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Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,10:48) Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2013,20:16) Quote (Lightenup @ June 18 2013,02:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2013,21:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 10 2013,11:15) I don't need to force anything Mike. He who has the eyes to see, can see it.
In this case, he who has vivid imagination can see it.
Jesus has the title “Jehovah is our Righteousness”, just like Israel does. To read anything else into it is simply wishful thinking.
Jeremiah 23:6 NET ©
Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety and Israel will live in security. This is the name he will go by: ‘The Lord has provided us with justice.’ 4Footnote #4:
The Hebrew word translated “justice” here is very broad in its usage………..Here it probably sums up the justice that the LORD provides through raising up this ruler, as well as the safety, security, and well-being that result……..
Why do you suppose the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars of NETNotes very rarely support your “Jesus is God proof texts”? After all, these people also believe Jesus is God Almighty, yet they often go as far as to say, Any claim that these words somehow prove the Trinity Godhead is simply wishful thinking.
And that IS what you've been doing for years, right? Painstakingly searching the scriptures for any words you can “wishful think” into saying Jesus is God Almighty, right?
You should stop, Kathi. It's well founded in scripture that Jesus is the Son OF the Most High God. Oh, he's also the servant, lamb, prophet, priest and angel OF the Most High God.
Just stick with that, okay?
It is funny to me that you admit that the translators believe Jesus to be God Almighty and you know that the 'G' in God is capitalized in their translation. Yet you use them to try to prove that Jesus is not God Almighty. The truth that Jesus is YHVH the Son does not depend only on this one verse obviously. However, the Hebrew in this verse is similar to many compound names for YHVH. It would be interesting to see the NET notes on those others.Do you admit that Jesus is a theos and that He is our righteousness? Yes or No?
LU,Joshua and Jesus are the same name in different languages. Is Joshua salvation. Yes as he led the conquest of Canaan. Never the less though his name is God is salvation, he is not Jehovah.
Kerwin,
Jesus is Jehovah our Righteousness. That name is made up of the tetragrammaton as a word by itself and not as part of a word. That makes it unique to names like Joshua.
LU,I have no idea what the name Jehovah is our righteousness would sound like if I heard it. It may be a Jewish name in common usage as far as I know. It takes on special significance in Jesus because through belief that he is God's heir a human receives righteousness from God. The spirit is literally God's righteousness for those that live by it. None of this is evidence Jesus is God.
Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2013,13:48) None of this is evidence Jesus is God.
That's what it all really boils down to, Kerwin.No Trinitarian “proof text” will ever be enough to overrule the fact that Jesus is the Son, Lamb, Priest, Servant, and Prophet OF the Most High God – not the Most High God Himself. These are things that are CLEARLY taught in scripture.
For me, we need look no further than John 20:17. Our God is whoever Jesus' God is – because we and Jesus both have the same exact God. So if Jesus is not a part of his own God, then he is likewise not a part of our God.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Hi Mike, Question: Who does Jesus mean when he says “my Father” and “my God”?
B) By God as his relationship to his God as a man of flesh.
A “man of flesh”? So then you DON'T believe Jesus was “God on earth”, and “God in the flesh”? That's a good start, Daniel.Anyway, I was looking for a name. Who (by name or title) did Jesus mean when he said “my God”?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Jesus hands created the heavens…….
Isaiah 42
5 This is what the true God, the LORD, says – the one who created the sky and stretched it out, the one who fashioned the earth and everything that lives on it, the one who gives breath to the people on it, and life to those who live on it:6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.It's clear that verses 6 and 7 are a prophecy about the soon to come Messiah (anointed one OF God), right? But notice how it is someone OTHER THAN this Messiah who did all the things listed in verse 5. (The One who created all things is the One who will hold the hand of the other one, and make him a light for the Gentiles.) This is just one of MANY scriptures that CLEARLY list Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Mike, your father isn't superior to you in his human nature………
Daniel, “God Almighty” is not a “nature”. God Almighty is a BEING. And just as me and my father are not the same BEING – Jesus and his Father are likewise not the same BEING.Jesus and his God share the same spirit nature – just as me and my father share the same human nature. And just like MANY different BEINGS share a human nature, many different BEINGS likewise share a spirit nature. Jehovah and Jesus are two of the many.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Its crystal clear that Moses seen Yahweh face to face even though Moses only needed to see Yahweh's form for it to mean that Moses seen Jesus.
Exodus 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”Daniel, do you just not like this scripture or something? Why won't you believe it?
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time…….How can you read these clear scriptures, and then insist that people HAVE seen God? So on top of all the common sense things your doctrine is asking me to ignore, you're now also asking me to ignore clear scriptures? I don't get it. Why?
You need to think your claim through, Daniel. What you are basically saying is that no man can see the “BIG God”………… but there is a “lesser version” of this BIG God that thousands of people, including Moses, HAVE SEEN.
Your own words are making Jesus a LESSER god than his Father – because you claim Jesus is the god we CAN see – while we CAN'T see his Father.
How much sense does that make if they are supposedly “equally Almighty God”?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter, because scripture is clear that no man has EVER seen God Almighty.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,03:01) No Pierre, is he yours?
kathyyou did not see my point ,Satan his the god of this world ,
Christ is called a god but both of them are NOT GOD ALMIGHTY ,they are both created and are so separated from the true creator ,Christ tells us that WE HAVE TO WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH ,NOT HIM (CHRIST)
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE CAN NOT BE CALLED A GOD ,or president or king or ,,,,,,,son of God or son of man,,,,Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 18 2013,18:56) Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2013,22:44) Well, we are making progress!
How so?
You agree that Jesus is the theos that is our righteousness.Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,10:14) But Pierre, if Jesus your god?
KathyHow can Jesus be my God if we both him and I have the same God
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2013,12:11) Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Hi Mike, Question: Who does Jesus mean when he says “my Father” and “my God”?
B) By God as his relationship to his God as a man of flesh.
A “man of flesh”? So then you DON'T believe Jesus was “God on earth”, and “God in the flesh”? That's a good start, Daniel.Anyway, I was looking for a name. Who (by name or title) did Jesus mean when he said “my God”?
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Jesus hands created the heavens…….
Isaiah 42
5 This is what the true God, the LORD, says – the one who created the sky and stretched it out, the one who fashioned the earth and everything that lives on it, the one who gives breath to the people on it, and life to those who live on it:6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.It's clear that verses 6 and 7 are a prophecy about the soon to come Messiah (anointed one OF God), right? But notice how it is someone OTHER THAN this Messiah who did all the things listed in verse 5. (The One who created all things is the One who will hold the hand of the other one, and make him a light for the Gentiles.) This is just one of MANY scriptures that CLEARLY list Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Mike, your father isn't superior to you in his human nature………
Daniel, “God Almighty” is not a “nature”. God Almighty is a BEING. And just as me and my father are not the same BEING – Jesus and his Father are likewise not the same BEING.Jesus and his God share the same spirit nature – just as me and my father share the same human nature. And just like MANY different BEINGS share a human nature, many different BEINGS likewise share a spirit nature. Jehovah and Jesus are two of the many.
Quote (4Thomas @ June 18 2013,00:40) Its crystal clear that Moses seen Yahweh face to face even though Moses only needed to see Yahweh's form for it to mean that Moses seen Jesus.
Exodus 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”Daniel, do you just not like this scripture or something? Why won't you believe it?
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time…….How can you read these clear scriptures, and then insist that people HAVE seen God? So on top of all the common sense things your doctrine is asking me to ignore, you're now also asking me to ignore clear scriptures? I don't get it. Why?
You need to think your claim through, Daniel. What you are basically saying is that no man can see the “BIG God”………… but there is a “lesser version” of this BIG God that thousands of people, including Moses, HAVE SEEN.
Your own words are making Jesus a LESSER god than his Father – because you claim Jesus is the god we CAN see – while we CAN'T see his Father.
How much sense does that make if they are supposedly “equally Almighty God”?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter, because scripture is clear that no man has EVER seen God Almighty.
Hi Mike,regarding Isaiah 42
Please read that in context, scripture is clear that this is a revealtion ABOUT “the word” becomming flesh
When i say a man of flesh, what i mean is a human.
Jesus is 100% God [Not the Father] he is a true Son so he has the same spirit nature as his Father.Mike, archangels DONT have the same nature as the Almighty Father, this is nonsense – only the “one and only” true Son has the same nature. Just like you and your Son – common sense.
Notice its not a revealtion of the Son's hands that the Father explicity teaches created the Heavens!!!
***Mike its the Sons hands that created the heavens****
So we dont waste time PLEASE dont bring up revealtions about Jesus becomming flesh the messiah.
I want to have a HONEST debate with you and you bringing up such things only shows that you are having to use revealtions about jesus becomming the messiah to try and prove he isn't Yahweh the Son, who is generated SOLELY FROM the Yahweh the Father.
Mike, you believe in a angel called Yahweh who you believe was Jesus in the old testament. Do you no longer believe this now???
Here is the messiah as ***man***
Isaiah 42 >>
English Standard Version——————————————————————————–
The Lord’s Chosen Servant
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him;
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
3 a bruised reed he will not break,
and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
4 He will not grow faint or be discourageda
till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law.Quote
Exodus 33:20
But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”Daniel, do you just not like this scripture or something? Why won't you believe it?
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time…….How many times have a TOTALLY proven that this
*****YAHWEH*******
*****SHOWED*******
*****ALL***********
*****HIS GLORY*********THATS WHY MOSES COULDN'T SEE HIS FACE THIS SINGLE TIME***
Do you get it yet [YES/NO]
?Exodus 33: 19-21
18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19And the Lord said, “I will cause ALL my goodness to pass in front of you,[/b] ….. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
22 When my GLORY passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see
my back; but my face must not be seen.”
So Yahweh CLEARLY mentions that he couldn’t see his face because Yahweh was revealing **ALL** his Goodness. AND Moses had to wait until his GLORY passed by!****IMPORTANT NOTE**** MOSES SEEN YAHWEH**** BECAUSE HE SEEN HIS BACK!
There is no requirement for Moses to have seen Yahwehs face.>>>Jesus said no one has ever seen the Fathers form
>>>Its common sense if you see someones back you see there formAnother important note is that of course Yahweh [The Word] isn’t going to reveal all of his Glory when he speaks to Moses face to face, he would destroy him and leave him as a pile of ashes/vapour [hebrew 1:3]
Mike so why dont you like this scriptures where Yahweh, SPELLS it. Its clear its being spelt out, just read it.
Numbers 12:6-10
New International Version (©2011)
6he [Yahweh] said, “Listen to my words:>> Yahweh says listen to my words he has something important to tell us, we really need to open our hearts and ears
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
>>>Yahweh teaches that many times he has spoken to prophets in visions, e.g the fire in a dream etc.7But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
>>>Yahweh says this is not the case with Moses, this means he didn’t speak to him in a vision or a dream. Now if he didn’t speak to Moses in a dream or vision how did he speak with him???8With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].
>>>Yahweh says he spoke with Moses Face to Face, mouth to mouth. This becomes even more compounding evidence, compounding upon compounding. Not in visions, but face to face AND he sees my form.
he sees the form of the Lord [Yahweh].
HE SEEN THE FORM OF YAHWEH, ***Not in a vision***This is exactly what Jesus the eternal expression says. No-one has ever seen the Father or seen his form
So PLEASE tell me WHAT you want me to believe Jesus is in the OLD TESTAMENT WHEN JESUS SAID >>> For the sake of salvation <<< no one has ever seen the Fathers form.
This is the key, what do you believe mike.
I honestly can't understand why you can't see that the Son is one in nature BECAUSE he derives his nature solely and directly FROM the Father alone.Mike, sometimes I feel that you dont read my posts?? as you keep asking the same question over and over.
It shouldn't take long to work out if Jesus is an archangel or true God in nature.Heb 1:3
Who being the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY,
and the EXPRESS IMAGE [Exact representation]
of his PERSON [Essence/Substance],
and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS
BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER,
when he had BY HIMSELF [G1438] PURGED OUR SINS,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;The Son is a true Son he is the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY which would mean he couldn't reveal ALL his Glory to Moses The Son is the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father
But scripture teaches CLEARLY there is NONE like YAHWEH
Jer 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
Jer 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.All other Gods, “THE” Gods are false Gods they will perish
Mike, are we getting anywhere, i really care for you but if we cant take scripture for what it really says I dont see any point.
If you think I have twisted any **single** scripture please let me know and we can address that.
What I REALLY need an answer for is why on earth would Jesus say for the sake of the Pharisees salvation that no one has ever seen the Father at any time, when there are example of this everywhere and even Yahweh calling himself “the Almighty God Yahweh” when being seen.
Mike i care for you but if you feel you are also wasting your time and you truly believe I am not handling scripture correctly lets end this debate. I'm sorry but i feel you aren't being honest with scripture and if we dont have truth we dont have anything.
You probably feel the same about me?
I'm sorry if you do, i honestly believe what I believe because of scripture BUT you probably do aswell?If this is the case maybe we should just pray for each other??
Take care and have a good day.
Life in the Son, the only way to the Father
DanielPierre,
You asked:Quote How can Jesus be my God if we both him and I have the same God
Answer, for starters:
1. You and all things in heaven and on earth were created through the theos, Jesus.
2. Your salvation and eternal life depends on what the theos, Jesus, did for you and all mankind.
3. This theos, Jesus, is the head of the church which you claim to be a part of.Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,20:38) Pierre,
You asked:Quote How can Jesus be my God if we both him and I have the same God
Answer, for starters:
1. You and all things in heaven and on earth were created through the theos, Jesus.
2. Your salvation and eternal life depends on what the theos, Jesus, did for you and all mankind.
3. This theos, Jesus, is the head of the church which you claim to be a part of.
kathyall those things do not change the fact that he his ONLY the son of God almighty and not GOD almighty of which he his the son of
If God his father want him to be the ultimate god after him and so carrying the full SUPREMACY what is that to me or you or anyone else
does not God do what he wants with what is his Pierre,
I will tell you what that is to me and to you…if you deny who He is you cannot enter the narrow gate. It has eternal implications. He is the only way through the gate. Even the demons believe that He is the Son of God, that is not enough to believe about Him.Now, is He your theos or not?
Quote (Lightenup @ June 19 2013,20:56) Pierre,
I will tell you what that is to me and to you…if you deny who He is you cannot enter the narrow gate. It has eternal implications. He is the only way through the gate. Even the demons believe that He is the Son of God, that is not enough to believe about Him.Now, is He your theos or not?
KATHIhe his my LORD i have but one God and that is Christ father ,
from whom Christ his the son ,
show me in scriptures that what i say is not so ;
what you believe ,i do respect as an opinion,but those are thoughts of men ,not of God ,
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