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Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,16:44) LU, Does Jehovah sit on David's throne?
Yes Kerwin, Jehovah the Son sits on David's throne according to His role as the Son of Man.Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:05) So Pierre, there were two theos in the beginning before creation, right?
wen it says in the beginning this means the beginning ,not before the beginning God is alone ,but not at the beginningQuote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:20) But Jesus was there before the creation, right Pierre?
kathyJesus the son of God HIS THE BEGINNING OF CREATION
PRIOR TO THE BEGINNING THEIR WAS ONLY GOD THE FATHER ,
AFTER THE BEGINNING THEIR WAS ALL SORTS OF CREATION DONE THROUGH CHRIST ,JUST AS SCRIPTURES SAYS
Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:42) Pierre, do you believe that Jesus was begotten before creation?
yes I do ,first of God's creationQuote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,06:09) So, Pierre, was the act of begetting the first step of the creation of God, in your opinion?
YES IT WAS, the son is the first of the father creationQuote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,22:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2013,18:56) Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2013,22:44) Well, we are making progress!
How so?
You agree that Jesus is the theos that is our righteousness.
I don't see how that is “progress”, but okay.Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,07:12) Pierre,
Do you realize that an action is not an object?
yes i do but no action no object ,the way i understand it ;action then out comes the object ,no action ,no object right ?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) When i say a man of flesh, what i mean is a human.
So, just to be clear, you DON'T believe Jesus was “God in the flesh”? YES or NO?Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) Please read that in context, scripture is clear that this is a revealtion ABOUT “the word” becomming flesh
Okay, I agree with that. But that doesn't change the fact that it STILL lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things, right?Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) Mike, archangels DONT have the same nature as the Almighty Father, this is nonsense – only the “one and only” true Son has the same nature. Just like you and your Son – common sense.
Actually, common sense tells us that if I am of human nature, my firstborn son would be of human nature. But any subsequent sons I had would ALSO be of human nature. Even if I adopted another human as my son, he and I would still share that same human nature.How is that you think only God's FIRSTBORN spirit son has God's spirit nature – and His subsequent spirit sons do NOT have that nature?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) ***Mike its the Sons hands that created the heavens****
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.This is Peter and John praying. Luke says they prayed to “God”. They begin their prayer to “God” by crediting Him with creating all things, right?
So, did they think Jesus was a “part of” this God they prayed to – the one they credited with making everything?
Acts 4
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
Obviously not. Instead, they listed Jesus (twice) as the holy servant OF the “God” who created all things. (Oh, and this one is NOT a “revelation about the Son of man”. This prayer was prayed AFTER Jesus had been exalted to the highest position he has ever held………. at the right hand OF God.)
And as an important side note, notice that the “God” to whom Peter and John prayed created ALL THINGS. And if Jesus is clearly listed as someone OTHER THAN that God who created ALL THINGS, then Jesus has no choice but to BE one of the ALL THINGS created BY that God, right?
See Daniel? This is how I do things. You say you want to have an HONEST debate? I'm hoping you prove those words to be true.
So far I have showed you two scriptures (there are many more) that CLEARLY distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “Jehovah”, “God”, and “the One who created all things”. What will you do with those scriptures? My hope is that you are willing to learn from them.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) Mike, you believe in a angel called Yahweh who you believe was Jesus in the old testament. Do you no longer believe this now???
I believe that many angels of YHWH were addressed as “YHWH” or “God” in the OT – merely for being the representative OF God at that time.There is no clear evidence that Jesus was EVER one of those angels. I don't claim that he absolutely wasn't, but Hebrews 1:2 seems to suggest that God has only spoken to us through His Son Jesus Christ “in these last days” – not “in the past”.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) How many times have a TOTALLY proven that this
*****YAHWEH*******
*****SHOWED*******
*****ALL***********
*****HIS GLORY******
Before we go further into details and commentaries and lexicons on this passage, please answer this simple question: Is it your intention to say that Jesus is a “YHWH” that CAN BE seen by human eyes, while the Father is a “YHWH” that CANNOT be seen by human eyes? YES or NO?Also,
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time………Do you think you and the Apostle John share the same understanding of that Exodus passage? Because he thinks that NO MAN has EVER seen God, while YOU say Moses DID see Him. One of you is obviously understanding that Exodus passage the wrong way, right?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) …..sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
Who do you suppose the “Majesty on High” is, Daniel? You know, the one Jesus sits at the right hand OF.Quote (4Thomas @ June 19 2013,00:58) What I REALLY need an answer for is why on earth would Jesus say for the sake of the Pharisees salvation that no one has ever seen the Father at any time, when there are example of this everywhere and even Yahweh calling himself “the Almighty God Yahweh” when being seen.
So then you ARE saying that Jesus is a “lesser version” of YHWH, one who CAN be seen – while the Father (the “greater version”) CANNOT be seen?Daniel, I absolutely DON'T want to end this debate. I've barely scratched the surface of all the things I want to show you from scripture.
I aim to show you two main things:
1. The scriptures that Trinitarians use as proof that Jesus is God Almighty are not really proof of such a thing.
2. There are a hundred times more scriptures that CLEARLY prove that Jesus is NOT God Almighty.
You have only just begun to have your very first “Jesus is God” scriptures refuted. And I have barely begun to show you the MANY scriptures that CLEARLY say Jesus is NOT God.
We can't stop now. But we must narrow our posts down. These posts and responses are getting huge…… which I hate.
So YOU pick the first thing you want to discuss all the way to a conclusion – and then we can move on to the next thing.
Do you want to go to the end of the “Moses saw God” thing? Do you want to conclude the “Jesus
created all things” point? Do you want to start addressing my points about how God surely knew how we, as humans, would understand a father/son relationship BEFORE He ever decided to reveal to us that Jesus is His son?You pick any ONE topic you want to continue with, and we'll discuss that ONE thing until we've SCRIPTURALLY concluded it.
peace,
mikeHi Mike,
Thanks for your reply. I have to go home as I been working late so cant reply. Also away with the family so it maybe a few days before I reply, but I will reply.Quote
Before we go further into details and commentaries and lexicons on this passage, please answer this simple question: Is it your intention to say that Jesus is a “YHWH” that CAN BE seen by human eyes, while the Father is a “YHWH” that CANNOT be seen by human eyes? YES or NO?Yes, I believe we can't access the Father directly.
with context
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.
Also,
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time………Here John is talking about the Father. Because it was John that wrote in the beinginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God.
Also John 1:18 doesn't have the definite article like John 1 and all those other verses that apply to the Father alone.
my faith is simple there is only one true God and Jesus is either a true god or a false God. Just like scripture where it says the gods that havn't made the heavens they will perish. We know by hebrews that it was truly the Sons hands that made the heavens and the father also teaches that the Son will never perish.
Take care and I appreciate your reply.
Will talk when I get backLife in the Son and in his name
DanielQuote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,16:44) LU, Does Jehovah sit on David's throne?
Yes Kerwin, Jehovah the Son sits on David's throne according to His role as the Son of Man.
LU,Your teaching confuses me as it seems you have two Gods though I believe you say you have one. I have trouble seeing how Jehovah could lower himself to sit on David's throne, even under an expanded kingdom when his kingdom is always superior.
I have no trouble understanding how the king of Israel and Judea can have his territory expanded until he is king of all things in heaven and on earth.
Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2013,11:30) LU, Your teaching confuses me as it seems you have two Gods though I believe you say you have one.
No,She comes right out and proclaims TWO individual Jehovahs.
(My spell checker is red-flagging the plural “Jehovahs” that I just wrote. Even my spell checker knows there is only one of them, and that it shouldn't be a plural word.
)Quote (4Thomas @ June 20 2013,01:35) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
Is it your intention to say that Jesus is a “YHWH” that CAN BE seen by human eyes, while the Father is a “YHWH” that CANNOT be seen by human eyes? YES or NO?
Yes, I believe we can't access the Father directly.
Okay. So now we both agree that Jesus, the servant OF the Father, is a lesser god than the Father is, right? Because no man can see the MOST HIGH God, the Father……. but men CAN see the less high god, Jesus, right?Are we in agreement?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 20 2013,01:35) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Also,
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time………
1. Here John is talking about the Father.2. Because it was John that wrote in the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God.
1. Agreed. John is talking about the Father. Yet he doesn't say “No one has seen the Father person of the Godhead“, does he? Nope. He just says, “No one has seen God“.
2. John never intended for anyone to think that our ONE God could be with our ONE God, Daniel. “And the Word was God” is a faulty translation of the Greek words. Instead, John spoke of a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 20 2013,01:35) my faith is simple there is only one true God and Jesus is either a true god or a false God.
There are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth, Daniel. (1 Cor 8:5) Most of those gods in heaven are God's own righteous spirit sons like Michael and Gabriel. And while they ARE gods who are not the MOST HIGH God, they are NOT “false gods”.The Trinitarians are the ones who began the flawed teaching that the Bible LITERALLY speaks of only ONE god. They did this because they knew if they could convince people of this blatant lie, they could then also convince people that Jesus must BE that ONE god – or else a “false god”.
But there are many gods described in the scriptures, and not one of them is ever called a “false god” or a “so-called god” in any scripture.
See you in a few days.
Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2013,20:18) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,07:12) Pierre,
Do you realize that an action is not an object?
yes i do but no action no object ,the way i understand it ;action then out comes the object ,no action ,no object right ?
Pierre,
I clearly remember going through the begetting act 5 times and the 'objects' that were begotten were certainly in existence, alive and kicking for months prior to that action.An action is not a creation.
The eternal life (1 John 1:2) that was with the Father was brought forth from the Father to be the agent of our creation in order for the creation of God to happen. In that way, I believe He could be considered the beginning of the creation of God, not because He was created as you think, but because, He, as the agent was brought forth to create.
Think about this analogy:
The beginning of the Summer Olympics is not an olympic event but an opening ceremony.The beginning of the creation of God is not a creation of God but the bringing forth of the eternally living agent of the creation of God.
Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2013,12:30) Quote (Lightenup @ June 20 2013,05:07) Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,16:44) LU, Does Jehovah sit on David's throne?
Yes Kerwin, Jehovah the Son sits on David's throne according to His role as the Son of Man.
LU,Your teaching confuses me as it seems you have two Gods though I believe you say you have one. I have trouble seeing how Jehovah could lower himself to sit on David's throne, even under an expanded kingdom when his kingdom is always superior.
I have no trouble understanding how the king of Israel and Judea can have his territory expanded until he is king of all things in heaven and on earth.
Kerwin,
Sorry to confuse you.Two persons are called Jehovah (the Father gave His name to His eternal Son). They form one Jehovah Godhead and in that way they are one God. One of the persons (Jehovah, the Father) sent the other (Jehovah the Son) to lower Himself and empty Himself to become a man, to live perfectly and fulfill the law, to be tempted and yet without sin, to voluntarily give up His fleshly life to die on a cross in order to bear our transgressions and redeem our souls. He, Jehovah the Son, continues to be both God, the Son and the Son of man who sits on David's throne and His Father's throne as well.
You say that you have trouble seeing how someone that is higher than the angels, even Jehovah the Son, could lower themselves to be lower than the angels and become human. Well, Kerwin, that is called love and a desire to be with us and save us. He isn't lower than the angels anymore. He is back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world began.
I hope that helps.
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