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Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,10:21) Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2013,20:18) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,07:12) Pierre,
Do you realize that an action is not an object?
yes i do but no action no object ,the way i understand it ;action then out comes the object ,no action ,no object right ?
Pierre,
I clearly remember going through the begetting act 5 times and the 'objects' that were begotten were certainly in existence, alive and kicking for months prior to that action.An action is not a creation.
The eternal life (1 John 1:2) that was with the Father was brought forth from the Father to be the agent of our creation in order for the creation of God to happen. In that way, I believe He could be considered the beginning of the creation of God, not because He was created as you think, but because, He, as the agent was brought forth to create.
Think about this analogy:
The beginning of the Summer Olympics is not an olympic event but an opening ceremony.The beginning of the creation of God is not a creation of God but the bringing forth of the eternally living agent of the creation of God.
KathyAn action is not a creation
What is it then ,God was alone and then start to acting = creation 
Back to two gods ?The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist.
YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.
Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,10:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2013,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,16:44) LU, Does Jehovah sit on David's throne?
Yes Kerwin, Jehovah the Son sits on David's throne according to His role as the Son of Man.
LU,Your teaching confuses me as it seems you have two Gods though I believe you say you have one. I have trouble seeing how Jehovah could lower himself to sit on David's throne, even under an expanded kingdom when his kingdom is always superior.
I have no trouble understanding how the king of Israel and Judea can have his territory expanded until he is king of all things in heaven and on earth.
Kerwin,
Sorry to confuse you.Two persons are called Jehovah (the Father gave His name to His eternal Son). They form one Jehovah Godhead and in that way they are one God. One of the persons (Jehovah, the Father) sent the other (Jehovah the Son) to lower Himself and empty Himself to become a man, to live perfectly and fulfill the law, to be tempted and yet without sin, to voluntarily give up His fleshly life to die on a cross in order to bear our transgressions and redeem our souls. He, Jehovah the Son, continues to be both God, the Son and the Son of man who sits on David's throne and His Father's throne as well.
You say that you have trouble seeing how someone that is higher than the angels, even Jehovah the Son, could lower themselves to be lower than the angels and become human. Well, Kerwin, that is called love and a desire to be with us and save us. He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
I hope that helps.
LU,I was not talking of changing kinds, though that in itself introduces the concept that beast is equal to a human but is limited by his body, I was speaking of authority. A man can have different levels of authority and a kingdom can grow from one city to a multitude of cities in heaven and on earth.
In such a pattern was David, a human, promised to have a son, as of the flesh, sit on his thrown. So Jesus, David's Son in the flesh sits on David's throne and the kingdom has grown larger.
God has a higher throne than David and Jesus calls him God so why would God give up his superior throne to an inferior one? You seem to believe there is a created God and an uncreated God and that God transformed Jesus into a version of himself so where there was one God there is now two Gods. You seem to base that conclusion on the fact Scripture declares God gave Jesus his name.
If I have misunderstood your beliefs let me know.
Who is the Godbody?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,12:37) The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist. YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.
Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation?
your theory, means that God was at one point never alone,that creation did not start with the creation of his son “THE WORD” that became Jesus Christ, this is contradicting the scriptures ,in favor of human opinions,of cause God is the ALMIGHTY GOD , and Christ being his son ,this alone would make him a almighty god,also being the first of creation ,would also make him a god to all those created after him and through him ,is it not
Quote (Lightenup @ June 22 2013,22:39) He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
Actually, he was exalted by his and our God to a glory that even EXCEEDS the glory he had when the universe was created through him – the glory he had before he emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being. (Hebrews 1:4)And even after this exaltation by his and our God, he STILL isn't God Almighty. Instead, he is the servant OF God Almighty who has been blessed with sitting at the right hand OF God Almighty.
Kathi, there is but ONE Most High God. Jesus isn't Him, but the one who sits at His right hand.
Hi Mike,
Just catching up and reading a few things will reply to you tomorrow.
Take care.Life in the Word and in his name
DanielQuote (terraricca @ June 23 2013,10:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,12:37) The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist. YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.
Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation?
your theory, means that God was at one point never alone,that creation did not start with the creation of his son “THE WORD” that became Jesus Christ, this is contradicting the scriptures ,in favor of human opinions,of cause God is the ALMIGHTY GOD , and Christ being his son ,this alone would make him a almighty god,also being the first of creation ,would also make him a god to all those created after him and through him ,is it not
Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone.Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2013,06:38) Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,10:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2013,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,16:44) LU, Does Jehovah sit on David's throne?
Yes Kerwin, Jehovah the Son sits on David's throne according to His role as the Son of Man.
LU,Your teaching confuses me as it seems you have two Gods though I believe you say you have one. I have trouble seeing how Jehovah could lower himself to sit on David's throne, even under an expanded kingdom when his kingdom is always superior.
I have no trouble understanding how the king of Israel and Judea can have his territory expanded until he is king of all things in heaven and on earth.
Kerwin,
Sorry to confuse you.Two persons are called Jehovah (the Father gave His name to His eternal Son). They form one Jehovah Godhead and in that way they are one God. One of the persons (Jehovah, the Father) sent the other (Jehovah the Son) to lower Himself and empty Himself to become a man, to live perfectly and fulfill the law, to be tempted and yet without sin, to voluntarily give up His fleshly life to die on a cross in order to bear our transgressions and redeem our souls. He, Jehovah the Son, continues to be both God, the Son and the Son of man who sits on David's throne and His Father's throne as well.
You say that you have trouble seeing how someone that is higher than the angels, even Jehovah the Son, could lower themselves to be lower than the angels and become human. Well, Kerwin, that is called love and a desire to be with us and save us. He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
I hope that helps.
LU,I was not talking of changing kinds, though that in itself introduces the concept that beast is equal to a human but is limited by his body, I was speaking of authority. A man can have different levels of authority and a kingdom can grow from one city to a multitude of cities in heaven and on earth.
In such a pattern was David, a human, promised to have a son, as of the flesh, sit on his thrown. So Jesus, David's Son in the flesh sits on David's throne and the kingdom has grown larger.
God has a higher throne than David and Jesus calls him God so why would God give up his superior throne to an inferior one? You seem to believe there is a created God and an uncreated God and that God transformed Jesus into a version of himself so where there was one God there is now two Gods. You seem to base that conclusion on the fact Scripture declares God gave Jesus his name.
If I have misunderstood your beliefs let me know.
Who is the Godbody?
Hi Kerwin,
you said:Quote God has a higher throne than David and Jesus calls him God so why would God give up his superior throne to an inferior one?
Jesus sits on both thrones, Kerwin.Quote You seem to believe there is a created God and an uncreated God and that God transformed Jesus into a version of himself so where there was one God there is now two Gods. I don't believe Jesus was a created God. I believe that He was the true offspring eternally within God the Father and like the Father as an offspring tends to be.
Quote You seem to base that conclusion on the fact Scripture declares God gave Jesus his name. That is just part of it. The only begotten offspring shares the nature of the Father and one element of the nature of the Father is eternal nature.
Quote Who is the Godbody?
1 Cor 12
One Body with Many Members12For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slavesd or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts,e yet one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2013,12:18) Quote (Lightenup @ June 22 2013,22:39) He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
Actually, he was exalted by his and our God to a glory that even EXCEEDS the glory he had when the universe was created through him – the glory he had before he emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being. (Hebrews 1:4)And even after this exaltation by his and our God, he STILL isn't God Almighty. Instead, he is the servant OF God Almighty who has been blessed with sitting at the right hand OF God Almighty.
Kathi, there is but ONE Most High God. Jesus isn't Him, but the one who sits at His right hand.
The Father and the Son, interdependently are together the Most High YHVH God who is both God of gods and Lord of lords.Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,09:02) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2013,10:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,12:37) The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist. YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.
Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation?
your theory, means that God was at one point never alone,that creation did not start with the creation of his son “THE WORD” that became Jesus Christ, this is contradicting the scriptures ,in favor of human opinions,of cause God is the ALMIGHTY GOD , and Christ being his son ,this alone would make him a almighty god,also being the first of creation ,would also make him a god to all those created after him and through him ,is it not
Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone.
KathyQuote Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone. 1)Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed,
2)he Father and Son were alone.
are those two event the same or different by time
LU,
Quote Jesus sits on both thrones, Kerwin. Where is that witten as I don't remember reading it or getting that idea.
Quote I don't believe Jesus was a created God. I believe that He was the true offspring eternally within God the Father and like the Father as an offspring tends to be. I was going by your claim God gave his name to Jesus as that infers there was a time his Jesus did not have his name. Was he Jehovah before he received God's name.
One Body with Many Members
Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah?
Kerwin,
It is written here:
Rev 3:21
The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.Quote
Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah?
No, but they are identified as belonging to Jehovah. His name is written on their forheads.Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2013,11:02) Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,09:02) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2013,10:33) Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,12:37) The action was taking someone who was eternal life, from one place and moving Him to another…He was brought forth. The action was not bringing someone to life that didn't exist. YHVH was alone…YHVH is BOTH the God of gods AND the Lord of lords.
Quote Back to two gods ? You have said that you knew Jesus was a theos for many years. Why do you have a question mark as if it is something you don't believe? You believe that the Father is a theos and that the Son is a theos. Right? How many theos does that make? How many theos do you believe in for your eternal salvation?
your theory, means that God was at one point never alone,that creation did not start with the creation of his son “THE WORD” that became Jesus Christ, this is contradicting the scriptures ,in favor of human opinions,of cause God is the ALMIGHTY GOD , and Christ being his son ,this alone would make him a almighty god,also being the first of creation ,would also make him a god to all those created after him and through him ,is it not
Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone.
KathyQuote Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed, the Father and Son were alone. 1)Jehovah who is BOTH God of gods AND Lord of lords, was alone…indeed,
2)he Father and Son were alone.
are those two event the same or different by time
They are two ways of saying the same thing which eternally existed in that way before creation.A physical word picture of that which is imperfect but might help, is the concept of a pregnant woman. If a nine month pregnant woman is in a room and no one else is in there, is she alone or with someone? Couldn't both be correct? It depends on your perspective. She is considered 'with child' yet she is alone in the room. If her child was born and with her, they could still be considered alone in the room.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 23 2013,21:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2013,12:18) Quote (Lightenup @ June 22 2013,22:39) He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
Actually, he was exalted by his and our God to a glory that even EXCEEDS the glory he had when the universe was created through him – the glory he had before he emptied himself to be made in the likeness of a human being. (Hebrews 1:4)And even after this exaltation by his and our God, he STILL isn't God Almighty. Instead, he is the servant OF God Almighty who has been blessed with sitting at the right hand OF God Almighty.
Kathi, there is but ONE Most High God. Jesus isn't Him, but the one who sits at His right hand.
The Father and the Son, interdependently are together the Most High YHVH God who is both God of gods and Lord of lords.
That's not true, Kathi. It is just something you made up and like to tell yourself and others.Please address the fact that the Most High God exalted Jesus to an even higher position than the one he left to be made in the likeness of a human being. (Heb 1:4)
Well Mike,
Scripture tells us that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords and that there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ…also that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords. So, I didn't make it up…it is written.The position that Jesus gained that He did not have before was the position of the kinsman redeemer and High Priest that could sympathize with mankind. He had to become man and suffer and die and walk blamelessly as a man in order to have those positions. The Father does not have those positions but Jesus does. The Father needs Jesus and Jesus needs the Father for the whole plan of salvation to be offered and that indicates an interdependence. They both depend on the other.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,16:26) Quote Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah?
No, but they are identified as belonging to Jehovah. His name is written on their forheads.
So they belong to Jehovah just like Jesus belongs to Jehovah?Revelation 14:1 NRSV
…… with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.Kathi, do you think the 144,000 will have “YHWH” written TWO times on each forehead – once for “YHWH the Father” and a second time for “YHWH the Son”?
As you can see, even after being exalted by his and our God to the highest position he has ever held, Jesus STILL has a name that is different from his and our God.
Here is some more confirmation:
Revelation 3:12 NIV
………I will write on them the name of my God……. and I will also write on them my new name.Mike,
Rev 3:12
The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.I suppose YHVH our righteousness could be written and that one name cover all three, God the Father, the city and Jesus.
It might be interesting to study about names written on foreheads and what the Hebrews understood about this.
Do you know of any scripture that says that the Father's name is written on the Son's forehead?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2013,04:26) Kerwin,
It is written here:
Rev 3:21
The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.Quote
Are the members of the Godbody also Jehovah?
No, but they are identified as belonging to Jehovah. His name is written on their forheads.
LU,So does believers sitting on Jesus' throne make them each a Jesus?
So you believe being part of the Godhead means you are a Jehovah but being part of the Godbody does not?Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,16:47) Well Mike,
Scripture tells us that Jehovah is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords and that there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ…also that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords. So, I didn't make it up…it is written.
Using that criteria, I could also make the claim that Jehovah is Satan. Because “Jehovah” is written. And the word “is” is written. And “Satan” is also written. Therefore, I could lump those words together and claim “Jehovah is Satan”.After all, that's all you're doing.
You're taking a scripture that calls the one and only Jehovah (the FATHER) “the God of gods and Lord of lords”, and adding Jesus into that statement that was made exclusively about the Father.
Then you're taking a completely different scripture that calls Jesus “the Lord of lords”, and applying it to that first statement that was made exclusively about the Father.
But just think, Jesus is not only the Lord of lords, but also the King of kings, right? And Nebuchadnezzar is also “the King of kings”, right? Should we then add those two completely different contexts together, and start preaching that Jesus is a “Lordhead” made up of himself (“the Lord of lords”) AND Nebuchadnezzar (“the King of kings”)? And that the two of them act as one in the “Divine Lordhead”?
Of course not. So why then would you do the same exact thing with God and his SERVANT Jesus Christ?
I'll tell you what, if you can show to me that the Father ALONE is NOT both a God of gods AND a Lord of lords, I'll be interested in hearing more about your theory.
Can you do that? Of course not. But if you could, my next challenge would be for you to show that Jesus ALONE is the ONLY Lord over other lords in the entire scriptures. In that way, we could be sure that the “Lord of lords” part of Deut 10:17 absolutely MUST BE talking about none other than Jesus.
Do you think you can do that? Of course not. And since you cannot do either of these things, it becomes clear that all you've done is linked words from two entirely different contexts together – like I did when I claimed “Jehovah is Satan”.
That is really not the stuff that I would build my doctrine around.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,16:47) The position that Jesus gained that He did not have before was the position of the kinsman redeemer and High Priest that could sympathize with mankind.
Hmmmm………. Where can I read this in scripture, Kathi? And how does being a kinsman redeemer and High Priest for human beings mean Jesus is now exalted higher than he ever was before?And more importantly, how can GOD MOST HIGH, who you say Jesus is, EVER be exalted to a higher position than GOD MOST HIGH?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 24 2013,17:20) I suppose YHVH our righteousness could be written and that one name cover all three, God the Father, the city and Jesus.
So then the name of the Father is also “Jehovah is our Righteousness”?Kathi, in 3:12, Jesus clearly speaks of writing THREE different names on them.
In 14:1, Jesus clearly speaks of writing TWO different names on them.
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