Who is this Jesus?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 06 2013,06:52)

Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2013,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2013,06:38) Take it up with Enoch then, Kerwin.  His book implies that mankind was never originally intended to live forever in the first place, hence the gift of wives. I assume God could have let them live INDEFINITELY – depending on how things went.  But mankind wasn't created immortal, IMO. Enoch makes more sense to me than you do, so think what YOU want to think, and I'll stick with Enoch, okay? Mike, So death did not enter the world through Adam but was already in the world. Kerwin, See if you can follow: I believe man was originally made to live INDEFINITELY – not NECESSARILY forever.  Think about why the tree of life was even on earth.  Perhaps God wanted to see if His new creation would be like Jesus, obeying all His commands over the tricks of Satan – or if they would forsake God for the tricks of Satan.  Perhaps, had they not forsaken their God for the tricks of Satan, God would have EVENTUALLY let man eat from that tree of life, and thereby gain immortality. Face it, Kerwin, it makes no sense for that tree to even be there IF man was already immortal.  What good would it do anyone if that was the case?  And once Adam did eat from the other tree, the first thing God did was to remove the tree of life so Adam couldn't also eat of it and live forever. Kerwin, do you think Adam's sin was the cause of Abel's death?  Or does it make more sense that NATURAL death by aging is what Adam cemented for all mankind by eating of the fruit? I think the latter makes more sense.  And although natural death did enter our lives through Adam because of his sin, all it means is that we might have lived INDEFINITELY had he not eaten of the fruit – not that we would have lived ETERNALLY.

Mike,

Death was not in the world before adam ate of the tree. If I were to speculate then it seems plausible that at the right time adam was to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then of the tree of life and so become like angels. As it is adam ate before he was mature enough to escape harm.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2013,07:22)

Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2013,00:35) Quote (terraricca @ June 05 2013,07:40) Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2013,03:12) T, Quote first ;the angels of God could not reproduce them selves thy are not given in marriage ;but they knew how to take a human form , Scripture does not state the messenger kind take human form but instead states certain angels are in human form.  These same angels seem to be who God created mankind in the outer likeness of. Quote this is what made it possible for them to procreate like men but not the same results ;they have giants as sons Not according to most available versions of Scripture though Mike introduced a version that is more friendly to that interpretation. Quote now angels do not corrupt them self for sex ,but for the participation in men world and take over the domination by dominate men with their power and brutality,this action was resolved wen God made the flood ,the fallen angels could not materialize any longer ,the condition of the earth was now changed, and so God controlled once more the spiritual world God never lost control of the Spiritual world but I assume you meant he stompted out the speculative Watcher Rebellion. kerwin Quote Scripture does not state the messenger kind take human form but instead states certain angels are in human form messengers and angel beings is not the same thing one is a carrier of messages the other is a living  being that could at times being use by God to send messages, T, I agree with your words but I also acknowledge those men who first came to Abram and then to Lot were angels as well as messengers. kerwin when the first time the mail was set up many men were carrying the mail and they also were called messenger ,tell me would that mean that they are no longer humans ?

T,

These messengers displayed miraculous powers.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:07)

Mike, If I were to speculate then it seems plausible that at the right time adam was to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then of the tree of life and so become like angels. As it is adam ate before he was mature enough to escape harm.

I can agree with that – as speculation.

The point is that the tree of life was most likely there as the future REWARD for Adam and his offspring – AFTER they proved to God they were worthy of everlasting life.

As it turned out, the very first adam messed it up for the rest of us, and God removed that tree of life from earth.

At any rate, considering there WAS a tree of life in the first place, it makes much more sense to assume Adam was destined to live INDEFINITELY, and at some later point, God would decide whether or not mankind was worthy of everlasting life.

And since the everlasting life was not a guarantee from the beginning, God gave man wives so that offspring could be generated from them.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,01:22)

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:07) Mike, If I were to speculate then it seems plausible that at the right time adam was to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and then of the tree of life and so become like angels.  As it is adam ate before he was mature enough to escape harm. I can agree with that – as speculation. The point is that the tree of life was most likely there as the future REWARD for Adam and his offspring – AFTER they proved to God they were worthy of everlasting life. As it turned out, the very first adam messed it up for the rest of us, and God removed that tree of life from earth. At any rate, considering there WAS a tree of life in the first place, it makes much more sense to assume Adam was destined to live INDEFINITELY, and at some later point, God would decide whether or not mankind was worthy of everlasting life. And since the everlasting life was not a guarantee from the beginning, God gave man wives so that offspring could be generated from them.

Mike,

The only way that everlasting life was not guaranteed is if adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before God judged him mature. There was no other way for death to enter the world.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:30)

Mike, The only way that everlasting life was not guaranteed is if adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before God judged him mature. There was no other way for death to enter the world.

Kerwin,

I assume that Adam was created to live INDEFINITELY.

Tell me WHY you assume he was created IMMORTAL.

Also, tell me the reason for the tree of life if mankind was ALREADY immortal.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29)

Mike, do we or the old testament people have access to the Father before Jesus came to earth?

Absolutely.

Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29)

You said Angels were called Yahweh but this was proved incorrect.

I'm quite sure that hasn't happened.

Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29)

Yahweh says he spoke with Moses Face to Face, mouth to mouth.

Yes.  Jehovah spoke to Moses mouth to mouth – meaning directly, and not through a vision.  But I've already showed you that Moses asked to see God, and Jehovah told him he could NOT see His face.

Daniel, I would truly love to go through ALL of these points with you, but right now I'm focused on your belief that Jesus IS the very God he is the Son OF.

So please answer ONLY this one question from before:

Do you believe Jesus was the Son of the Most High God when the universe was created through him? YES or NO?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,00:59)

Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2013,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2013,00:46) Quote (terraricca @ June 05 2013,07:37) Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2013,03:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2013,06:52) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2013,12:35) You seem to believe that God created angels to reproduce but then did not give the fertile males companions and banned them from reproducing. According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. As for your other post, I'm tired of the circling.  I have scriptures and solid logic on my side.  You seem to have neither, but keep talking anyway.  I have no time for that. Mike, Quote According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. Scripture does not say that though God later commanded something similar.  God has foresight and being God created woman for many reasons. The “line could continue” is nonsense as the purpose of reproduction was to fill the earth until the fall introduced death into the world.  When death was introduced then reproduction did serve as a means by which the line of adam continued. Quote And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: Genesis 2:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. So according to Enoch angels either have no help mate or the help mate is a male. Genesis 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV) 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Woman were not made of a part of an angel so an angel does not leave his first estate to cleave unto a woman and so become one flesh with her. A help mate was not created from a part of an angel and so angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage. A help mate was created from a part of an angel and angels reproduced to fill the heavens rendering marriage obsolete. kerwin Quote God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: were is that written in scriptures ;teacher ? T, It is written that if adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. Do you believe adam would have died if he did not eat the fruit? It is also write that death entered the world through Adam. If death is not in the world then immortality is. kerwin do you understand the difference between everlasting life and immortality T, They mean the same thing though technically Koine Greek does not have a word the is a synonym of everlasting.

K

Quote

Death was not in the world before adam ate of the tree.

how could Adam then understand what dead was ,if dead did not exist before he had sinned

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2013,01:59)

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,00:59) Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2013,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2013,00:46) Quote (terraricca @ June 05 2013,07:37) Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2013,03:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2013,06:52) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2013,12:35) You seem to believe that God created angels to reproduce but then did not give the fertile males companions and banned them from reproducing. According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. As for your other post, I'm tired of the circling.  I have scriptures and solid logic on my side.  You seem to have neither, but keep talking anyway.  I have no time for that. Mike, Quote According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. Scripture does not say that though God later commanded something similar.  God has foresight and being God created woman for many reasons. The “line could continue” is nonsense as the purpose of reproduction was to fill the earth until the fall introduced death into the world.  When death was introduced then reproduction did serve as a means by which the line of adam continued. Quote And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: Genesis 2:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. So according to Enoch angels either have no help mate or the help mate is a male. Genesis 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV) 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Woman were not made of a part of an angel so an angel does not leave his first estate to cleave unto a woman and so become one flesh with her. A help mate was not created from a part of an angel and so angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage. A help mate was created from a part of an angel and angels reproduced to fill the heavens rendering marriage obsolete. kerwin Quote God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: were is that written in scriptures ;teacher ? T, It is written that if adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. Do you believe adam would have died if he did not eat the fruit? It is also write that death entered the world through Adam. If death is not in the world then immortality is. kerwin do you understand the difference between everlasting life and immortality T, They mean the same thing though technically Koine Greek does not have a word the is a synonym of everlasting. K Quote Death was not in the world before adam ate of the tree. how could Adam then understand what dead was ,if dead did not exist before he had sinned

T,

Death entered the world because of adam's sin.
adam was taught by God.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,01:45)

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,13:30) Mike, The only way that everlasting life was not guaranteed is if adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before God judged him mature. There was no other way for death to enter the world. Kerwin, I assume that Adam was created to live INDEFINITELY. Tell me WHY you assume he was created IMMORTAL. Also, tell me the reason for the tree of life if mankind was ALREADY immortal.

Mike,

The only way death could enter the world is by adam's disobedience.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,05:30)

Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2013,01:59) Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,00:59) Quote (terraricca @ June 06 2013,05:55) Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2013,00:46) Quote (terraricca @ June 05 2013,07:37) Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2013,03:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2013,06:52) Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2013,12:35) You seem to believe that God created angels to reproduce but then did not give the fertile males companions and banned them from reproducing. According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. As for your other post, I'm tired of the circling.  I have scriptures and solid logic on my side.  You seem to have neither, but keep talking anyway.  I have no time for that. Mike, Quote According to Enoch, God gave men wives so offspring could be born of them and their line could continue. Scripture does not say that though God later commanded something similar.  God has foresight and being God created woman for many reasons. The “line could continue” is nonsense as the purpose of reproduction was to fill the earth until the fall introduced death into the world.  When death was introduced then reproduction did serve as a means by which the line of adam continued. Quote And God said that since He made angels immortal from the beginning, He did NOT give them wives to continue their line. God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: Genesis 2:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. So according to Enoch angels either have no help mate or the help mate is a male. Genesis 2:21-24 King James Version (KJV) 21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Woman were not made of a part of an angel so an angel does not leave his first estate to cleave unto a woman and so become one flesh with her. A help mate was not created from a part of an angel and so angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage. A help mate was created from a part of an angel and angels reproduced to fill the heavens rendering marriage obsolete. kerwin Quote God made humanity immortal and yet it is written: were is that written in scriptures ;teacher ? T, It is written that if adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. Do you believe adam would have died if he did not eat the fruit? It is also write that death entered the world through Adam. If death is not in the world then immortality is. kerwin do you understand the difference between everlasting life and immortality T, They mean the same thing though technically Koine Greek does not have a word the is a synonym of everlasting. K Quote Death was not in the world before adam ate of the tree. how could Adam then understand what dead was ,if dead did not exist before he had sinned T, Death entered the world because of adam's sin. adam was taught by God.

K

dead is lost of the power for living ,

but many things died on earth even in Eden ,think about it

[kerwin]

T,

Quote

K dead as lost of the power for living , but many things died on earth even in Eden ,think about it

They ate fruits and plants which means that at least shed parts of plants died. Other than that I know of nothing that perished.

I do know Scripture states both that death entered the world through adam's sin and that creation was subjected to frustration by the same sin.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,08:39)

T, Quote K dead as lost of the power for living , but many things died on earth even in Eden ,think about it They ate fruits and plants which means that at least shed parts of plants died.  Other than that I know of nothing that perished. I do know Scripture states both that death entered the world through adam's sin and that creation was subjected to frustration by the same sin.

K

So animals ad receive eternal live as well

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,06:58)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29) Mike, do we or the old testament people have access to the Father before Jesus came to earth? Absolutely. Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29) You said Angels were called Yahweh but this was proved incorrect. I'm quite sure that hasn't happened. Quote (4Thomas @ June 06 2013,20:29) Yahweh says he spoke with Moses Face to Face, mouth to mouth. Yes.  Jehovah spoke to Moses mouth to mouth – meaning directly, and not through a vision.  But I've already showed you that Moses asked to see God, and Jehovah told him he could NOT see His face. Daniel, I would truly love to go through ALL of these points with you, but right now I'm focused on your belief that Jesus IS the very God he is the Son OF. So please answer ONLY this one question from before: Do you believe Jesus was the Son of the Most High God when the universe was created through him? YES or NO?

Hi Mike,
Already answered, please read my two last post on page *two* it was a while ago so you probably forgot.

I'm wondering where all the proof is regarding Jesus being Michael or an angel? This is what this debate is about.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ June 08 2013,23:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,06:58) Do you believe Jesus was the Son of the Most High God when the universe was created through him? YES or NO? Hi Mike, Already answered, please read my two last post on page *two*……….

Hi Daniel,

A simple YES or NO will do.  Please?

Quote (4Thomas @ June 08 2013,23:37)

I'm wondering where all the proof is regarding Jesus being Michael or an angel? This is what this debate is about.

I agree that's what you entitled the thread, but my intention has always been to show you that Jesus is the Son of God, not the God he is the Son of.

The “angel” thing is a minor detail.  And besides, it has already been answered by your own words.  If the English word “angel” means “spirit son of God”, and Jesus IS a “spirit son of God”, then Jesus is, by definition, an “angel”.

Please give a YES or NO answer to the bolded question.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,17:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,01:45) I assume that Adam was created to live INDEFINITELY. 1. Tell me WHY you assume he was created IMMORTAL. 2. Also, tell me the reason for the tree of life if mankind was ALREADY immortal. Mike, The only way death could enter the world is by adam's disobedience.

I agree that Adam's sin changed “indefinitely” to “definitely will die of old age”. That DOESN'T say Adam was created immortal.

Please answer the second question in the quote box above.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2013,04:08)

Quote (4Thomas @ June 08 2013,23:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,06:58) Do you believe Jesus was the Son of the Most High God when the universe was created through him? YES or NO? Hi Mike, Already answered, please read my two last post on page *two*………. Hi Daniel, A simple YES or NO will do.  Please? Quote (4Thomas @ June 08 2013,23:37) I'm wondering where all the proof is regarding Jesus being Michael or an angel? This is what this debate is about. I agree that's what you entitled the thread, but my intention has always been to show you that Jesus is the Son of God, not the God he is the Son of. The “angel” thing is a minor detail.  And besides, it has already been answered by your own words.  If the English word “angel” means “spirit son of God”, and Jesus IS a “spirit son of God”, then Jesus is, by definition, an “angel”. Please give a YES or NO answer to the bolded question.

Hi Mike,

He is Son in relation to his Father, in the Old Testament its crystall clear that Jesus is Yahweh.

We don't have direct access to the Father

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

SO my Answer is YES in the New testament and NO in the old testament. Becuase in the Old testament they are talking about the Nature/Essence of God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is why holy scripture goes into *GREAT* detail to say that Yahweh *ALONE* created the heavens and the earth and there was *NONE* with him.

We also need to submit to the scriptures that say he will be called the Son of the Most High.

Even though Jesus is eternally Son in relation to his Father, Jesus isn't known to be the Son of God until the New this is what scripture clearly teaches Yahweh is alone the First and the last etc etc x many examples. I and my Father are *ONE*. and we can only be one with Jesus by grace Jesus is one with the Father as they sahre the same essence/nature, this is why the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. This is why when you see the Father you see the Son.

Mike I want for you nothing nore than you to accept Jesus as your true Lord and true Saviour. Scripture teaches we are all made BY him THROUGH him and *FOR* him.

The Lord showed me this and I know he wants you to see it.

William Miller, who was the main one to start the Adventism movement predicted that the world would end in 1843 this was before Charles Russell was even born!!! the Watch tower wasn't even born.

Ellen White [the 7th day Adventist leading light] believed Jesus was Michael one of the arch angels. Here is just one of many examples. Note the lack of scripture knowledge. Quote

Satan tried to hold the body, claiming it as his; but Michael resurrected Moses and took him to heaven. Satan railed bitterly against God…but Christ did not rebuke His adversary… He meekly referred him to His Father, saying, 'The Lord rebuke thee.'”  Early Writings, p. 164 Ellen White

Ever compare the teachings between the offsprings of the Adventist movement, ever wonder where Charles Russell got his memebers from. You dont need to research the jws just research the Adventist movement. the Christadephians also came from this movement.

The Adventism movement is a little hard to explain all her offspring so just take a look at wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adventism-en.png

Mike, the 7th day Adventist use to believe that Jesus was michael the angel also this wasn't Charles Russell original idea, this is why the jws oscilated on there position for approx the decades whether Jesus was Michael or not. I can give you a link to a Jehovha Witness site that admits this if that would help.

Mike, what I teach isn't lies I never lie to anyone I understood the regilons that teach to withhold the truth, but dont wont to get into this or other things. We need to stay focussed and other stuff wont help.

Mike I care for you and everyone here, I have asked the Lord to use me as a vessel and the scriptures line up perfectly I don't need to make excuses or try and twist them, I just read them for what they say.

So I believe Jesus the eternal expression substance of the Father, the Son is revealed as the “one and only” Son in relation to his Father, this is what scripture teaches and this is what upset the Jews/Pharisees so much they understood scripture and the title of Sons of gogs but they also understood how Jesus was referring to himself. Here is the proof.

17In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

18For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

And we all know what Jesus goes on to say [ in the same chapter 5] that no one has seen the form of the Father, and we know Yahweh said CLEARLY that Moses seen his Form.

Love and Life in the Son, choose Life
Daniel

[mikeboll64]

Hi Daniel,

Please read this rather large post that explains how I don't like rather large posts.  

I just skim your posts, looking for something that resembles a direct answer to whatever question I may have asked in my last post.  You don't need to post so much, because I don't read it all anyway.  

In this way, you are like many other Trinitarians with whom I've debated.  They always feel the need to flood the post with so many “Jesus is God proofs” that the other guy is overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information.  They are very reluctant to take each of these “proofs” one at a time, so we can see if any particular “proof” actually says what they claim it does.  But that IS what WE'RE going to do.

So you can post as much as you like, but I will only be responding to the ONE thing that has to do with my last post.  I cannot show you ALL of your misunderstandings at once.    Be patient, and every single “Jesus is God proof” you can think of will eventually be addressed.

Now, I'm going to tip my hand to you, and tell you what I'm up to – so you know in advance.

I am trying to get you to realize that the Doctrine of the Trinity calls for us to believe that the Son OF the ONE and ONLY Most High God actually IS the very ONE and ONLY Most High God that he is the Son OF.

In this way, I can show you that you face a logical uphill battle right from the jump.  This will come in handy later when we finally DO discuss these many “Jesus is God proof texts” that can be understood to mean two, very different things.  See?  At those times, I can say to you, “Well Daniel, I see how YOU understand those scriptural words, but you can clearly see how they don't NECESSARILY have to mean that one particular thing.  They COULD be understood in a different, very logical way that DOESN'T call for the Son OF the ONE and ONLY Most High God to BE that very ONE and ONLY Most High God he is the Son OF“.

So now you know what I'm up to.  But first you must acknowledge that Jesus, from the very beginning, has been the Son OF the ONE and ONLY Most High God.

(Okay, explanation time is over, and you'll never have to read such a long post from me again.  Now it's on to question time.)

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…….. through whom also he made the universe.

Question:  Was Jesus already God's SON when God made the universe through him?  YES or NO?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,23:11)

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,01:45) I assume that Adam was created to live INDEFINITELY. 1.  Tell me WHY you assume he was created IMMORTAL. 2.  Also, tell me the reason for the tree of life if mankind was ALREADY immortal. Mike, The only way death could enter the world is by adam's disobedience. I agree that Adam's sin changed “indefinitely” to “definitely will die of old age”.  That DOESN'T say Adam was created immortal. Please answer the second question in the quote box above.

Mike,

When God created the world there was no death in it except for shed cells and parts of plants. The only way death could enter the world is by mankind eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and subjecting his body, as well as the rest of creation to corruption. In eating of the tree man's body was changed from a body free of the bonds of corruption to a body bound to corruption. Man's body was not mortal with an indefinite lifespan as even that requires man to be bound to corruption. Man's body was immortal and changed to mortal due to his sin.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,23:11)

Quote (kerwin @ June 08 2013,17:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2013,01:45) I assume that Adam was created to live INDEFINITELY. 1.  Tell me WHY you assume he was created IMMORTAL. 2.  Also, tell me the reason for the tree of life if mankind was ALREADY immortal. Mike, The only way death could enter the world is by adam's disobedience. I agree that Adam's sin changed “indefinitely” to “definitely will die of old age”.  That DOESN'T say Adam was created immortal. Please answer the second question in the quote box above.

Mike,

I already speculated on the second question saying that when mankind matured he would be free to eat of both trees.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ June 09 2013,08:46)

Quote (kerwin @ June 09 2013,08:39) T, Quote K dead as lost of the power for living , but many things died on earth even in Eden ,think about it They ate fruits and plants which means that at least shed parts of plants died.  Other than that I know of nothing that perished. I do know Scripture states both that death entered the world through adam's sin and that creation was subjected to frustration by the same sin. K So animals ad receive eternal live as well

T,

Animals had eternal life as well as being vegetarians. Some Scriptures state the lion will lay with the lamb.

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