Who is this Jesus?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,17:24)

So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not?

[Lightenup]

Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,18:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,04:26) Kerwin, It is written here: Rev 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Quote Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah? No, but they are identified as belonging to Jehovah. His name is written on their forheads. LU, So does believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them each a Jesus? So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not?

Kerwin,

Quote

So does believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them each a Jesus?

No, that indicates that they are conquerers like Jesus.

Quote

So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not?

I believe that the self-existing eternal nature means you are YHVH and the head or part of the head.

The body of believers do not have original eternal nature and thus would not be YHVH but can be identified as belonging to YHVH.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,18:32)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:20) I suppose YHVH our righteousness could be written and that one name cover all three, God the Father, the city and Jesus. So then the name of the Father is also “Jehovah is our Righteousness”?   Kathi, in 3:12, Jesus clearly speaks of writing THREE different names on them. In 14:1, Jesus clearly speaks of writing TWO different names on them.

Mike,
The name/names represent three. There is nothing that says they are different.

If a father and a son were named Jones and you had Jones written on your forehead, then you had the name of the father and the name of the son written on your forehead.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,18:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,16:47) Well Mike, Scripture tells us that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords and that there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ…also that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords. So, I didn't make it up…it is written. Using that criteria, I could also make the claim that Jehovah is Satan.  Because “Jehovah” is written.  And the word “is” is written.  And “Satan” is also written.  Therefore, I could lump those words together and claim “Jehovah is Satan”. After all, that's all you're doing. You're taking a scripture that calls the one and only Jehovah (the FATHER) “the God of gods and Lord of lords”, and adding Jesus into that statement that was made exclusively about the Father. Then you're taking a completely different scripture that calls Jesus “the Lord of lords”, and applying it to that first statement that was made exclusively about the Father. But just think, Jesus is not only the Lord of lords, but also the King of kings, right?  And Nebuchadnezzar is also “the King of kings”, right?  Should we then add those two completely different contexts together, and start preaching that Jesus is a “Lordhead” made up of himself (“the Lord of lords”) AND Nebuchadnezzar (“the King of kings”)?  And that the two of them act as one in the “Divine Lordhead”?   Of course not.  So why then would you do the same exact thing with God and his SERVANT Jesus Christ? I'll tell you what, if you can show to me that the Father ALONE is NOT both a God of gods AND a Lord of lords, I'll be interested in hearing more about your theory. Can you do that?  Of course not.  But if you could, my next challenge would be for you to show that Jesus ALONE is the ONLY Lord over other lords in the entire scriptures.  In that way, we could be sure that the “Lord of lords” part of Deut 10:17 absolutely MUST BE talking about none other than Jesus. Do you think you can do that?  Of course not.  And since you cannot do either of these things, it becomes clear that all you've done is linked words from two entirely different contexts together – like I did when I claimed “Jehovah is Satan”. That is really not the stuff that I would build my doctrine around.   Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,16:47) The position that Jesus gained that He did not have before was the position of the kinsman redeemer and High Priest that could sympathize with mankind. Hmmmm……….  Where can I read this in scripture, Kathi?  And how does being a kinsman redeemer and High Priest for human beings mean Jesus is now exalted higher than he ever was before? And more importantly, how can GOD MOST HIGH, who you say Jesus is, EVER be exalted to a higher position than GOD MOST HIGH?

Well, just because I linked some scriptures together does not automatically disqualify them from supporting the truth written in those scriptures. In fact, I believe that linking scriptures together correctly certainly gives testimony to the truth and provides a witness. This is what I believe that I have done.

Anyone can link scriptures together and make them submit to some crazy theory like you have shown with your satan example.

So, the question is…are those scriptures related and express a truth about YHVH or are they unrelated.

I believe they are related.
You are free to believe what you will. I have tried to help you.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,04:36)

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,11:02) Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,09:02) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2013,10:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,12:37) The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist. YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords. Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation? your theory, means that God was at one point never alone,that creation did not start with the creation of his son “THE WORD” that became Jesus Christ, this is contradicting the scriptures ,in favor of human opinions, of cause God is the ALMIGHTY GOD , and Christ being his son ,this alone would make him a almighty god,also being the first of creation ,would also make him a god to all those created after him and through him ,is it not Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone. Kathy Quote Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone. 1)Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was    alone…indeed, 2)he Father and Son were alone. are those two event the same or different by time They are two ways of saying the same thing which eternally existed in that way before creation. A physical word picture of that which is imperfect but might help, is the concept of a pregnant woman. If a nine month pregnant woman is in a room and no one else is in there, is she alone or with someone? Couldn't both be correct? It depends on your perspective. She is considered 'with child' yet she is alone in the room. If her child was born and with her, they could still be considered alone in the room.

KATHY

you are funny

God is spirit and sins you and I do not really know what is the full conditions of an spirit God is ,so we only can speculate,

but what we know from what is written is the Jehovah and his son are two separate being and the son was created from the father as his very first creation we can call it from eternity ,meaning so long ago that no years in number can be expressed ,

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
We do NOT know from scripture that the Son was created as his very first creation. In fact He possessed Him before His works of old.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,06:38)

Pierre, We do NOT know from scripture that the Son was created as his very first creation. In fact He possessed Him before His works of old.

Kathy

possessed him only means that ” HE WAS THERE ” you cannot possessed some thing that does not exist ,right yes

and sins God possessed him “BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD “

AND NOT AFTER this would be confirmed by Paul in ;
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

and it is for those reasons that the son was the only possible candidate to be chosen to save the human race from sin,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,18:04)

Anyone can link scriptures together and make them submit to some crazy theory like you have shown with your satan example.

And that is exactly what YOU are doing – from our perspective.

It is clear all throughout scripture that Jesus is the Messiah, Servant, Prophet, Priest, Lamb and Son OF our ONE Most High God, Jehovah.

Yet you have linked opposing scriptures together to submit the crazy theory that there are TWO equal Most High Gods, and that one of them is the Servant, Messiah, Prophet, Priest, Lamb, and Son OF the other one.

Kathi, Jehovah your God is one. He (not “they”) has a Son named Jesus. We call him Jesus Christ because he is the anointed one OF that ONE Most High God, Jehovah.

Can't you just leave it at ONE Most High God, and the Son who He exalted to the second highest position in the universe?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,18:32) Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:20) I suppose YHVH our righteousness could be written and that one name cover all three, God the Father, the city and Jesus. So then the name of the Father is also “Jehovah is our Righteousness”?   Kathi, in 3:12, Jesus clearly speaks of writing THREE different names on them. In 14:1, Jesus clearly speaks of writing TWO different names on them. Mike, The name/names represent three. There is nothing that says they are different. If a father and a son were named Jones and you had Jones written on your forehead, then you had the name of the father and the name of the son written on your forehead.

If they were both named “Jones”, it wouldn't be said that I will write on you the name of my father (Jones), AND I will write on you MY name (Jones).

And you can't even take it as “the name of me AND my God”, because the two parts are completely separated from each other in the text.

Believe what you want, Kathi. You will anyway. Just know that you have NOTHING that says Jesus was EVER named “YHWH”……….. and at the same time, you are IGNORING the scriptures I show you that make it CLEAR that Jesus and his and our God have DIFFERENT names.

[4Thomas]

Hi Mike,

Quote

But there are many gods described in the scriptures, and not one of them is ever called a “false god” or a “so-called god” in any scripture.

How many idols and false gods are mentioned in the bible, Mike God even had to destroy the snake on the pole as the Jews started to worship this also…

Satan is a fallen archangel he is the father of lies and the highest false God of them all. He is the father of all false Gods.

God is one and he eternally expresses and generates his Son/Word. The Sons derives his essence/nature soley form the Father alone, they are one. Just as your Body spirit and soul are one.
Or just as Adam and eve are one from the same flesh. Eve and adam are equal in nature/essence yet Adam has higher authority he is greater in Authority. The Son comes from the Father so the Father has greater authoriy ALSO this is especially obvious when Jesus humbled himself to become flesh.

Mike please read this following scripture and explain to me whats happens to ALL other Gods except the one who created the heavens by his word/breath.

After explaining that there is absolutely NONE like God
Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

“THE” Gods are false Gods this is why they will perish.

So if you think Gabriel and Michael are gods, scripture teaches that ALL gods [ that would include Gabriel and Michael if you believe they are gods] will perish because they didn't make/create the heavens and earth. Unless you think Gabriel and Michael created the heavens with the Father and his breath/word?

Mike I believe scripture teaches explicitly that there is only one “true” god, and all others are false gods with Satan being the Father of them.

Do you have a single scripture to show a single true God except Yahweh?

Mike, please show me who and what YOU believe Jesus is in the Old Testament before he humbled himslef to take of flesh.

Life in the Word/Son and in his name.
Daniel

[kerwin]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,05:50)

Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2013,18:24) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,04:26) Kerwin, It is written here: Rev 3:21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Quote Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah? No, but they are identified as belonging to Jehovah. His name is written on their forheads. LU, So does believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them each a Jesus? So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not? Kerwin, Quote So does believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them each a Jesus? No, that indicates that they are conquerers like Jesus. Quote So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not? I believe that the self-existing eternal nature means you are YHVH and the head or part of the head. The body of believers do not have original eternal nature and thus would not be YHVH but can be identified as belonging to YHVH.

LU,

Quote

No, that indicates that they are conquerers like Jesus.

It appears you are applying different meanings to words associated with Jesus than those same words associated with believers.

Quote

I believe that the self-existing eternal nature means you are YHVH and the head or part of the head. The body of believers do not have original eternal nature and thus would not be YHVH but can be identified as belonging to YHVH.

Ephesians 3:14-15
King James Version (KJV)

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

So according to this the whole family is named of the Father. Why doesn't that mean each member is named Jehovah.

[Lightenup]

Kerwin,

Quote

It appears you are applying different meanings to words associated with Jesus than those same words associated with believers.

How so?

Quote

So according to this the whole family is named of the Father. Why doesn't that mean each member is named Jehovah

That would be pretty confusing don't you think? We will have His name on our foreheads. I understand this to mean that we will be identified as belonging to Him. For some reason a herd of cattle comes to mind that have all been branded by the ranch symbol to indicate that they belong to the specific ranch. I don't know if that relates to the same idea of having His name on our forehead or not.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,20:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2013,18:32) Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:20) I suppose YHVH our righteousness could be written and that one name cover all three, God the Father, the city and Jesus. So then the name of the Father is also “Jehovah is our Righteousness”?   Kathi, in 3:12, Jesus clearly speaks of writing THREE different names on them. In 14:1, Jesus clearly speaks of writing TWO different names on them. Mike, The name/names represent three. There is nothing that says they are different. If a father and a son were named Jones and you had Jones written on your forehead, then you had the name of the father and the name of the son written on your forehead. If they were both named “Jones”, it wouldn't be said that I will write on you the name of my father (Jones), AND I will write on you MY name (Jones). And you can't even take it as “the name of me AND my God”, because the two parts are completely separated from each other in the text. Believe what you want, Kathi.  You will anyway.  Just know that you have NOTHING that says Jesus was EVER named “YHWH”……….. and at the same time, you are IGNORING the scriptures I show you that make it CLEAR that Jesus and his and our God have DIFFERENT names.

Mike,
The only thing that seems clear is that believers will have the name of three things, i.e. two persons and one city on their forehead. Whether or not that is three different names or one name that represents all three is not clear.

The point is that the saints will be identified as belonging to the Father, the Son and the holy city, imo.

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,20:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,06:38) Pierre, We do NOT know from scripture that the Son was created as his very first creation. In fact He possessed Him before His works of old. Kathy possessed him only means that ” HE WAS THERE ” you cannot possessed some thing that does not exist ,right yes and sins God possessed him “BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD “ AND NOT AFTER  this would be confirmed by Paul in ; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. and it is for those reasons that the son was the only possible candidate to be chosen to save the human race from sin,

Pierre,
That all is true and none of it negates an eternal existence and none of it teaches a created existence where there was a time when the Son did not exist.

[mikeboll64]

Rev 3:12
I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Kathi, do you think those bolded conjunctions are there just for fun?

Also, what is Jesus' NEW name?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,05:19)

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,20:03) Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,06:38) Pierre, We do NOT know from scripture that the Son was created as his very first creation. In fact He possessed Him before His works of old. Kathy possessed him only means that ” HE WAS THERE ” you cannot possessed some thing that does not exist ,right yes and sins God possessed him “BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD “ AND NOT AFTER  this would be confirmed by Paul in ; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. and it is for those reasons that the son was the only possible candidate to be chosen to save the human race from sin, Pierre, That all is true and none of it negates an eternal existence and none of it teaches a created existence where there was a time when the Son did not exist.

Kathi

show me just like Mike show you in scriptures

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ June 24 2013,19:21)

Mike I believe scripture teaches explicitly that there is only one “true” god, and all others are false gods with Satan being the Father of them. Do you have a single scripture to show a single true God except Yahweh?

First of all, Satan is NEVER in ANY scripture EVER called a “false god”.  He IS called a god, both by Paul in 2 Cor 4:4, and by Jehovah Himself in the following:

2 Kings 1:6
Thus saith the LORD, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that thou sendest to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron?

You have to ask yourself what IS a god?  The Hebrew word “el” simply means “mighty one”.  Is Satan a REAL mighty one who has REAL power?  Or is he a FALSE mighty one whose powers are non-existent because they are FALSE?

As for the scripture you asked for, I'll list just one for now:

Psalm 8
4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honour.

The Hebrew word translated in the NIV above as “heavenly beings” is really “elohim”.  David said that Jehovah made human beings a little lower than the gods, Daniel.

Who do you suppose these gods are?  The writer of Hebrews seems to think they are angels, because that is the word he uses when he quotes this psalm.  Do you agree with him?

If not, who do YOU think those gods were?

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2013,05:52)

Pierre, 1 John 1 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

yes but you forgot to incorporate Colossian1;16,17

and eternel does not mean that he ad no beginning ,only God almighty ad NO beginning

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2013,18:25)

Rev 3:12 I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Kathi, do you think those bolded conjunctions are there just for fun? Also, what is Jesus' NEW name?

Mike,
Jeremiah 23
5Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah 33
14Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up to David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name with which she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Ezra 9:15
O Jehovah, the God of Israel, thou art righteous; for we are left a remnant that is escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our guiltiness; for none can stand before thee because of this.

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