Who is this Jesus?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,11:55)

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,10:34) Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,10:21) Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,10:01) Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,09:30) Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,00:33) Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42) Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55) Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11) Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55) Kerwin T, Can you be more clear? k k I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy   T, Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about? K Quote Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it. this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit T, God is the well and the water therein is God's righteousness and holiness. The Spirit is the bucket. Jesus is the crank and rope. In this way Jesus is the way to the source. The man who drinks of the water reflects it. Jesus is the weak and thirsty workman who drank from the bucket before he was able to set up the crank and rope. KERWIN Quote God is the well and the water therein is God's righteousness and holiness. The Spirit is the bucket. Jesus is the crank and rope. In this way Jesus is the way to the source. The man who drinks of the water reflects it. Jesus is the weak and thirsty workman who drank from the bucket before he was able to set up the crank and rope. this still a allegory ,so could you make in clear water ,i mean simple scriptural words T, Scripture use allegories and I have learned to use them as well.   God is the source of true righteousness and holiness. Jesus is the image of true righteousness and holiness. Jesus is the way to be like God in true righteousness and holiness for those that hunger and thirst for it. kerwin this is still in an allegorical way ;let see if I can help you in this , Quote 1) God is the source of true righteousness and holiness. 2)Jesus is the image of true righteousness and holiness. 3)Jesus is the way to be like God in true righteousness and holiness for those that hunger and thirst for it. 1) God is the source of all true knowledge ;RIGHTEOUSNESS CAN NOT BE TAKEN BUT UNDERSTAND AND APPLIED ,FOR IT IS BASED ON GODLY KNOWLEDGE ,THE FINAL RESULT OF THIS IS HOLINESS,(PERFECTION) 2)BEING AN IMAGE OF SOMETHING INVISIBLE WOULD MAKE AN INVISIBLE IMAGE NO YES     so again Christ is the transmitter of the true knowledge that leads to number 1 section but he is also the practical example into execute it  and so he his our perfect model to follow to the pad of God his father ,  3)SO SINS WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST AND BELIEVE IN HIM ,MEANING IS FORWARDED KNOWLEDGE OF GOD HIS FATHER ;BUT WE KNOW ONLY THOSE THAT ARE HUNGRY FOR BECOMING RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY ARE ATRACTED TO HIM AND GOD'S KNOWLEDGE IN THE SCRIPTURES IS THIS WHAT YOU TRY TO SAY TO ME T, Sounds correct.

KERWIN

I am glad we have now reach an mutual understanding

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ July 15 2013,19:36)

If Paul or any disclpe wanted us to believe that angels are Gods they would have said so in the new testament, but they didn't.

1 Corinthians 8:5
For even if there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords)

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel……..

“As indeed there ARE many gods, both in heaven and on earth”?  “The god of this age”?  How many times does Paul have to say it before you believe it?

Quote (4Thomas @ July 15 2013,19:36)

1.  the Father is God of Gods but there is only one God 2.  the Son is Lord of Lords But there is only one lord

Let's throw our God-given common sense out the window for a minute, and assume that one could be the lord of lords while simultaneously being the ONLY lord.  Even without using our common sense, we have these scriptures:

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly lords with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly lords in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

If Paul was speaking LITERALLY when he said that for us there is but one lord, then the Father and God OF Christ is NOT our lord, is He?  Because how can the Father be “the Lord of heaven and earth”, as Jesus called Him, if the Son is LITERALLY our ONLY lord?  And how could slaves be instructed to obey their earthly lords if Jesus was LITERALLY their ONLY lord?

And don't Trinitarians also consider the Holy Spirit to be their lord?  These are excerpts from the Creed of 381:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty………

And in one Lord Jesus Christ………..

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life…….

Hmmmmm……………..  

So it is not only common sense that tells us “lord of lords” INSISTS on there being MORE THAN ONE lord, but it's also scripturally proven that Jesus is not LITERALLY our ONLY lord.  Why then would anyone believe there could exist a god OF gods without there existing MORE THAN ONE god?

Daniel, there are many things you said in this post that I'm chomping at the bit to address……… but I don't want to get sidetracked and start going all over the place again.  Instead, I will add to Psalm 8:5 another scripture where angels are called gods………..

Deuteronomy 32:17 King James Version
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

What is a “devil”, or “demon” in your opinion, Daniel?  I believe they are the angels who chose to rebel against Jehovah by following Satan instead.  Would you agree with that?

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
Should we have a debate that humans are angels or gods or lords?  Notice your translation uses *earthly* Lords most translations use masters.  

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly lords in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Angels are angels and humans are humans, yes things or beings that try and take the place of God can be called god. People worship people and things as god all the time. Just because *many* treat satan as their God doesn't mean he is true God. Ofcourse he is their true God [to them] but that doesn't mean he is true God by nature, this is the **key**.

Satan is a angel, this is what he is, he mayhbe a god to people who worship him for this **LIMITED** time on earth but this doesn't mean he will be God when all things are made new.

Lets be clear, after the end of the world the final great throne judgement how many gods will there be?

see this is about what Jesus is, the saviour the creator, the one who came to earth in the Old testament who revealed himself as yahweh to Moses and called himself the Almightly

Can you see the BIG difference YET?

WHY is the BIG difference so IMPORTANT, is it becuase Jesus said we would die in our sins if we didn't believe *what* he is.

Ofcourse it is, for the sake of our salvation he CLEARLY revealed that it was he, Yahweh that talked to Moses, mouth to mouth face to face as a man speaks to his friends and moses sees his form etc etc etc AND ALSO call himself the Almighty.
Is Michael or gabriel ever called the Almighty or THE Lord of GLORY or the Lord of Lords. No they are just arch angels PRINCES, thats it mike, A HUGE Difference.
Now if the arch angels are just prince/arch angels, in heaven should we call them God. Should we call each other Gods in heaven?
Doubting Thomas, who seen the alpha and the omega the first and the last who was dead and now alive from the dead.
What did Thomas call Jesus.
Was it not the God of him and the Lord of Him.

28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Lets not blur things and keep them to “what” Jesus is, yes people even call cows cats sacred and gods but lets look at what things are by NATURE and essence.

Is Jesus the same nature as his Father Yes/NO

Are you the same nature as your Father?

What is Jesus called the “one and only” Son, the radiance and very substance of the Fathers Glory?

Mike, Jesus is the Lord of lords NOT the prince of lords or the King of Lords. Jesus is the Lord of Lords BECAUSE he is THE Lord by nature, true God from true God, one by deriving his essence and nature FROM and OF the Father *alone*.

The Holy Spirit is the “one” spirit, yes he is true God and true Lord.
What paul is trying to clearly do is reveal where Yahweh is called the Lord God in scripture to show how the Son and Father are both Lord and God but not the same person like the oneness believers believe.

Life in the son and the free gift of slavation, he is the one and only way to the Father. Take care.
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Hi Daniel,

I read your post, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my last question:  Do you agree that demons are fallen angels?

And if so, then do you agree that Deuteronomy 32:17 also refers to angels as gods?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,10:39)

Hi Daniel, I read your post, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my last question:  Do you agree that demons are fallen angels? And if so, then do you agree that Deuteronomy 32:17 also refers to angels as gods?

Hi Mike,
I believe fallen angels are demons. Yes people can make demons gods just like they can make other beings and objects gods, even some people think cats and cows are sacred and gods, so what.

Notice in all the translations these false gods are gods that recently appeared, ofcourse for those that treat these beings and objects as gods they believe them as true god, as for me they are demons and fallen angels

New International Version (©2011)
They sacrificed to false gods, which are not God– gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your ancestors did not fear.

New Living Translation (©2007)
They offered sacrifices to demons, which are not God, to gods they had not known before, to new gods only recently arrived, to gods their ancestors had never feared.

English Standard Version (©2001)
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

Mike we must also realise that both greek and Hebrew have limiattions with there languages, eg the same word in greek is used for both cousins and brothers.
The same word in hebrew is used for angels and messager humans. So the old testament hebrew writer probably didn't think writing the following sounded to good.

He made them a little lower than the messanagers. maybe this is why things in the old testament where fixed in the greek revision and made clear that the reference was to angels and not God. We know that humans can be referred to as god also but this doesn't make them gods and lords but lets stick to what each being *really* is.

Life in the son and in his name
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,
I have been praying about these things and the holy Spirit came to me with the following examples, they are EXTREME Common sense and I truly believe this will settle things once and for all.

Should we call Satan or Beelzebub our God or Lord? No way yet doubting Thomas calls Jesus both his Lord and his God. This is explicit and a revelation to someone doubting and this is why these things are written.

Now let’s clarify things so we can see what Lord Beelzebub is. Please read this carefully.

1: Beelzebub, who is Satan or otherwise “one of” the top three Demons. What lord is he?
We know the name Beelzebub in scripture means the Lord of the flies. So he is the lord not of the disciples and not of doubting Thomas but the Lord of the Flies .

Q: Does this mean he is a true “Fly” or an insect?

2: We know flies are insects which fly in the air and we also know that honey bees are insects which also fly in the air

Q: Does this make honey bees “flies”, should we call them flies?

See angels are called angels because of their purpose as messengers, honey bees also fly around and have that purpose of flying but we don’t go around blurring things and teaching that we should call all insects “flies because they can fly. Do you understand what I’m getting at?  

>> See angels are angels their name is given by their purpose as messengers, yes they a spirit, BUT we humans have a spirit too and we can also be messengers. Also the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are also spirit and can also give humans messengers. This doesn’t mean we should start calling them angels? Here is the point and fact in number 3: below

3: Humans are also flesh and animals just like Apes and Monkeys and all those other animals of flesh that evolutionist try and say we come from.
Q: Should we say that Apes are humans because they are animals and flesh like us?

No way this is What Satan wants, he wants to blur the simple and blind people to the explicit simple truth that humans are far above Apes and moneys.
Satan also wants to blur and blind people to the truth that Jesus is far above Michael and Gabriel. Satan wants us to think Jesus is just like him an arch angel.

See Jesus isn’t just like an arch angel, Jesus is the creator who hands created the heavens whose hands laid the foundation of the earth.
Jesus is like Eve and the Father like Adam when comparing to humans [in Gods image].  Eve isn’t a monkey or an Ape, even though she is flesh and an animal, she is far above them she is a human AND equal in humanity to Adam but less in authority to Adam.
Eve who was FROM and OF ADAM by nature true human. So Jesus who is OF and FROM the Father is by nature true God, this is why he IS the true “one and only” Son he ALONE derives his nature solely and directly FROM and OF the Father alone.
Without the eternal Son the Father isn’t an eternal Father and he certainly isn’t eternally Almighty without a testament of his Almighty power is he.
See the Father is eternally Father AND eternally ALMIGHTY he eternally displayed his awesome and eternal Almighty power of being able to generate that which is eternally Almighty, that is his beloved Son [his Word] who came down from heaven took flesh and died for our sins and who is raised again to the Glory he also had with his source and Father.

All this stuff I honestly believe is common sense that can’t be debated. I have tried my best but can’t debate against the basic and simple truth of these basics.
I understand that if you were born and also raised in a family who taught that Jesus was an angel or an arch angel you might not initially see what I’m trying to say
I honestly believe you should see this now and I pray that you will accept Jesus as YOUR true lord and God like Thomas did.
I have no fear to face Jesus on judgement day and call him my true Lord and God, I have no fear to hold his beautiful feet and worship him just like the disciples did, just like scripture teaches. I also know that what I believe isn't because of anyone else as I wasn't raised as any faith and looked at all options and studied scripture alone to make up my mind who and what jesus is.

See Jesus isn’t just any Lord, if he was it wouldn’t require the Holy Spirit to enable us to say Jesus is Lord.
He’s not a prince Lord but the Lord of Lords and the Lord of Glory and the expressed image and substance of the glorious Father the Almighty.

Love and Life in the Son and in his name
There is no condemnation in the Son, he is the “one and only” way to the Father. Take care

Daniel

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2013,19:44)

Kathi, You can accept that Jehovah's servant Jesus Christ has the very same God that we all have….. or you can deny it. Which is it, Kathi? Do you accept this or deny this?   Kathi, scripture says some of us will become sons of the Most High God, and brothers of Jesus.  Do you accept this?  Or do imagine you will become a SISTER of the Most High God?

Mike,
you asked:

Quote

You can accept that Jehovah's servant Jesus Christ has the very same God that we all have….. or you can deny it. Which is it, Kathi? Do you accept this or deny this?

I have never denied that…I have two who are Jehovah, the Father and the Son (our God and Savior, Jesus Christ), remember? more later…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ July 17 2013,18:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2013,10:39) Hi Daniel, I read your post, but I'm still waiting for an answer to my last question:  Do you agree that demons are fallen angels? And if so, then do you agree that Deuteronomy 32:17 also refers to angels as gods? Hi Mike, I believe fallen angels are demons.

Okay, then we agree that angels are called gods in scripture.  Do you know what that means, Daniel?  We have finally gotten CLOSURE on one of our disagreements!  That is a good thing!  

Next up:

Quote (4Thomas @ July 17 2013,18:36)

Notice in all the translations these false gods are gods that recently appeared

Which scripture tells us they are “false” gods?  (Hint:  There isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that speaks of any “false god” or “so-called god”.  These phrases were ADDED to the scriptures by men, and are NOT in the original texts.)

What is a god, Daniel?  Webster's dictionary defines it as:
Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.

I agree with this definition, Daniel.  And it fits with the scriptures.  How about you?  Do you also agree with it?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ July 18 2013,01:01)

Jesus is like Eve and the Father like Adam when comparing to humans [in Gods image].

The answer to all three of your questions is “NO”.

I agree with the statement in the quote box above.  Just as Eve came FROM Adam, Jesus also came FROM God.  And just as Adam existed BEFORE Eve, God also existed BEFORE Jesus.

Daniel, I'm not ignoring your posts.  I seriously can't wait to discuss “unless you believe I am he, you will die in your sins”.  I can't wait to discuss your claim that Jesus created things.  But I don't want to be all over the place like we were in the beginning of this discussion.  It's too hard to ever get CLOSURE on any one point when we're bouncing all over with 100 different points at once.  And CLOSURE, one point at a time, is the ONLY way we are ever going to see who's right about all of this.

Right now, we have to get CLOSURE on the plain and simple FACT that there are many gods, both in heaven and on earth, and Jehovah is the god OF all those other gods.  We must come to a SCRIPTURAL agreement that Jehovah is the MOST HIGH god of the MANY gods in existence.

So don't think I'm ignoring your posts.  I'm not.  I'm just moving those other discussion areas back a little until we can come to closure that there do in fact exist many gods, just like the scriptures clearly teach.

[david]

Quote

Which scripture tells us they are “false” gods? (Hint: There isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that speaks of any “false god” or “so-called god”. These phrases were ADDED to the scriptures by men, and are NOT in the original texts.)

Could you expand on this.

I've been thinking about the “false god” thing. I think most everyone sees it wrong and I think this is because they define god as: “the one we should worship.”

But god means “might one.”

So, understanding that, a god of wood or stone for example, while viewed as having power or might in the eyes of the worshiper, isn't a god at all. It is a false god.

But satan for example, he is a might one. The bible says he has power over the entire world. He is truly mighty and therefore truly a god.

We can say he is a false god just because he isn't the “true god,” but at is a weird way of thinking. Jehovah isn't called the only true god because he is the only mighty one. He is called the only true god because COMPARED to all others, he is the only mighty one.

Priest sand angels were called gods and rightly so, they were mighty compared to others. They weren't false (fake) mighty ones, but were truly mighty.

Similarly with satan. He is a god, the god of this system of things. He is mighty.

It's really hard not to label satan a false god because everyone thinks of the word god as “one we worship” or so,etching like that. But that's not what the word means.

[david]

Sorry, just noticed this was for mike and Thomas.
Mike, delete my comments.

[mikeboll64]

I've been saying that “elohim” and “theos” just mean “mighty one” for years on this site, David. It almost always seems to fall on deaf ears – despite the fact that EVERY concordance and EVERY dictionary and EVERY scholar agrees that “might (-y one)” is the original and basic meaning of “el”.

I disagree that an idol is a “false god”. If it is not a god at all, then it is not a god at all – “true” OR “false”.

[david]

Ya I know. I've been struggling with the same idea. Is a fake god a false god?

All JW for example know that god means “mighty one, powerful one” but they still believe satan is a false god, and yet, they would also say he is quite powerful (mighty)

It's because 99% of the time that we refer to god it is to Jehovah, so we have all these ideas about what god means despite what it actually means.

If an idol although having ears cannot hear and a mouth, but cannot speak, is considered a god, a mighty one, but is really powerless, (not a god), AND YET considered a god, is it a false god?

Of course, it certainly in reality is no god at all. I think perhaps, despite the definition and despite the fact that mighty one is what god has to mean if you consider every scripture, people have invented a new idea of god and it centres around worship. Anything that shouldn't be worshipped but is, is considered a false god.

[david]

Quote

Which scripture tells us they are “false” gods? (Hint: There isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that speaks of any “false god” or “so-called god”. These phrases were ADDED to the scriptures by men, and are NOT in the original texts.)

I still find this unbelievable. But it certainly would add to the idea that there are no false gods, only “no gods,” and gods.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ July 20 2013,21:29)

It's because 99% of the time that we refer to god it is to Jehovah, so we have all these ideas about what god means despite what it actually means.

Agreed.  In another thread, Ed has just defined “god” for me.  His definition?  “Creator and Ruler of the Universe”.

I have listed some scriptures for him where “god” could not possibly mean this thing.  I have also pointed out for him that if “god”, in and of itself, meant such a thing, then there would be no scriptures explaining that only ONE god, named YHWH, created the universe.  That fact wouldn't have to be explained if the word “god” already MEANT “creator of the universe”.

I'm anxious to see how he will respond to those points.

So you are 100% correct that the generally accepted meaning of “god” in the 21st century isn't even close to what the word actually meant in the Bible.  Of course, if one were to just READ the Bible, they'd be able to see this right off the bat.  But some “grandfathered in” teachings are hard to undo once they've been cemented in our minds, I guess.

Quote (david @ July 20 2013,21:29)

If an idol although having ears cannot hear and a mouth, but cannot speak, is considered a god, a mighty one, but is really powerless, (not a god), AND YET considered a god, is it a false god?

Good point.  But then again, it is only a god to those who have made it their god, right?  So for people like you and me, who know it is NOT really a god, what is the correct rebuttal?  Perhaps YOU would say, “It is a false god.”  I personally would say, “It is no god at all.”

I do see your point, however.  I guess the main thing I'm trying to get Daniel to see is that not all “gods of the nations” were just man made idols.  For example, the gods of Egypt turned wooden staffs into living snakes, water into blood, and were able to produce frogs out of thin air.  These are all things that man can't even do – let along man made idols.  So the gods of Egypt had to be real living beings who were mighty, and who had ” special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature”………….. just like Webster defined them.

This explains how Jehovah is able to say He “punished”, or “brought judgment against” the gods of Egypt.  Those statements would make no sense if man made idols were the referents.

Webster's definition also explains the things Satan did in the first and second chapters of Job.  In chapter one alone, Satan commanded powerful winds, fire from heaven, Sabeans and Chaldeans.  If that doesn't demonstrate that he is a REAL god, then what does?

And how about 2 Kings 3?  The chapter depicts a time that Jehovah brought a great victory to the Israelites.  But read verse 27 closely………..

Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The wrath against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.

This verse explains how the King of Moab sacrificed his own son to (presumably) his own god Chemosh.  So who then brought wrath down upon the Israelites, sending them fleeing for their own tents?  Surely Jehovah didn't accept a human sacrifice, and send wrath upon His own people that He just led to victory, right?  So it was most obviously a wrath brought by Chemosh – much like the wrath the god of Ekron (Satan) was allowed to bring on Job.

So can a “false god” bring wrath upon human beings?  Can a “man made idol” do such a thing?

(There is also apparently some evidence the Chemosh was mentioned in that verse by name in the oldest mss……. but was later removed.)

Anyway, these are all SCRIPTURAL teachings.  So why do men today IGNORE these clear truths, and opt instead to invent THEIR OWN scriptural truth that involves only ONE god, period?

I know part of it comes from the Trinitarians.  Since they know Jesus IS called a god in scripture, and they WANT him to be the very God he is the Son of, they've taught people that there is LITERALLY only ONE god in existence.  In that way, Jesus has no choice but to BE that ONE god, right?  But this is far from what the scripture actually teach.

David, I'm sure you understand that Jehovah could not possibly be the god OF gods if there existed no other gods for Him to be the god OF.  And Jehovah couldn't possibly be the Most High god if there existed no less high gods.

These are some of the common sense things I aim to show my friend Daniel in this discussion.

Your input is welcomed by me.  But if Daniel objects, then you'll have to hit the road.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ July 20 2013,21:32)

Quote Which scripture tells us they are “false” gods?  (Hint:  There isn't a single scripture in the entire Bible that speaks of any “false god” or “so-called god”.  These phrases were ADDED to the scriptures by men, and are NOT in the original texts.) I still find this unbelievable.  But it certainly would add to the idea that there are no false gods, only “no gods,” and gods.

You can believe it. I've searched every instance of “false god” and “so-called god” in the scriptures. Then I looked at the Hebrew or Greek words of those texts, and found that NONE of those texts really say anything about “false” or “so-called” gods.

[david]

Hi mike. In the latter half of your post, you say many things I hadn't considered and that I now have to research. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle of weeks of research on other topics and I don't want to stray from that research.

[mikeboll64]

Scriptural topics? Well good for you, David.

Okay, take care.

[mikeboll64]

Yes, I know that you worship both the Master and His servant. I worship only the Master, because that is what the servant told me to do.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Can you call that Servant your God and Savior, Jesus Christ? Or do you deny that He is our God and Savior, Jesus Christ?

[Author]

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