get your facts straight before trying to defer your Babylonian roots by making out that they apply to me instead.

When you get the facts straight, then go from there.

Really t8?

These are your own words…

Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49)

Actually I believe that Jesus is theos/god.

How do you deny this?

Why are you falsely accusing me?

August 5, 2013 at 10:44 pm#370090

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,02:49)

Really t8?

These are your own words…

Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49)
Actually I believe that Jesus is theos/god.

How do you deny this?

Why are you falsely accusing me?

Quite simple WJ. Please understand it this time or remain silent as that is better than false statements.

Listen carefully.

There is no indefinite article in Greek. Theos is usually used to identify when the definite article is used and qualify when it is not used.

Jesus said to them, 'ye are theos'. He did not say to anyone of them, 'you are a god'. If the Judges were theos, and the Pharisees held the seat of Moses, then they qualify as 'theos'. But that doesn't mean that Nicodemus was a god.

You imply that I am saying the latter, but I do not say that. Instead, I acknowledge the truth that Jesus said 'ye are gods'. But I do not then take that and use the indefinite article which doesn't exist in Greek and say that Nicodemus was a god for example.

You already infringe the first commandment that there is one God and he is the Father. Do not add another one by bearing false witness too.

If you cannot understand it, then talk about something you can understand lest you speak falsely again.

I have made this position clear I don't know how many times before to you. Get it or leave it. You would do well to take this advice.

August 6, 2013 at 2:07 am#370089

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 06 2013,02:49)

There is no indefinite article in Greek. Theos is usually used to identify when the definite article is used and qualify when it is not used.

There are no capital letters in Greek either.

So forget the “indefinite article”, (which is merely a smoke screen or a logical fallacie since the word “theos” refers to God the Father many times in scripture without the definite article).

OK. You said…

Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49)

Actually I believe that Jesus is theos/god.

So according to your statement you believe…

Jesus is theos/god.

And you believe….

the Father is theos/god. (Remember there are no capital letters in the Greek.)

Therefore you serve and worship the Father who you say is theos/god, and you serve and worship Jesus who you say is theos/god.

Since you don't believe they are “one theos/god” then that means you serve and worship 2 theos/gods.

August 6, 2013 at 2:12 am#370086

Participant

Good post Keith, not to mention the many times that the definite article IS used with theos in regards to the Son. I think t8 forgets that fact. He can't say he hasn't been shown over and over.

August 6, 2013 at 2:15 am#370087

2besee

Participant

Quote (2besee @ Aug. 04 2013,14:55)

WJ,

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?

God is not a man.

Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.

Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”

James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.

God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.

Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?

There is only one God.

Bump for WJ.

August 6, 2013 at 2:29 am#370088

http://biblehub.com/1_john/1-1.htm

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,18:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2013,00:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2013,12:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,21:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2013,21:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14)

Hey t

What in my statement about t8 is untrue?

You are showing your bias also!

Quote

You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son.

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,

If yes, then what Keith said is true about what you believe.

Kathi

their are many other mighty ones (gods) what I believe exist does that make me polygamist in my believe in one god I do not think so

Pierre,
You deny that the eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning was indeed an eternal life and that leads to your false doctrine, imo.

I believe that the 'Word of the LORD' was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning.

Kathi

what you believe is a personal view on what the scriptures do not support ,

MT 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”

MT 19:29 “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

RO 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

were does it say that :THE WORD OF GOD ” is the ETERNAL LIFE

please quote your scriptures

Pierre,
You say that is my personal view that the Son was the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning…well, yes, my personal view and also the view of Christians worldwide.

You ask for scriptures to support this before but here goes again:

1 John 1
The Incarnation of the Word of Life

1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

If you don't think the Word of Life is the Son, please enlighten Christendom with your personal insight.

Now if you still think that it is my opinion alone, I invite you to read these commentaries on the subject. Who do they think is the Word of Life in John 1, Pierre???

August 6, 2013 at 3:34 am#370085