Who is this Jesus?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,14:00)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 10 2013,19:35) Without an eternal Son you can’t have an eternal Father…… Huh?  You just said Jesus WASN'T the Son in the beginning.  Now you're saying he was the “eternal Son”.  Which is it?

Hi Mike,
What I mean is the Son is an attribute of the Father -Just like Eve is an attribute of Adam.
The Son didn't come from the rib of the Father – Instead scripture teaches the Word/Son is the radiance and expressed substance and image of the Father. Jesus is NOT a Son like an Arch angel, Jesus is the “one and only” expressed image/substance.

See Eve is an attribute of Adam,
Eve came From Adam. Eve is of Adam flesh. eve is the glory of adam.
Mike Eve is created in Gods image aswell not just Adam.
Eve is one flesh with Adam but yet she is a different person to Adam.

Mike, I didn't say it wasn't through the Son I said it was ALSO ***BY** the Son that all things were created.
Have you ever seen the new world translation of these verses how they insert the word “OTHER” 4 times in the sacred scriptures below.

Col 1:16 For BY him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and FOR him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.

1: Yahweh ALONE made the heavens
Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD [Yahweh] ALONE; thou hast MADE heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

2: There is only one God before and after
Isa 43:10 YE ARE MY WITNESSES, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand THAT I AM HE: before me there WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME.

3: All other gods are false Gods and will perish
Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

4: There is no other God beside him, this is the scripture that Jesus referred to when he told the Pharisee that he and the Father are ***one** this was right after saying that THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF HIS HAND OR THE FATHERS HAND. This is why is got them so upset.

Deu 32:39 SEE YE THAT I ALONE AM, and THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, AND THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND.

I will stop there but we also need to get back to the fact that Mose saw Yahweh face to face and seen his form and it wasn't in a vision, there is only one time he couldn't see his face and that was because Moses asked to see Yahwehs Glory so Yahweh passed ALL his glory bfore Moses and had to cover him with his hand. Mike there are many many times that Yahweh spent with Moses, moses and Yahweh where together for 40 nights and days.

I want to get into the scriptures to prove they don't contradict each other but instead they allign perfectly and you just need to read them at face value and believe.

Life in the Son and in his name, the name that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Daniel

Isaiah 45
22“Turn to me and be saved,

all you ends of the earth;

for I am God, and there is no other.

23By myself I have sworn,

my mouth has uttered in all integrity

a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow;

by me every tongue will swear.

24They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone

are deliverance and strength.’ ”

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30)

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well?

Mike,

Actually Scripture states death entered through Adam. That clearly means there was no death before it entered through Adam. I excluded shed cells and plant parts because all living creatures ate vegetation. I could be wrong about the shed cells and whole plants may have been consumed but Scripture does not mention either.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2013,07:20)

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,06:22) Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2013,04:36) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,19:50) Quote (terraricca @ June 10 2013,18:18) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,17:16) Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2013,08:46) Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,08:39) T, Quote K dead as lost of the power for living , but many things died on earth even in Eden ,think about it They ate fruits and plants which means that at least shed parts of plants died.  Other than that I know of nothing that perished. I do know Scripture states both that death entered the world through adam's sin and that creation was subjected to frustration by the same sin. K So animals ad receive eternal live as well T, Animals had eternal life as well as being vegetarians.  Some Scriptures state the lion will lay with the lamb. K how do you know that the animals were living eternally and in your scriptures it says “WILL” this is future ,are you telling me stories to go to sleep T, The whole creature was subjected to vanity  by man's sin. Romans 8:20-21 King James Version (KJV) 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. It is a rather well known Scripture that states the lion will lay with the lamb.   In the beginning it was that way as the lion was not a predator. Isaiah 11:6 King James Version (KJV) 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. and Isaiah 65:25 King James Version (KJV) 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord. kERWIN are trying to deceive me Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. Ro 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. YOU TRY TO MAKE SCRIPTURES SAY ,WHAT IT DOES NOT MEAN ,THEIR IS NO TALK ABOUT ANIMALS BUT MEN ,AND BASED YOUR INTERPRETATION ON EXPECTING THAT THE OTHER IS IGNORANT ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES ARE BUT IN THE FUTURE, T, The last I knew animals were part of the creation. K that is not said by Paul ,Paul was talking about all men ;believers and unbelievers no difference , this is why and give you the context in the scripture you chose

T,

“The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed” sounds like it is subject is “the creation”.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30)

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well?

Mike,

a curse for it is written:

Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:28)

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:12) Mike, I already speculated on the second question saying that when mankind matured he would be free to eat of both trees And WHY would man need to eat of the tree of life, seeing that he was already immortal?   Kerwin, your mind is just not working as good as it used to.

Mike,

When mankind gained maturity they, in accordance with God's command, ate of the tree of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and after that instead of being cut off from the tree of life for there own hope of salvation they eat of it.

The first tree has benefits with the side effect of mortality. The second tree is there only to counteract its side effects.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

Kerwin

Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit,

does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them

if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers ,

now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,05:39)

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Kerwin Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers , now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT

T,

You have a strange way of looking at this passage since I have no idea what redemption of the soul has to do with it. Please show me so I can see where you are coming from.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2013,05:54)

Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,05:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Kerwin Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers , now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT T, You have a strange way of looking at this passage since I have no idea what redemption of the soul has to do with it.  Please show me so I can see where you are coming from.

K

why are you following Christ is he not the one that is use by his father to bring us to be reconciled with our God and creator

did Christ died ? what for is it not to redeem us from our sins

are those things for animals as well

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,13:53)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 10 2013,19:35) Question:  Was Jesus already God's SON when God made the universe through him?  YES or NO? NO So when exactly do you think “God Almighty the Son” changed from being “God Almighty the Son” and became “the Son OF God Almighty”?   (Please show scriptures that support your claim that someone who WAS God Most High became someone who WASN'T God Most High anymore, but the Son OF God Most High.) Also, please reconcile your statement with Hebrews 1:2, which CLEARLY says God created the universe through His Son.  (I mean, how could Jesus NOT have been God's Son when God created the universe if God created the universe THROUGH His Son?) It seems that right off the bat, you are claiming things in direct opposition of what is claimed in Hebrews 1:2.  How do you account for that?  And how would you expect anyone to believe your doctrine if it means we must DISBELIEVE Hebrews 1:2?

Hi Mike,
These are the scriptures that show that Yahweh alone is creator and alone made the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD [Yahweh], your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD [Yahweh], who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by MYSELF,

So Yahweech ALONE stretched out the heavens.

Isaiah 45:
11 Thus says the Lord [Yahweh],
the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come;
will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
12 I made the earth
and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.

And the heavens are the works of the WORD/Son hands.

Hebrews 1:10
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain….

+ all the other scriptures that show that it was BY and Through the Son/Word that all things were created.

Isaiah 45:18
For this is what the LORD [Yahweh] says– he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited– he says: “I am the LORD [Yahweh], and there is NO OTHER.

So Yahweh is revealed as one in the old testament, you don't ever see an arch angel hands being involved in creating the heavens in scripture anywhere, this is because its a man made tradition.

The Holy Spirit and the Son are one with the Father because the Son is the Word and the Holy Spirit is the breath.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD [Yahweh] the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.

It is FROM the Father and then BY and THROUGH the word/breath that actually created the heavens. The Father has no need to create anything, when he has the testament of his power and glory in his Word/Breath, the Lord of Glory. Who one day everyone will proclaim is Lord[Yahweh] to the glory of God the Father.

Psalm 104:30
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.

The New Testament reveals that this one God who is alone is Father [Source], Son/Word [Expressed substance/image] and Holy Spirit/Breath [the expressed relationship and life united in the Father and Son]
The Father is the Source of the whole substance of Yahweh but this substance is eternally expressed/multiplied to reveal his Glory.

Love and Life in the Son,
Daniel

If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ June 11 2013,19:23)

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD [Yahweh], your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD [Yahweh], who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by MYSELF,

Hello there, Daniel!  I hope things are good with you and your family.  

Thanks for the scripture.  I believe that Jehovah alone, and by Himself, DID create all things.  I'm not sure what that has to do with His Son being God Almighty though.

Consider that Jehovah alone, and by Himself, also created YOU.  But He did that THROUGH Adam, Eve, Noah, your grandparents, and your parents, right?

That doesn't mean that any of those people are God Almighty, right?  So why would the fact that Jehovah created all things THROUGH Jesus mean Jesus was God Almighty?

Here are some words from Tertullian – the man who is credited with first using the word “trinity”……….

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

Can you get on board with that simple logic, Daniel?  If so, you can realize that “God” (the one who actually created) is one, and Jesus (the one through whom those things were created) is someone OTHER THAN “God”.

Also consider:

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?

We all have one God and Father who created us.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ June 11 2013,00:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,14:00) Quote (4Thomas @ June 10 2013,19:35) Without an eternal Son you can’t have an eternal Father…… Huh?  You just said Jesus WASN'T the Son in the beginning.  Now you're saying he was the “eternal Son”.  Which is it? Hi Mike, What I mean is the Son is an attribute of the Father -Just like Eve is an attribute of Adam.

Daniel,

We must agree on whether or not the Jesus was the Son of God when the universe was created through him.

Hebrews 1:2 makes it pretty clear that he was. Can we agree that Jesus was already the Son of God long before he was made flesh?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,01:36)

That clearly means there was no death before it entered through Adam.

Therefore, the death of Abel was the result of Adam eating the fruit?

Kerwin, dying from natural causes is what entered the world through Adam's sin. We might have been able to live indefinitely, but Adam sealed the deal for us.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,01:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:28) WHY would man need to eat of the tree of life, seeing that he was already immortal? Mike, The first tree has benefits with the side effect of mortality.  The second tree is there only to counteract its side effects.

So if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge before God told them it was okay to do so, they could have hurried up and ate from the tree of life before God caught them?

Is that why God placed the tree of life there?  Was it God's intention to give them a “sporting chance” of running and reaching the tree of life before God caught up with them – in the case that they did disobey Him and eat of the other tree?

Come on, Kerwin.  The tree of life was there for them to some day eat of and become immortal……. IF they would have continued to obey God.  There is NO sensible reason for it to be there at all if they were originally created immortal.  

It is the same tree of life in New Jerusalem.  People will eat of that tree and gain eternal life. It is eating of the tree that grants eternal life.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,18:22)

T, The last I knew animals were part of the creation.

So are rocks and asteroids. Do you suppose Paul intended for us to think rocks and asteroids have been groaning, waiting in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed?

I also assume, like Pierre, that Paul is talking about human beings in that teaching.

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.”

Are animals also included in these verses, Kerwin?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,05:39)

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Kerwin Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers , now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT

T,

Adam and his kingdom were cursed for his sin. Adam and his kingdom will be delivered by his act of righteousness.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,08:34)

Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,18:22) T, The last I knew animals were part of the creation. So are rocks and asteroids.  Do you suppose Paul intended for us to think rocks and asteroids have been groaning, waiting in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed? I also assume, like Pierre, that Paul is talking about human beings in that teaching. Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” Are animals also included in these verses, Kerwin?

Mike,

They testify of God.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,08:33)

Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,01:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:28) WHY would man need to eat of the tree of life, seeing that he was already immortal? Mike, The first tree has benefits with the side effect of mortality.  The second tree is there only to counteract its side effects. So if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge before God told them it was okay to do so, they could have hurried up and ate from the tree of life before God caught them? Is that why God placed the tree of life there?  Was it God's intention to give them a “sporting chance” of running and reaching the tree of life before God caught up with them – in the case that they did disobey Him and eat of the other tree? Come on, Kerwin.  The tree of life was there for them to some day eat of and become immortal……. IF they would have continued to obey God.  There is NO sensible reason for it to be there at all if they were originally created immortal.   It is the same tree of life in New Jerusalem.  People will eat of that tree and gain eternal life.  It is eating of the tree that grants eternal life.

Mike,

There was no concern of mankind eating the fruit of the tree of life before he ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was fully available to be eaten and they may have eaten it for all we know.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2013,12:45)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 11 2013,19:23) Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD [Yahweh], your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD [Yahweh], who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by MYSELF, Hello there, Daniel!  I hope things are good with you and your family.   Thanks for the scripture.  I believe that Jehovah alone, and by Himself, DID create all things.  I'm not sure what that has to do with His Son being God Almighty though. Consider that Jehovah alone, and by Himself, also created YOU.  But He did that THROUGH Adam, Eve, Noah, your grandparents, and your parents, right? That doesn't mean that any of those people are God Almighty, right?  So why would the fact that Jehovah created all things THROUGH Jesus mean Jesus was God Almighty? Here are some words from Tertullian – the man who is credited with first using the word “trinity”………. He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. Can you get on board with that simple logic, Daniel?  If so, you can realize that “God” (the one who actually created) is one, and Jesus (the one through whom those things were created) is someone OTHER THAN “God”. Also consider: Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? We all have one God and Father who created us.

Hi Mike,
Everyone is great thanks, hope all is well with you and your family. 🙂
Mike we dont create humans, scripture refutes this clearly and many times. Here is just a couple of revelant scriptures

Isaiah 44:24 “This is what the LORD [Yahweh] says– your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Humans have intercourse/sex they dont create humans, God does this with our dna/genome where he.
Its pretty clear that “the Word” is revealed as the Fathers expressed image who need became the Son.

Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

Alligns with the verse he will be called the Son of the most high.
Hebrews CLEARY teaches that it was by the Sons hands that the heavens are made, so it is ALSO ***BY*** the Son as scripture CLEARLY teaches.

10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Was it the Fathers hands that created the heavens or was it the Sons hands that created them???

the heavens are the work of your hands.

I think its a sin to try and deny jesus by saying that we are creaters of human beings. The father didn't give the Son any tools to create the heavens, the Son created them because is the the Lord of glory.
Is it the hands of humans that create our children or the hands of Yahweh that create them? Scripture teaches the truth.

Psalm 119:73 Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.

I have the writtings from the early church Fathers, I got them about 8 years ago when they where free on esword. I have an old copy of esword. I have looked into the following.

Justin Martyr, -died about 165 C.E
Irenaeus, -died about 200 C.E
Clement of Alexandria, -died about 215 C.E
Tertullian, -died about 230 C.E
Hippolytus, -died about 235 C.E
Origen, -died about 250 C.E

Its very clear they believe that “the Word” was God, never once do they say the word was **a** God in John 1, no they teach he is God and is one with the Father.

Tertullian
“The Word, therefore, is both always in the Father, as He says, ‘I am in the Father;’ and is always with God, according to what is written, ‘And the Word was with God;’ and never separate from the Father, or other than the Father, since ‘I and the Father are one.’” (Against Praxeus, Chapter 8)

“the Word of God [is he] ‘through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.’ Now if He too is God, according to John, (who says) ‘The Word was God,’ then you have two Beings – One that commands that the thing be made, and the Other that executes the order and creates. In what sense, however, you ought to understand Him to be another, I have already explained: on the ground of Personality, not of Substance – in the way of distinction, not of division….I must everywhere hold one only substance in three coherent and inseparable (Persons)….” (Against Praxeus, Chapter 12)

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the WORD WHO IS GOD, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 2)

“For since Scripture calls the infant children lambs, it has also called Him – GOD THE WORD – who became man for our sakes, and who wished in all points to be made like to us – ‘the Lamb of God’ – Him, namely, that is the Son of God, the child of the Father.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 5)

“For this reason the warders of Hades trembled when they saw Him; and the gates of brass and the bolts of iron were broken. For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, GOD THE WORD with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself. But of His own will he dwelt in a body animated by a soul, in order that with His soul He might enter Hades, and not with His pure divinity.” (On Luke, Chapter 23)

“[John the Baptist], on hearing the salutation addressed to Elisabeth, leaped with joy in his mother's womb, recognising GOD THE WORD conceived in the womb of the Virgin.” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, Section 45)

“For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before GOD THE WORD. For the Father hath committed all judgment to Him; and in fulfilment of the Father's counsel, He cometh as Judge whom we call Christ.” (Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe, Section 3)

Lets stick with scripture and please start giving me the scriptures that teach Jesus was an arch angel.

Love and Life in “the Word” and in his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2013,09:32)

Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,05:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Kerwin Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers , now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT T, Adam and his kingdom were cursed for his sin.  Adam and his kingdom will be delivered by his act of righteousness.

kerwin

was the earth cursed wen Noah walked out of the ark, and God talk to him

it seems to me you do not read all the scriptures ,

dead as remain from Adam that s all in my understanding and all men animals died, except those with Noah were saved ,

but you never answered my questions ,you running ?

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,17:48)

Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2013,09:32) Quote (terraricca @ June 12 2013,05:39) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2013,13:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 11 2013,07:30) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2013,05:10) When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants.   The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. The first sentence is just an empty claim from you – one that you couldn't possibly support. As for the latter sentence, how did Adam's sin enter the animals' bloodstream, causing them to lose their immortality as well? Mike, a curse for it is written: Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Kerwin Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, does animals have to accept the gospel do we have to preach to them if your answer is both then Paul does not talk about them but the entire world of men ;believers and unbelievers , now if you want teach me HOW CAN AN ANIMAL BE FRUSTRATED BY THE WAY THAT GOD AS PLAN HIS REDEMPTION AND IN WHAT WAY WOULD THE WILL OF GOD INFLUENCE THEM BY BECOMING CONSCIOUS ABOUT IT T, Adam and his kingdom were cursed for his sin.  Adam and his kingdom will be delivered by his act of righteousness. kerwin was the earth cursed wen Noah walked out of the ark, and God talk to him it seems to me you do not read all the scriptures , dead as remain from Adam that s all in my understanding and all men animals died, except those with Noah were saved , but you never answered my questions ,you running ?

T,

As far as I know there is no curse associated with the flood except the continuous presence of God is not spoken of afterwards.

Genesis 3:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The ground is cursed.

Genesis 3:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

The serpent is cursed more than the other beasts.

This should answer your questions:

Isaiah 44:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

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