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Quote (4Thomas @ June 30 2013,19:18) Psalm 8:5
English Revised Version
For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.the greek Hebrew doesn't mention angels so the translation that say angels are incorrect.
there isn't a single bible revision that says gods, what revision are you using?
I'm not using a revision, but the actual Hebrew word, which is “elohim”.And the point is that King David, speaking by Holy Spirit, said Jehovah made man a little lower than the elohim (gods).
The LXX understood these gods to be angels, and so translated it as such.
Later, the writer of Hebrews also assumed the same thing, and also translated “elohim” as “angels” when he quoted that psalm.
But the fact that the (supposedly) inspired writer of Hebrews (probably Paul) translated it as angels, instead of “God”, seems to indicate that “God” in the original psalm is not an accurate translation. Most English versions back-translate from Heb 2:7, and render the psalm as “angels” – even though the word David used was “elohim”, which is almost always translated as “gods”.
There is a new movement that makes me happy to see, Daniel. It seems that some more recent Biblical scholars are coming clean about the “one literal god” false teaching of the early Trinitarian fathers. They are starting to let the scriptures speak for themselves, instead of trying to protect the scriptures from themselves by insisting they remain 100% polytheistic.
That's why we are now able to read translations like:
Psalm 8:5
English Standard Version (©2001)
Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings………..NET Bible (©2006)
and make them a little less than the heavenly beings………NIV ©
You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings……..These scholars are finally taking a step in the right direction by acknowledging the Bible speaks of MANY gods – the MOST HIGH of which is Jehovah. (Face it, Jehovah cannot possibly be the MOST HIGH god, if He is literally the ONLY god. Nor could He be the god OF gods if there existed no other gods for Him to be the god OF.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2013,14:42) Quote (4Thomas @ June 28 2013,13:01) It doesn't change the nature of the employee though does it. Adam is like the Father and Eve is like the Son, both are truly different but still human………….
Hmmm………….But are we able to see Eve's face without dying, but cannot see Adam's or else we will die?
Is it said that, “no one has seen Adam at any time, but Eve has explained him to us”?
Of course not. So there is definitely a difference between God and His many spirit sons (Jesus included) if we CAN see the face of His spirit sons without dying, but CANNOT see the face of God without dying.
Agreed?
Hi Mike,
This time without deleting it
Scripture doesn’t say you can’t see the Father’s face, it says NO-ONE has ever seen the Father period, it says NO-ONE has ever seen the Father’s Form. Its doesn't say anything about the Fathers face.Also Moses seen Yahweh in ALL his glory.
If I see my dad, wife, son or daughter’s back I see them and I certainly see their form.23Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”
It’s the Son who is Yahweh [The Word] who says you cannot see my face and live when he reveals -ALL- his goodness/glory.
This is BECAUSE Yahweh (the Word) just spoke with Moses FACE TO FACE as a man speaks to his friend. Some of the greatest revelations of Moses seeing Yahweh directly are also found DIRECTLY BEFORE and AFTER Yahweh revealing all his goodness/glory to Moses.
It’s clear Moses knew that Yahweh (the Word) wasn’t revealing ALL his glory to him when he seen him – that’s why Moses asked Yahweh to reveal his glory to him.
Again it’s IMPORTANT to note Moses seen Yahweh EVEN in ALL his glory but could only see his back. I believe this is because “the Word” the Lord of Glory is the exact brightness and image of his Father. When we see the “the Word” in ALL his Glory we see the Father in ALL his Glory.Directly before Moses requesting to see ALL Yahweh goodness we have the following in the verse leading upto this.
11Thus the LORD [Yahweh] used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.23Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.” [END of chapter]
The Bible wasn’t written in chapters so *Directly* After Moses seeing Yahweh’s back and form in ALL his goodness/glory you have.
5The LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6The LORD [Yahweh] passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious…
Moses rightfully worshipped
8And Moses quickly bowed his head toward the earth and worshiped.Then Yahweh yet again (obviously Jesus, the Word) ends up staying with him for 40 nights.
28So he was there with the LORD [Yahweh]forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water.If it’s not the Yahweh (the Word) who reveals ALL his glory to Moses after moses requests it. You have the following.
>Yahweh [the Word] coming talking with Moses face to face as a man speaks to his friend and then we have a change to Yahweh the Father coming to earth to reveal ALL his glory to show Moses his back AND then we have yet again Yahweh (the Word) coming back to earth to *stand* in front of Moses and stay with him 40 days
30Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
John 5
34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.The question of salvation is FOUND in John 5 **WHY** on earth did The Word “Jesus” say study the Scriptures diligently BECAUSE you think you have **LIFE** in the scriptures.
John 5
37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen,Jesus said you have never seen the Father -form-. Jesus DID NOT say you have never seen the Fathers face, the new testament says a number of times for good reason that NO-ONE has seen God (The Father) at any time. I dont know anywhere the father has ever came to earth, instead he sends his Word [The Word]
46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
For he wrote about ? He wrote about seeing Yahweh and him in glory
That’s why numbers 12:8 goes into -extreme- detail to prove without any doubt that Moses actually seen Yahweh not in a vision or dream but mouth to mouth and Moses sees Yahweh -form- sacred old testament scripture teaches.
Mike if you do decide to refute this, I would **really** need an ANSWER why Jesus spoke CLEARLY for the sake of peoples salvation that no one has ever seen the Father form.
This is a salvation question so would kindly appreciate an answer for this.
I want to know you are savedHope you had a good night.
Life in “the Word” and in his name
DanielDaniel, for what seems like the hundredth time……………
1. No man has EVER seen Jehovah (except for Jesus). Moses was allowed to see God's glory. Many assume this refers to the “after-effects” of God passing by.
Moses never actually saw God as any kind of form. He never LITERALLY talked directly to God's face, as if God was right there with him, and he was SEEING God. The “face to face” thing is metaphorical, and refers to God talking DIRECTLY to Moses, instead of through a mediator or vision. It means “had a direct audience with God Himself”.
2. You are arguing that Jesus is a LESSOR form of Jehovah who CAN be seen by men, because the Father CANNOT be seen by men. Do you even realize that you are (unsuccessfully) arguing that Jesus is a LESSER god who CAN be seen by men?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2013,12:34) Daniel, for what seems like the hundredth time…………… 1. No man has EVER seen Jehovah (except for Jesus). Moses was allowed to see God's glory. Many assume this refers to the “after-effects” of God passing by.
Moses never actually saw God as any kind of form. He never LITERALLY talked directly to God's face, as if God was right there with him, and he was SEEING God. The “face to face” thing is metaphorical, and refers to God talking DIRECTLY to Moses, instead of through a mediator or vision. It means “had a direct audience with God Himself”.
2. You are arguing that Jesus is a LESSOR form of Jehovah who CAN be seen by men, because the Father CANNOT be seen by men. Do you even realize that you are (unsuccessfully) arguing that Jesus is a LESSER god who CAN be seen by men?
No Mike,
Scripture spells it out,Numbers 12:6-10
New International Version (©2011)
6he [Yahweh] said, “Listen to my words:>> You would like to think Moses was included here
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.>>>Yahweh teaches that many times he has spoken to prophets in visions, e.g the fire in a dream etc.
7But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.>>>Yahweh says this is not the case with Moses, this means he didn’t speak to him in a vision or a dream. Now if he didn’t speak to Moses in a dream or vision how did he speak with him???
8With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].>>>This becomes even more compounding evidence, compounding upon compounding. Not in visions, but face to face AND he sees my form.
he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].
HE SEEN THE FORM OF YAHWEH, ***Not in a vision***First question.
Again I KEEP asking PLEASE answer WHY did Jesus say for the sake of salvation that Moses wrote about him and that NO-ONE has ever seen the Fathers form.
You teach that Jesus isn't God and use a single very week scripture to try to prove this.
And then you try and teach that Angels are gods?So if Jesus is God and so are angels whats the point mike?
I dont think “the Word” Jesus is the Father but instead the one and only Son who derives his nature directly from the Father.
doubting thomas came to understand that it was Yahweh the Son whom said you will look upon me the one you have pierced. This is why he said to Jesus the one and only Son [the Word] my Lord and My God.Jesus is called the great God and saviour.
Can you see what you are doing? Mike you are a nice guy I hope you see where I'm comming from?Life in the Son and in his name
DanielQuote (kerwin @ June 30 2013,09:26) Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
LU,Respond please. Thank you.
Kerwin,
The only part of Jesus that you seem to accept is the man part. Jesus, according to His human nature had human attributes. Of course, I was referring to His divine nature that was the same as His Father's nature in attributes with a self-existence and eternal aspect.Sorry I took so long to respond…I have visitors from out-of-town this week.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,01:19) Pierre,
One month since what?
KATHYjust kidding ,Kerwin got impatient so I added that
Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) First question.
Again I KEEP asking PLEASE answer WHY did Jesus say for the sake of salvation that Moses wrote about him and that NO-ONE has ever seen the Fathers form.
In John 5:37, Jesus is talking to a specific group of Jewish leaders (see verse 16). He is telling THEM that THEY have never heard God's voice or seen His form. He does not say that NO ONE has ever heard God's voice, for many heard God's voice directly from the mountain during the exodus.Daniel, I have just read a load of commentaries about Numbers 12:8. ALL of them agree that the words, “with him I speak mouth to mouth” (not “face to face”) means “not through an interpreter, angel, or vision…… but directly”.
As for the “the form of the LORD he shall behold” part, most of them agree that it refers to the time when Moses was allowed to see the “back” of God. (Ex 33:23)
But then they are all quick to point out Ex 33:20, where Jehovah Himself tells Moses he CANNOT see His face, because NO MAN can see His face and live. They also point to John 1:18 where, YEARS AFTER MOSES DIED, it is said that no man has ever seen God AT ANY TIME.
So there are many ways to understand Numbers 12:8 WITHOUT making scriptures contradict each other. The LXX translators took “form” metaphorically, and translated it as “he will see my GLORY”.
Look, it seems like we've been going back and forth over this for ages. Why not just get to your point? Let's assume that scriptures DO contradict each other, and Moses DID see the face of God. Now what? How will you explain it? Surely you will say that Jesus was the “Jehovah” that Moses saw, right? And what will that do for your doctrine? Because as far as I can see, making that claim means you agree that Jesus is a LESSER god who CAN BE seen by men, while the Father (the GREATER God) cannot.
Is that your intention? Are you aiming to agree with me that Jesus IS a lesser god than his and our God Jehovah?
If not, then what exactly ARE you trying to prove by insisting Moses saw the face of God?
Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) You teach that Jesus isn't God and use a single very week scripture to try to prove this.
A single scripture? I don't think things get resolved by posting a million “Jesus is NOT God” scriptures all at once. I do it one scripture at a time. Trust me – you'll eventually see hundreds of them…….. if you stick around.Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) And then you try and teach that Angels are gods?
Yes. Angels and demons are many times in scripture called gods. I am merely aligning my understanding with those scriptures.Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) So if Jesus is God and so are angels whats the point mike?
I know that Jesus is a god (not “God”). I also know that Satan and other angels are also gods – according to scripture. So my point is to show you from scripture that there are indeed many gods and many lords, just like Paul clearly said, and that Jehovah – the God of Jesus and all those other gods – is the Most High of them all, and the only one who created all things.I intend to show you from scripture that Jesus is not the Most High God himself – but a lesser god who is a servant, lamb, prophet, priest, and son OF that Most High God.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,01:25) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2013,09:26) Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
LU,Respond please. Thank you.
Kerwin,
The only part of Jesus that you seem to accept is the man part. Jesus, according to His human nature had human attributes. Of course, I was referring to His divine nature that was the same as His Father's nature in attributes with a self-existence and eternal aspect.Sorry I took so long to respond…I have visitors from out-of-town this week.
LU,I understand that other events have a priority.
There is only one Jesus. Either he is all man or all God but not both.
If I presented a dog to you and stated it was a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle would you believe me?
If Jesus was all God he could not be tempted by evil.
If Jesus was all Human he could be tempted by evil but chose not to sin.Scripture testifies of the second.
Quote (kerwin @ July 03 2013,10:11) Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,01:25) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2013,09:26) Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2013,02:47) Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2013,01:42) Agreed, Kerwin, they are not the same definition.
I don't believe that the offspring of God (the ONLY Begotten Son) is the 'Spirit of God.' I believe that the offspring is the only begotten Son who is like His Father in attributes and nature, self-existent/eternal nature.
LU,Jesus is clearly not like God in attributes since he was tempted by evil and God cannot be. There are more attributes that are different but that is enough to show they have different attributes.
LU,Respond please. Thank you.
Kerwin,
The only part of Jesus that you seem to accept is the man part. Jesus, according to His human nature had human attributes. Of course, I was referring to His divine nature that was the same as His Father's nature in attributes with a self-existence and eternal aspect.Sorry I took so long to respond…I have visitors from out-of-town this week.
LU,I understand that other events have a priority.
There is only one Jesus. Either he is all man or all God but not both.
If I presented a dog to you and stated it was a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle would you believe me?
If Jesus was all God he could not be tempted by evil.
If Jesus was all Human he could be tempted by evil but chose not to sin.Scripture testifies of the second.
KUnderstand that the reason why God the father can not be tempted is indeed very simple,
How could God be tempted by anything he possesses
All is his ,We only can be tempted by what we do not have ,
This was the case of Jesus ,the devil offert him the world because he received it ,but Christ turned down ,James tell how temptation REALY works.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 03 2013,10:27) Kerwin,
I believe that scripture teaches us that He is both God and man.
LU,You have been taught that he is 100% man and 100% God and not to question that even though you question the claim that a dog is a purebred beagle and a purebred poodle.
What Scripture teaches is that Jesus dwells in Jehovah and Jehovah dwells in him. He also calls Jehovah his God and believers his brothern. About believers it declares God dwells in them through his Spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 03 2013,11:49) Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) You teach that Jesus isn't God and use a single very week scripture to try to prove this.
A single scripture? I don't think things get resolved by posting a million “Jesus is NOT God” scriptures all at once. I do it one scripture at a time. Trust me – you'll eventually see hundreds of them…….. if you stick around.Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) And then you try and teach that Angels are gods?
Yes. Angels and demons are many times in scripture called gods. I am merely aligning my understanding with those scriptures.Quote (4Thomas @ July 02 2013,00:42) So if Jesus is God and so are angels whats the point mike?
I know that Jesus is a god (not “God”). I also know that Satan and other angels are also gods – according to scripture. So my point is to show you from scripture that there are indeed many gods and many lords, just like Paul clearly said, and that Jehovah – the God of Jesus and all those other gods – is the Most High of them all, and the only one who created all things.I intend to show you from scripture that Jesus is not the Most High God himself – but a lesser god who is a servant, lamb, prophet, priest, and son OF that Most High God.
Quote Yes. Angels and demons are many times in scripture called gods. I am merely aligning my understanding with those scriptures.
Please show me all the MANY times that angels are called gods. Mike there is only one God by nature ALL others are false gods. Please show me a single true God except Yahweh and his Word and BreathQuote A single scripture? I don't think things get resolved by posting a million “Jesus is NOT God” scriptures all at once. I do it one scripture at a time. Trust me – you'll eventually see hundreds of them…….. if you stick around.
Mike, yes I too believe that Jesus “The Word” became a man and can show you the entire New Testament full of examples where Jesus as **MAN** is lower than the angels and even men and women who he came to save as he humbled himself greater even to be crucified on a cross.
This doesn’t change the Fact of WHAT his spirit is and the glory and power that can be unleashed from that.
I’ve been hammered today with customer demands so will have to reply with scripture tomorrow.Life in the Son, the one and only way to the Father
DanielMike,
Do you understand what a false God is?
Its someone who trys to take the place of the one true God, example the Devil and his angels and man made gods.
Its anything that is worshipped as the one true God.Mike, Jesus said we would die in our sins unless we believed “who” and “what” he is, so you think we need to believe he is an angel or true God?
Life in The One and Only true Son, who takes his nature directly from the Father alone and eternally is The Word.
DanielQuote (4Thomas @ July 03 2013,19:44) Please show me all the MANY times that angels are called gods.
I'll show you a couple, for starters.Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not…………….Here we see Moses identifying demons (who are angels) as gods. I don't see the words “false gods”, do you?
Judges 13
21…….Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen a god!”
Here we see Manoah, realizing he had seen an ANGEL, saying, “We have seen a GOD”.
There are many more. If you can refute these first two, I will post others.
Quote (4Thomas @ July 03 2013,19:44) ……..Jesus as **MAN** is lower than the angels and even men and women who he came to save………….
So then Jesus was NOT God Almighty on earth?I need to hear you say it, Daniel. I need to hear you say that Jesus was LESSOR THAN his God Jehovah while he was on earth.
Either refute it, or acknowledge it.
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