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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2013,15:10) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,12:42) Jesus was a priest in the same order as Melchizadek not a God in the same order as Melchizadek. You are just trying to cause confusion, Mike.
Jesus IS a priest of God in the order of Melchizadek, Kathi.If the later priest can BE the Godhead, then why not the earlier priest, in whose order Jesus serves?
I think the “confusion” begins when people make the asinine claim that a priest OF God/Godhead can BE the very God/Godhead he is the priest OF.
Mike,
Jesus isn't a theos because He is a priest. Your implication that being a priest in the order of Melchizedek means you are a theos in the Godhead baffles me how you made that leap. Jesus is a theos because that is His nature.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 03 2013,15:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,12:40) Also, 2 Peter 1:1 cannot faithfully be translated in two ways.
Sure it can.Are you ready to post your second scripture? Or are you ready to admit that your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1 is ALL YOU HAVE in the way of pretending that Peter confused Jesus with “God”?
Mike,
Peter called Jesus 'our God and Savior' but he didn't call Him God the Father. Peter isn't confused, you are though to even suggest that Peter confused Jesus with “God, the Father.” In one post you show that Peter also calls the Father “God” and in this recent post you seem to forget that. Peter calls two different persons 'God.'Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,12:52) Mike,
2 Peter 1:1 and 2 Peter 1:13 are both grammatically phrased the same way.
2 Peter 1:1
http://interlinearbible.org/2_peter/1-1.htm
2 Peter 1:11
http://interlinearbible.org/2_peter/1-11.htmLet Peter be Peter…you don't have to interfere and twist what he wrote as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
You know and admit that Jesus is a theos and you know and admit that He is a Kyrios. The thing you deny is that He is your theos. What does Peter say…”Jesus is our Son” or “Jesus is our God and Savior?”
Good Point!He also says he is deity yet claims there is “Only One True God”.
He He!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,12:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2013,06:15) Quote (Lightenup @ July 21 2013,23:10) Mike,
you said:Quote So yes, Jesus is the savior that my God Jehovah SENT into the world. But no, he is not my God. Only the Father holds that position for me. Can you admit that Peter calls the Son 'our God and Savior, Jesus Christ' in this verse:
2 Peter 1:1 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.
Right on Kathi!This is not the only place Jesus is referred to as our God.
The NET Bible
The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives.
From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1
This is what more than 25 scholars says about it….
5tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4. Source
Blessings!
WJ
Thanks Keith…welcome back and I hope you are having a happy birthday!
Thanks Kathi!Blessings!
WJ
WJ,
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?
God is not a man.
Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.
Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”
James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.
God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.
Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?
There is only one God.
Hi 2Besee,
Can you at least make the print a little larger when you use that small squiggly font.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14) Hey t What in my statement about t8 is untrue?
You are showing your bias also!
WJ
WJQuote You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son. THIS IS UNTRUE ;we believe in one God but we believe that Christ the “word of God” is a mighty one (god) scriptures are saying this ;LK 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 03 2013,20:04) Hi 2Besee, Can you at least make the print a little larger when you use that small squiggly font.
I second that motion.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,15:04) Mike,
Jesus isn't a theos because He is a priest. Your implication that being a priest in the order of Melchizedek means you are a theos in the Godhead baffles me how you made that leap. Jesus is a theos because that is His nature.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, Kathi.This is what I'm saying: Mel is/was a priest OF God/Godhead……… so he can't possibly BE the God/Godhead he is the priest OF.
Jesus IS a priest OF God/Godhead, in the order of that first priest Mel…………. so he can't possibly BE the God/Godhead he is the priest OF.
Do you agree with this?
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2013,21:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 03 2013,21:14) Hey t What in my statement about t8 is untrue?
You are showing your bias also!
WJ
WJQuote You should tell the whole story. You believe in one god the Father and one god the son. THIS IS UNTRUE ;we believe in one God but we believe that Christ the “word of God” is a mighty one (god) scriptures are saying this ;LK 24:19 And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.this does not eliminate the fact that their is only one true God Jehovah ,the father of his own son that is also a mighty god but created but his father is not created but his the creator ,
Pierre,
You said that it is untrue that you believe in one god the Father and one god the son and then you point out that you believe that there is one God and one god. Isn't your one God…the Father? Is your one god…the Son?If yes, then what Keith said is true about what you believe.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,15:20) Mike,
Peter called Jesus 'our God and Savior' but he didn't call Him God the Father.Peter calls two different persons 'God.'
No Kathi,Peter spoke about “God”, AND “our Savior Jesus Christ”. He spoke about BOTH of these people in 2 Peter 1:1, and then he spoke about BOTH of these people again in 2 Peter 1:2.
But because of some “legal loophole”, you jump at the chance to PRETEND that Jesus is the “god” Peter mentioned in 1:1, and you grasp on to that gnat for dear life – all the while swallowing the camel (the REST of the words Peter said/wrote).
But these following things will help clear up the truth:
1. Even IF Peter called Jesus “theos” in 1:1, does it automatically mean Peter thought Jesus was the MOST HIGH theos?
2. Do you, or do you not, have any other writings or sayings from Peter you can use to SUPPORT your original claim that Peter believes Jesus is the MOST HIGH theos?
I already know the answer, Kathi. And I'm quite sure that both you and Keith also know the answer. Which is why you will likely never leave this ONE verse, in which Peter COULD BE calling Jesus a theos, or he COULD BE talking about his theos Jehovah AND his savior Jesus Christ. So let's just cut to the chase and all admit that there are NO other words from Peter in the entire scriptures that can even remotely be misconstrued into a claim that he thought Jesus was the Most High God.
Let's either admit this fact, or else please list your next scripture.
Failure to list another scripture will mean that this “Peter” discussion is over, and that you guys realize there are dozens of scriptures where Peter clearly displays the DIFFERENCE between his God Jehovah, and his Lord Jesus Christ – versus only this ONE little scripture, which has to be translated in a biased way in order to support YOUR claim.
Now………. are we ready to start this all over with Paul? Go ahead, hit us with Titus 2:13.
Quote (2besee @ Aug. 03 2013,20:55) WJ, Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?
God is not a man.
Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.
Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”
James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.
God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.
Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?
There is only one God.
We know that Jesus did not lie or need to repent either. It seems the message is more about the character of God than His form. The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc. Their character is unchanging.Yahweh our Righteousness's character is unchanging, no matter the form.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2013,11:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2013,15:20) Mike,
Peter called Jesus 'our God and Savior' but he didn't call Him God the Father.Peter calls two different persons 'God.'
No Kathi,Peter spoke about “God”, AND “our Savior Jesus Christ”. He spoke about BOTH of these people in 2 Peter 1:1, and then he spoke about BOTH of these people again in 2 Peter 1:2.
But because of some “legal loophole”, you jump at the chance to PRETEND that Jesus is the “god” Peter mentioned in 1:1, and you grasp on to that gnat for dear life – all the while swallowing the camel (the REST of the words Peter said/wrote).
But these following things will help clear up the truth:
1. Even IF Peter called Jesus “theos” in 1:1, does it automatically mean Peter thought Jesus was the MOST HIGH theos?
2. Do you, or do you not, have any other writings or sayings from Peter you can use to SUPPORT your original claim that Peter believes Jesus is the MOST HIGH theos?
I already know the answer, Kathi. And I'm quite sure that both you and Keith also know the answer. Which is why you will likely never leave this ONE verse, in which Peter COULD BE calling Jesus a theos, or he COULD BE talking about his theos Jehovah AND his savior Jesus Christ. So let's just cut to the chase and all admit that there are NO other words from Peter in the entire scriptures that can even remotely be misconstrued into a claim that he thought Jesus was the Most High God.
Let's either admit this fact, or else please list your next scripture.
Failure to list another scripture will mean that this “Peter” discussion is over, and that you guys realize there are dozens of scriptures where Peter clearly displays the DIFFERENCE between his God Jehovah, and his Lord Jesus Christ – versus only this ONE little scripture, which has to be translated in a biased way in order to support YOUR claim.
Now………. are we ready to start this all over with Paul? Go ahead, hit us with Titus 2:13.
Mike,
How do you translate 2 Peter 1:11 then?So I see we ARE going to stay focused only on that one verse, since you realize there are no others?
Kathi, this is from NETNotes:
tc A few mss (א Ψ pc vgmss syph sa) read κυρίου (kuriou, “Lord”) for θεοῦ (qeou, “God”) in v. 1, perhaps due to confusion of letters (since both words were nomina sacra), or perhaps because “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ” is an unusual expression…………I just wanted you to realize that your beloved Peshitta is one of the mss that has “the righteousness of our Lord and our Redeemer Jeshu Meshiha.”
Also notice how, even though it says “Lord” and not “God”, it is translated in a way that makes it clear Peter is talking about TWO persons. (Note the second use of “our”.)
I will look at my Greek Interlinear at home before addressing your question about 1:11.
Mike,
By focusing on 1 Peter 1 that does not mean that I am admitting anything about other verses. I am just not letting you declare it to be translated wrong and get away with it. I have not even looked for another verse from Peter in this regards.Also, the second use of 'our' does not mean two referrants, it is just emphasizing that one referrant is both our 'this' AND our 'that.'
“Our Lord” – according to your Peshitta, right?
So now what, Kathi?
Also, I haven't “declared it to be translated wrong” at all.
I gave each of us half a point for this verse, since it CAN faithfully be translated two different ways. (Well three ways now, since we have that Peshitta information to add to the balance, right?)
So take your half a point, and go look for another scripture. I've already gained a full point lead over you with Matthew 16:16, right? It's time for you to play catch-up.
Oh, and I'll quickly throw in 2 Peter 1:2, where it is clear that Peter knows the difference between “God” and “Jesus our Lord”.
So now you're two full points behind. Better hurry up before you get buried.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 04 2013,08:04) Quote (2besee @ Aug. 03 2013,20:55) WJ, Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor the son of man, that he should repent. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not make it good?
God is not a man.
Before you say that that was BEFORE He became a man – That cannot be, because God does not change.
Malachi 3:6 “I, Yahweh, do not change…..”
James 1:17 Every best gift, and every perfect gift, is from above, coming down from the Father of lights……with whom there is no change, nor shadow of alteration.
God is not a man, nor the Son of man. And God does not CHANGE.
Jesus is called “a man”, and the son of man.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
So, if God does not change, and is not a man nor the son of man — How could you say that God changed and became a man?
There is only one God.
We know that Jesus did not lie or need to repent either. It seems the message is more about the character of God than His form. The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc. Their character is unchanging.Yahweh our Righteousness's character is unchanging, no matter the form.
Hi LU,(Quote)
The Father and Son are perfect and sinless, full of truth and loving, etc.2Cor.5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He Made Him who knew no sin *To be sin* on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
21He Made Him who knew no sin *To be sin* on our behalf,
Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time *Without sin* unto salvation.
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time *Without sin* unto salvation.
Ps.51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Peace sister……..
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