Who is this Jesus?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,03:50)

Quote (4Thomas @ July 03 2013,19:50) Mike, Do you understand what a false God is? The phrase “false god” is nowhere to be found in ANY scripture, Daniel.  They are the words of translators who hope to protect the scriptures from themselves.

Hi Mike,
Demons, fallen angels who are FALSE gods EVEN believe in one God. How many times does yahweh no to mention he also says there is no god before him and there is no god after him. There are SO MANY scriptures… to show he is ALONE God and there is no other.

Here the testament what Demons believe recorded from sacred scripture. So do demons think satan is the true one God? They know!

New International Version (©2011)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.

New Living Translation (©2007)
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

etc etc
So all the following translations are corrupt? Where is your proof.

Jeremiah 2:11
New International Version (©2011)
Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Has any nation ever traded its gods for new ones, even though they are not gods at all? Yet my people have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“Has a nation changed gods When they were not gods? But My people have changed their glory For that which does not profit.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Has a nation ever exchanged its gods? (But they were not gods!) Yet My people have exchanged their Glory for useless idols.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Has a nation ever changed gods when they aren't even gods? But my people have exchanged their glory for that which does not profit.

NET Bible (©2006)
Has a nation ever changed its gods (even though they are not really gods at all)? But my people have exchanged me, their glorious God, for a god that cannot help them at all!

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Has any nation ever exchanged gods? (Their gods aren't really gods.) Yet, my people have exchanged their Glory for something that doesn't help them.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Has a nation changed its gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

American King James Version
Has a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

American Standard Version
Hath a nation changed its gods, which yet are no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

Douay-Rheims Bible
If a nation hath changed their gods, and indeed they are not gods,: but my people have changed their glory into an idol.

Darby Bible Translation
Hath a nation changed its gods? and they are no gods; but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

English Revised Version
Hath a nation changed their gods, which yet are no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

Webster's Bible Translation
Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.

World English Bible
Has a nation changed [its] gods, which really are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.

AND how about this?
Jeremiah 5:7
“Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes.

Jeremiah 16:20
Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!”

A god who is not really a god is a FALSE God,

false god
An item of worship other than the God explained in the Bible. Usually another being/object.

usually a BEING or object.

There is no God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

Mike there is only one true God.
Answering your question, Jesus was lessor than the father in his human form just as he was lessor than the angels and also man because he suffered death.
Jesus in his true spirit form because he also had a pre-existant spirt that he derives from the Father alone (undivided at that) is equal to the father in nature but not authority.

Jesus is both true God [one undivided God with the Father]and true man and truely human.

Do you understand that Jesus is both true God and true man?
See salvation requires both the knowledge of the true undivided God and the true man Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5
New International Version (©2011)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation (©2007)
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity–the man Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

See you need to know the true one undivided God and the messiah man Jesus.

John 17:3
New International Version (©2011)
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

and Jesus Christ/Messiah we know Christ wasn't Jesus last name but his name as the man the mediator and messiah.

International Standard Version (©2012)
And this is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent—Jesus the Messiah.

You appear to forget that Jesus is both true man and true God. To try and use say you have heaps of examples to prove this, I know Jesus is ALSO a *MAN*.
Once you accept that Jesus has TWO natures this will be VERY easy and ALL SCRIPTURES will make sense and allign perfectly.

Please show me how Jesus spirit is less than 100% true God.

Yahweh appeared many times to many people in visions but he also appeared to people VERY clearly as Yahweh Almighty. I have shown you this before more than once.
THIS IS WHY JESUS said search the scriptures because they talk about him.

If you think angels are called Yahweh well let start calling the one and only true Son Yahweh.

Please explain how the Son is divided in Nature from the Father when he derives his nature Solely and directly FROM and OF the Father ALONE. Note scripture teaches that the Son rightfully has the same essence and nature as the Father.
Common sense also teaches that a one and only true Son has the same nature as his Father.

This is what makes the Son true God.
Galatians 4:8
New International Version (©2011)
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods.

THOSE WHO BY NATURE ARE NOT GODS.

Love and Life in the Son and in his name, there is salvation in NO other name. Mike everyday I truly hope that you will accpet Jesus as true God.

Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Hi Daniel,

Please address these three things DIRECTLY for me. They are the points of my last three posts, and I don't feel you actually addressed them.

1. Show me that the two scriptures I listed DON'T speak of gods other than Jehovah.

2. Either refute that Jesus was LESSER THAN his and our God, Jehovah, while he was on the earth……… or ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

3. Either show me the phrase “false god” in the Hebrew or Greek text, or ACKNOWLEDGE that the term was ADDED to the scriptures by translators.

I can't just keep going around and around in circles, Daniel. We must start getting some closure on some of these points before bringing more points into the discussion.

If you truthfully deal with point #1 above, the scriptures in your last post will address themselves.

[mikeboll64]

Daniel,

NEVERMIND MY LAST POST.  YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADDRESS ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

We need to start over, Daniel.  We're all over the place.  I suppose that in order to show you that Jesus is a god who is lesser than his own God Jehovah, I must first convince you that the Bible is loaded with many gods – just like Paul clearly taught us in 1 Cor 8:5.

I want to discuss ONLY this following scripture until we have closure on it.  I will not even answer to any points you make – unless they are DIRECTLY addressing only this one scripture.

Psalm 8:5
You have made them a little lower than the gods, and crowned them with glory and honor.

David, speaking by Holy Spirit, said Jehovah made man a little lower than the gods.  Who are these gods, Daniel?

I won't move on to anything else until we are done discussing this one scripture.

[terraricca]

kERWIN

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,05:19)

kERWIN

T,

What do you have questions about?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,10:19)

LU, You have been taught that he is 100% man and 100% God and not to question that even though you question the claim that a dog is a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle.

Good point. Kathi?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 07 2013,23:53)

Quote (terraricca @ July 07 2013,05:19) kERWIN T, What do you have questions about?

K

my last post ,

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,11:19)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,10:27) Kerwin, I believe that scripture teaches us that He is both God and man. LU, You have been taught that he is 100% man and 100% God and not to question that even though you question the claim that a dog is a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle. What Scripture teaches is that Jesus dwells in Jehovah and Jehovah dwells in him.  He also calls Jehovah his God and believers his brothern.  About believers it declares God dwells in them through his Spirit.

Kerwin,
you said:

Quote

You have been taught that he is 100% man and 100% God and not to question that even though you question the claim that a dog is a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle.

First of all, how do you know what I've been taught and what I have been told not to question?

Also, I have explained the prince and the pauper to you and that explains how royalty can become a common man. There was a body type of change from heavenly body type to flesh body type in Jesus case.

There are a lot of things that are unexplainable with our limited understanding but you probably believe that unexplainable things did indeed happen…like angels filling the sky and singing when Jesus was born. Or angels appearing to men and looking like men but disappearing in the smoke of a sacrifice ascending to heaven. So, if I can't explain how an angel came walking up to Abraham and eating with him like a man, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen, right?!

I believe that Jesus is the root and the shoot…and that represents two different parts of the plant for two different purposes. You don't believe that. I do. And that is what makes us so different in our beliefs.

Do you have trouble calling Jesus our God and Savior? Peter didn't and I don't. You might not have a problem with that either if you understood that He actually is 100% God as our God and Savior Jesus Christ and 100% Man as Jesus of Nazareth.

2 Peter 1
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Supernatural things cannot typically be explained but by faith we are to believe. We can question it, no problem, and when we put our trust in Jesus, it is by a faith that we cling to in accordance to the word of God, not according to our lack of understanding.

Quote

What Scripture teaches is that Jesus dwells in Jehovah and Jehovah dwells in him. He also calls Jehovah his God and believers his brothern. About believers it declares God dwells in them through his Spirit.

Jehovah the Father dwells in Jehovah the Son and they dwell in us and we in them. It is a very spiritual concept and another that is beyond complete understanding. You seem to accept that God can dwell in believers but can you explain that? Probably not completely. You accept that by faith in accordance to God's word, right?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 03 2013,10:50)

Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,10:11) Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,01:25) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2013,09:26) Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition. I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature. LU, Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be.   There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes. LU, Respond please.  Thank you. Kerwin, The only part of Jesus that you seem to accept is the man part. Jesus, according to His human nature had human attributes. Of course, I was referring to His divine nature that was the same as His Father's nature in attributes with a self-existence and eternal aspect. Sorry I took so long to respond…I have visitors from out-of-town this week.   LU, I understand that other events have a priority. There is only one Jesus.  Either he is all man or all God but not both.   If I presented a dog to you and stated it was a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle would you believe me? If Jesus was all God he could not be tempted by evil. If Jesus was all Human he could be tempted by evil but chose not to sin. Scripture testifies of the second. K Understand that the reason why God the father can not be tempted is indeed very simple, How could God be tempted by anything he possesses All is his , We only can be tempted by what we do not have , This was the case of Jesus ,the devil offert him the world because he received it ,but Christ turned down ,James tell how temptation REALY works.

T,

God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted to hate that which is good or to love that which is evil.

Note: corrected the dropped word “to”

[kerwin]

LU,

Quote

Also, I have explained the prince and the pauper to you and that explains how royalty can become a common man. There was a body type of change from heavenly body type to flesh body type in Jesus case.

1} Prince pretends to be pauper but is still the prince.
2} Prince stops being prince and becomes pauper.

Neither of those contradict but they still cause a failed doctrine.

Quote

There are a lot of things that are unexplainable with our limited understanding but you probably believe that unexplainable things did indeed happen

We are not speaking of the unexplainable, we are talking about a true contradiction.

Those words are one reason why I believe you have been taught not question the idea that Jesus is Jehovah.

Quote

like angels filling the sky and singing when Jesus was born. Or angels appearing to men and looking like men but disappearing in the smoke of a sacrifice ascending to heaven. So, if I can't explain how an angel came walking up to Abraham and eating with him like a man, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen, right?!

Even if your interpretation is correct in these matters I don't see what is unexplainable given the power of God.

Quote

Jehovah the Father dwells in Jehovah the Son and they dwell in us and we in them. It is a very spiritual concept and another that is beyond complete understanding. You seem to accept that God can dwell in believers but can you explain that? Probably not completely. You accept that by faith in accordance to God's word, right?

Believers dwells in God and he dwells in them by his Spirit. I accept that because it is self evident as it is about who God is.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,12:41)

Hi Daniel, Please address these three things DIRECTLY for me.  They are the points of my last three posts, and I don't feel you actually addressed them. 1.  Show me that the two scriptures I listed DON'T speak of gods other than Jehovah. 2.  Either refute that Jesus was LESSER THAN his and our God, Jehovah, while he was on the earth……… or ACKNOWLEDGE IT. 3.  Either show me the phrase “false god” in the Hebrew or Greek text, or ACKNOWLEDGE that the term was ADDED to the scriptures by translators. I can't just keep going around and around in circles, Daniel.  We must start getting some closure on some of these points before bringing more points into the discussion. If you truthfully deal with point #1 above, the scriptures in your last post will address themselves.

Hi Mike,
I just seen this, been busy with other stuff sorry.

Jesus is equal in nature becuase he is the “one and only” Son.
Scripture teaches EXPLICITY that it was Yahweh “the Almighty that was seen”

Mike Jesus isn't an arch angel like satan was or like Michael or Gabriel [the angel of the lord].

If your Son dervied his nature directly from you, he would be in your image and your nature. Its REAL SIMPLE,
THIS IS THE SAME FOR THE ONE AND ONLY SON

I wasn't raised to believe in the TRI unity of Father Son and Spirit but its very easy to see.
Believe me mike I wanted to believe the jw doctrline due to selfess reasons of a girl I had a knew years before but to believe that “the Word”, the one and only Son who is pure truth and cannot lie said when you see him you see the Father.
I had to make up my mind to believe him or call him a liar.
I put my trust in him I, I have never EVER found condemnation in him but my prayers are answered, I'm blessed and I have had many miracles happen. Its my desire to wake up all the sleeping giants and call the choosen to stand and be counted among the true Lord of lords [by nature]

Every example God uses reveals more and more that the Word derives his nature from the Father.
God ALSO uses the example of ADAM and EVE to show how we can have seperate person in the one single nature from Adam and Eve.

We are ALSO created as SPIRIT SOUL and BODY.
Yet another MASSIVE revealation.

Mike, you are a Soul and you have to make a decission each day to live in the SPIRIT – OR – THE FLESH.

Your Soul is where yourself dwells – your spirit is where the spirit of God dwells or other spirits that try and decieve and blind and deafen to the truth.

Just like you I feel we aren't getting anywhere.
Will move onto the next question

Life in the Son.
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2013,12:49)

Daniel, NEVERMIND MY LAST POST.  YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADDRESS ANY OF THOSE THINGS. We need to start over, Daniel.  We're all over the place.  I suppose that in order to show you that Jesus is a god who is lesser than his own God Jehovah, I must first convince you that the Bible is loaded with many gods – just like Paul clearly taught us in 1 Cor 8:5. I want to discuss ONLY this following scripture until we have closure on it.  I will not even answer to any points you make – unless they are DIRECTLY addressing only this one scripture. Psalm 8:5 You have made them a little lower than the gods, and crowned them with glory and honor. David, speaking by Holy Spirit, said Jehovah made man a little lower than the gods.  Who are these gods, Daniel? I won't move on to anything else until we are done discussing this one scripture.

International Standard Version (©2012)
You made him a little less than divine, but you crowned him with glory and honor.

English Revised Version
For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.

World English Bible
For you have made him a little lower than God, and crowned him with glory and honor.

Sure there are some translation that INCORRECTLY use the word Angels for the word GOD but these are wrong.

Mike, “lower than Elohim”, than God, if you are going to make your own translation into english and call Elohim godS then you need to be consistant.

Mike, the Son is equal in nature because he derives his nature from the Father ALONE, its real simple, honestly I haven't been forced to believe in anything being raised I became baptised as a young adult and had NO Brain washing from any church or organisation.

I honestly dont even see what you are trying to do… What your goal? Is it to try and make me think that Jesus [the one and only Son] is equal to Gabriel and Michael? The only thing that will lead to is Satan being an equal becuase he too was one of the arch angels?

Mike I believe Jesus is like Eve in a sort, equal in nature but not in authority.

I really think the heart of the matter is
DO WE WORSHIP the one and only Son [ who says when you see him you see the Father]

Do we LOVE Jesus with ALL our heart Soul and MIND or as a neigbour.

There are only two rules where all the law hangs and I dont see where your Jesus fits in this.

Please explain should we Love jesus with ALL our heart Soul and Mind or should we NOT?

Life in the Son, hope you have a good night.
Daniel

[terraricca]

K

Quote

T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil.

their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41)

K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this

T,

Sorry! I drooped the word “to” twice. It is corrected now.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,02:34)

Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41) K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this T, Sorry!   I drooped the word “to” twice.  It is corrected now.

K

there is no temptation in God at all ,God in all he does is done in love,and sins their is no other God that created all things HE HIS THE ONLY SOURCE OF THE TRUTH ,

their is no evil in him nor does he produce any ;

wen scriptures tells that God can not be tempted or does not tempt anyone this is a pure fact

what can any men give to God for a bribe nothing

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,03:14)

Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,02:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41) K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this T, Sorry!   I drooped the word “to” twice.  It is corrected now. K there is no temptation in God at all ,God in all he does is done in love,and sins their is no other God that created all things HE HIS THE ONLY SOURCE OF THE TRUTH , their is no evil in him nor does he produce any ; wen scriptures tells that God can not be tempted or does not tempt anyone this is a pure fact what can any men give to God for a bribe nothing

T,

I took the words love good and hate evil from God's description of love. He is the source of true love.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,04:51)

Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,03:14) Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,02:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41) K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this T, Sorry!   I drooped the word “to” twice.  It is corrected now. K there is no temptation in God at all ,God in all he does is done in love,and sins their is no other God that created all things HE HIS THE ONLY SOURCE OF THE TRUTH , their is no evil in him nor does he produce any ; wen scriptures tells that God can not be tempted or does not tempt anyone this is a pure fact what can any men give to God for a bribe nothing T, I took the words love good and hate evil from God's description of love.  He is the source of true love.

K

yes kerwin,that is true ,but do you know why it is true

and why Christ says if you seen me you have seen the father

those two things are connected .

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,05:55)

Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,04:51) Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,03:14) Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,02:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41) K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this T, Sorry!   I drooped the word “to” twice.  It is corrected now. K there is no temptation in God at all ,God in all he does is done in love,and sins their is no other God that created all things HE HIS THE ONLY SOURCE OF THE TRUTH , their is no evil in him nor does he produce any ; wen scriptures tells that God can not be tempted or does not tempt anyone this is a pure fact what can any men give to God for a bribe nothing T, I took the words love good and hate evil from God's description of love.  He is the source of true love. K yes kerwin,that is true ,but do you know why it is true and why Christ says if you seen me you have seen the father those two things are connected .

T,

Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,07:58)

Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,04:51) Quote (terraricca @ July 09 2013,03:14) Quote (kerwin @ July 09 2013,02:34) Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2013,18:41) K Quote T, God cannot be tempted by evil so he cannot be tempted hate that which is good or love that which is evil. their seem to be some thing wrong in this sentence ;i cannot understand what you are meaning ,could you rephrase this T, Sorry!   I drooped the word “to” twice.  It is corrected now. K there is no temptation in God at all ,God in all he does is done in love,and sins their is no other God that created all things HE HIS THE ONLY SOURCE OF THE TRUTH , their is no evil in him nor does he produce any ; wen scriptures tells that God can not be tempted or does not tempt anyone this is a pure fact what can any men give to God for a bribe nothing T, I took the words love good and hate evil from God's description of love.  He is the source of true love. K yes kerwin,that is true ,but do you know why it is true and why Christ says if you seen me you have seen the father those two things are connected . T, Jesus is the way to the source and the image of it.

k

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying ;could you said this like I was a 7 year old boy

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ July 08 2013,00:07)

Just like you I feel we aren't getting anywhere. Will move onto the next question

Okay. I'll address that one tomorrow. It's late and I'm tired now.

peace,
mike

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