Who is this Jesus?

Blocked

Kathi,

You can accept that Jehovah's servant Jesus Christ has the very same God that we all have….. or you can deny it.

Which is it, Kathi?
Do you accept this or deny this?

Kathi, scripture says some of us will become sons of the Most High God, and brothers of Jesus. Do you accept this? Or do imagine you will become a SISTER of the Most High God?

July 10, 2013 at 12:55 am#350351

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ July 08 2013,00:24)

Sure there are some translation that INCORRECTLY use the word Angels for the word GOD but these are wrong.

Hebrews 2
6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.”

This is a direct quote of Psalm 8:5, Daniel. How did this inspired writer of scripture end up with the plural “angels”, if the original psalm referred to God alone?

The word “elohim”, that David originally wrote in Psalm 8:5, either means “gods” or “God”. And since we know “God” wouldn't translate into “angels” in Heb 2:7, what other option is there but “gods”?

Your thoughts?

July 10, 2013 at 11:27 pm#370613

Participant

LU,

Quote

First we are speaking of rank and wealth and not kind and the claim Jesus is 100% man and 100% God is speaking of kind.

You have a man who has given up access to his wealth but not his rank who because of his apparent lack of wealth some do not believe is wealthy. The truth is he is 100% a prince but not 100% a pauper.

Quote

You also Kerwin cannot believe that the Prince of Heaven had become a man.

I believe God's Word was made flesh and a man became the Prince of Heaven.

Quote

2 Peter 1 1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

So interpret the Scripture according to who Jehovah is and not according to a doctrine that conflicts with itself.

Quote

There you go, Kerwin. You can accept that Jesus Christ is Jehovah our Righteousness, our God and Savior or you can deny this.

Jesus and Joshua are both the Jehovah is Salvation and Joseph is God will increase. In a like manner Jehovah is our righteousness.

July 12, 2013 at 6:47 am#350580

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2013,11:55)

Quote (4Thomas @ July 08 2013,00:24)

Sure there are some translation that INCORRECTLY use the word Angels for the word GOD but these are wrong.

Hebrews 2
6 But there is a place where someone has testified:

This is a direct quote of Psalm 8:5, Daniel. How did this inspired writer of scripture end up with the plural “angels”, if the original psalm referred to God alone?

Your thoughts?

Hi Mike,
Thanks for your patience, I've got a major project i'm doing, which will take a long time so I wont be on here that often.

I leave scripture as is and never try and change its explicit meaning, I believe every small detail is there for a reason.
So regarding the change – my thoughts are that man is the apple of Gods eye and that man is even above the angels in the respect of many things. I believe Psalms is teaching about man where Hebrews is teaching about “the Word” made flesh and his sacrafice of what he become for us.

1) Psalm 8:5 is related directly to man, hence I believe man in created to be greater than the Angels, I looked into this and was amazed to see many scriptures that support this.

2) Hebrews 2:7 is related to Christ, not only being sent like an angel/messanger but also to suffer and die.

Thought on 1)Psalm 8:5 man being greatere than the angels are.

1: Who judges angels?
1 Corinthians 6:
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

2: Who is created in Gods image? Angels are just spirit alone but man is tri-being and wholly spirit, flesh and soul.

3: Did “The Word” [the one and only Son] become man or an angel?
Hebrews2
14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like them,k fully human in every way

4: Who was redeemed by Christ? The fallen angels or man? As above it wasn't the angels but the descendants of Abraham.

5: Who shares in Christ glory and who are co-heirs?

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

6: Who are sent to serve humans?
Hebrews 1
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Now regarding Christ 2) Hebrews 2:7
He made himself not just lower than the Father and man but also the angels.

Hebrews 2
9But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

>> See Jesus not only become a man he humbled himslef even greater still, he was man servent like an angel but even made himself more humble by becomming obedient to death, strip naked, tortured, hummilated, mocked and killed.

Philippians 2
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,b being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Ofcourse the Son is true God by nature from his Father, and the creator by who hands have created the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth but what an amazing gift for the “one and only true Son” the Lord of Glory to take flesh to save our souls with his blood.

Life in the Son and in his name.
Daniel

July 13, 2013 at 1:55 am#370614

Participant

Kerwin

July 13, 2013 at 3:11 pm#370615

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

July 13, 2013 at 5:00 pm#350654

Blocked

I'm impressed by the time and research that went into your post, Daniel. It is obvious that you are willing to search the scriptures, which is what this site is all about in the first place. Well done.

That being said, you are inadvertently glossing over one major detail: The writer of Hebrews clearly says, “But there is a place where someone has testified……….. You made them a little lower than the angels……….”.

Where is that “place” in scripture where someone testified that God made mankind a little lower than the angels? Isn't it in Psalm 8:5? Yet in Psalm 8:5, King David used the word “elohim” to refer to those angels.

If King David had meant, “you made man a little lower than God”, then the writer of Hebrews could never have said, “there is a place were someone has testified that you made man a little lower than the angels“, right?

Therefore, any translation that has “God” in Psalm 8:5 is not translating according to the scriptures as a whole. For while “God” is truly one of the possibilities of Psalm 8:5, it absolutely DOESN'T align with Hebrews 2:7.

In order for the inspired writer of Hebrews to quote Psalm 8:4-6 and say “angels”, he must have understood that King David MEANT “angels” in the first place.

And if King David DIDN'T mean angels, then tell me where in scripture the words of Hebrews 2:6-8 ARE testified.

The following post is just for some added information, and will show you, from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars, how Psalm 8:4-6 and Hebrews 2:6-8 align with some other scriptures.

July 13, 2013 at 5:11 pm#350655

Blocked

Psalm 8 NET Bible
8:4 Of what importance is the human race, that you should notice them?

Of what importance is mankind, that you should pay attention to them,

8:5 and make them a little less than the heavenly beings? 14

Footnote #14 says:
Heb “and you make him lack a little from [the] gods [or “God”].”

The psalmist does appear to allude to Gen 1:26-27, where mankind is created in the image of God and his angelic assembly (note “let us make man in our image” in Gen 1:26).

However, the psalmist’s statement need not be limited in its focus to that historical event, for all mankind shares the image imparted to the first human couple. Consequently the psalmist can speak in general terms of the exalted nature of mankind.

The referent of אֱלֹהִים (’elohim, “God” or “the heavenly beings”) is unclear. Some understand this as a reference to God alone, but the allusion to Gen 1:26-27 suggests a broader referent, including God and the other heavenly beings (known in other texts as “angels”).

The term אֱלֹהִים is also used in this way in Gen 3:5, where the serpent says to the woman, “you will be like the heavenly beings who know good and evil.” (Note Gen 3:22, where God says, “the man has become like one of us.”)

Also אֱלֹהִים may refer to the members of the heavenly assembly in Ps 82:1, 6.

Remember that these words were written by 25 TRINITARIAN scholars, Daniel.

If you add what they say to my point that Paul couldn't have quoted that psalm as “angels” unless he was led to believe that King David MEANT angels in the first place, the evidence becomes overwhelming. (Don't forget that if Psalm 8:5 DOESN'T mean “angels”, then there is no place in scripture that mankind was said to be made a little lower than the angels. Which would make us wonder where the quote in Hebrews 2 came from.)

July 13, 2013 at 6:55 pm#370616

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

July 15, 2013 at 1:15 am#350777

4Thomas

Participant

Thanks Mike,
OK thats fair
Hebrews 2:6
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that you are mindful of him? or the son of man that you visit him? 7You made him a little lower than the angels…

So now I need to look at the old testament and see what one is correct and what one Paul was referring to… So far from what I can see this reveals the Septuagint translation as the correct one and confirms that the discples quoted from the Septuagint which was greek and used the word angels.

Heres a quote from someone who doesn't believe in the tri Unity.

The Septuagint (LXX)

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Old Testament translated by Jews themselves a couple of centuries before Jesus was born. We know from all the passages the Hebrews writer quotes, that he is quoting the Septuagint which reads, “You have made him a littler lower than the angels.” In other words, the ancient Jews translated the Hebrew word Elohim in this passage as “angels” and the inspired writer of Hebrews is accepting this translation to be correct since he uses it and accepts that it is indeed a reference to angels.
End quote

So perhaps the Jews knew some of the other old testament translations were wrong and fixed this.

I believe the Septuagint translation is the correct old testament translation and this proves this, there are many good books that Luther removed to suit his views. I think the discples treated the Septuagint as the infallible translation.

So now both old and new testament agree the word is angels.

Mike, where does Jesus fit in the commandment?
Are we to love him with ALL our heart soul and mind or treat him as a neighbor and just love him as ourself?

Life in the Son and in his name, the “one and only” way to the Father. Take care.

Daniel

July 15, 2013 at 2:24 am#350783

Blocked

Quote (4Thomas @ July 14 2013,19:15)

Mike, where does Jesus fit in the commandment?
Are we to love him with ALL our heart soul and mind or treat him as a neighbor and just love him as ourself?

Absolutely the LXX version of Psalm 8:5 has “aggelos” (angels). And I've heard that Jesus and the disciples quoted the LXX 67% of the time – which would be twice as much as they quoted the Hebrew OT.

What that tells us is that the 70 scholars who produced the Septuagint – men who spoke fluent Greek and Hebrew, and knew the scriptures very well – understood that King David meant angels in Psalm 8:5 – even though he called them gods. (This also means that any translation that has “God” in Psalm 8:5 is not only bucking against Hebrews 2:7, but also against the LXX.)

But the LXX translators understood that David meant angels because they understood that angels were often called elohim in the Hebrew scriptures.

And that, my friend, is all I'm trying to get you to understand. Jehovah is not literally the only elohim in existence. He has created many other elohim, of whom He is the Most High, and of whom He is the Elohim.

He cannot be the god of gods unless there exist other gods for Him to be the god of, right?

He cannot be the MOST HIGH god if there don't exist other less high gods, right?

And that is the truth of the scriptures. Jesus is one of these many less high gods that Jehovah is the God OF, Daniel. (He is of course the second highest god, but that doesn't change the scriptural fact that the Most High God, Jehovah, is still HIS God as well as our God.)

As for your question, I would ask you: Who did JESUS tell us love with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength? (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27)

July 15, 2013 at 5:42 pm#370617

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

July 15, 2013 at 6:33 pm#370618

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

Quote

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit

July 16, 2013 at 1:36 am#350871

4Thomas

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 15 2013,13:24)

Quote (4Thomas @ July 14 2013,19:15)

Mike, where does Jesus fit in the commandment?
Are we to love him with ALL our heart soul and mind or treat him as a neighbor and just love him as ourself?

But the LXX translators understood that David meant angels because they understood that angels were often called elohim in the Hebrew scriptures.

He cannot be the god of gods unless there exist other gods for Him to be the god of, right?

He cannot be the MOST HIGH god if there don't exist other less high gods, right?

As for your question, I would ask you: Who did JESUS tell us love with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength? (Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27)

Hi Mike,
Good to see your respect for the septuagint.

Mike, it appears to me that you are trying to use this as explicit proof that angels are God.

From what I understand Hebrew was a dead language and the disciples spoke Aramaic and they read in Greek.

What we know and both agree is that Paul read the Septuagint and all he did was simply just quote from the Greek he read. Its a massive leap to use this as explicit proof that angels are Gods becuase we could do the same with humans etc.

So the simple truth is he just quoted from what he read so he quoted the greek.
I honestly think you are trying to make something that not there.

If Paul or any disclpe wanted us to believe that angels are Gods they would have said so in the new testament, but they didn't. On the other hand they did say their is one Lord and one God.

the Father is God of Gods but there is only one God
the Son is Lord of Lords But there is only one lord

So this doesn't mean the Son is the Lord of the Father or over the Father AND likewise that the Father was God of the Son BEFORE he took flesh. Jesus became a created being in true human flesh, his true Father became his God [as son of man] which ALLOWED our God to become our Father [adopted Sons].
Before this Jesus derived his nature and essence From and OF the Father [directly and alone], this is how they are ONE nature in unity, the Father and Son are *one* just as Jesus said. On the other hand Jesus had to do something to made us one with him [to be co-hiers] Jesus became flesh so we could be one with him in our human nature and have access to the Father.

I think its simple truth that Jesus derives his nature directly from his Father alone and we just need to accept he has the same nature as true God [because he is the one and only Son].

When you see the Son you see the Father so it goes without saying we should worship him and love him with all our being. Otherwise we make him into man alone or just a servant angel he to die for us, thanks mate [kinda thing] Jesus said we would die in our sins if we didn't believe “I am he” so **what** is he. Scripture teaches he is Lord and God and t

Notice it says to love the **”Lord”** your God. jesus is the lord of Lords not a prince of the Lords or a high Lord BUT the Lord of Lords.he Lord of Lords and the Lord of Glory and the creator and saviour of ALL things period.

Sorry this is rushed I have missed a few thing that I will get to at another time… Read the scriptures where Jesus gives the two commandments, how many Lords and Gods does Jesus the Lord of Glory teach there are???

Life in the Son, the only way to the Father.

Daniel

July 16, 2013 at 3:30 am#370619

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,00:33)

Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

Quote

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit

God is the well and the water therein is God's righteousness and holiness.
The Spirit is the bucket.
Jesus is the crank and rope.
In this way Jesus is the way to the source.
The man who drinks of the water reflects it.
Jesus is the weak and thirsty workman who drank from the bucket before he was able to set up the crank and rope.

July 16, 2013 at 4:01 am#370620

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,09:30)

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,00:33)

Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

Quote

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit

KERWIN

Quote

this still a allegory ,so could you make in clear water ,i mean simple scriptural words

July 16, 2013 at 4:21 am#370621

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,10:01)

Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,09:30)

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,00:33)

Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

Quote

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit

KERWIN

Quote

this still a allegory ,so could you make in clear water ,i mean simple scriptural words

Scripture use allegories and I have learned to use them as well.

God is the source of true righteousness and holiness.
Jesus is the image of true righteousness and holiness.
Jesus is the way to be like God in true righteousness and holiness for those that hunger and thirst for it.

July 16, 2013 at 4:34 am#370622

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,10:21)

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,10:01)

Quote (kerwin @ July 16 2013,09:30)

Quote (terraricca @ July 16 2013,00:33)

Quote (kerwin @ July 15 2013,23:42)

Quote (terraricca @ July 14 2013,00:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 13 2013,21:11)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2013,07:55)

Kerwin

Can you be more clear?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

Is there anything specifically you felt I was unclear about?

Quote

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

this seems so abstract that i am not sure I could understand it in the way you see it ,so tell me by being way more explicit

KERWIN

Quote

this still a allegory ,so could you make in clear water ,i mean simple scriptural words

Scripture use allegories and I have learned to use them as well.

kerwin

this is still in an allegorical way ;let see if I can help you in this ,

Quote

1) God is the source of true righteousness and holiness.
2)Jesus is the image of true righteousness and holiness.
3)Jesus is the way to be like God in true righteousness and holiness for those that hunger and thirst for it.

1) God is the source of all true knowledge ;RIGHTEOUSNESS CAN NOT BE TAKEN BUT UNDERSTAND AND APPLIED ,FOR IT IS BASED ON GODLY KNOWLEDGE ,THE FINAL RESULT OF THIS IS HOLINESS,(PERFECTION)

2)BEING AN IMAGE OF SOMETHING INVISIBLE WOULD MAKE AN INVISIBLE IMAGE NO YES

so again Christ is the transmitter of the true knowledge that leads to number 1 section but he is also the practical example into execute it and so he his our perfect model to follow to the pad of God his father ,

3)SO SINS WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW JESUS CHRIST AND BELIEVE IN HIM ,MEANING IS FORWARDED KNOWLEDGE OF GOD HIS FATHER ;BUT WE KNOW ONLY THOSE THAT ARE HUNGRY FOR BECOMING RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY ARE ATRACTED TO HIM AND GOD'S KNOWLEDGE IN THE SCRIPTURES

IS THIS WHAT YOU TRY TO SAY TO ME

July 16, 2013 at 5:55 am#370623