Who is this Jesus?

[abe]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 16 2013,21:17)

Quote Is “the Son of Man” someone OTHER THAN Jesus Christ?  Did a spiritual Jesus live from eternity all on his own doing, but the Son of Man lived only BECAUSE OF his God? The Son of Man is Jesus according to the flesh but Jesus wasn't the Son of Man until He was given life in the flesh in the womb of Mary. The Son of Man was not alive before or during creation.

Hi LU,

Jn.12:34   The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, The Son of Man must be lifted up’?   Who   is this  Son of Man?”  35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the   Light   is among you. Walk while you have the   Light,   so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36″While you have the   Light,   believe in the  Light,  so that you may become sons of   Light.”

Jn.8:12   Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

1Jn.1:5   This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that   God is Light,   and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Gen.1:3   Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Peace sister..

[mikeboll64]

Abe,

Matthew 5:14
You are the light of the world.

God is light. Jesus is light. The disciples are light.

[abe]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2013,16:06)

Abe, Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. God is light.  Jesus is light.  The disciples are light.

Hi Mike,

Jn.12:36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become SONS of Light.”

(Quote)
Jesus is light.

Jn.8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Light of the world;

Jn.1:4 In Him (Word) was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Peace brother.

[mikeboll64]

Yes Abe. I believe we've already agreed that Jesus is called “light”.

Do you agree that the disciples of Jesus are also called “light” – by Jesus himself?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54)

To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man.

Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below?

Malachi 3:1-24
3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me …
and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple …
the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts.
3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears?
For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye.

And what does Malachi mean?

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58)

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean?

T8,

The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.  

As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22)

Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points.

T8 and Kerwin

this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative,

because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him ,

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

I'll await her scripture that says such a thing. From what I'VE read in the scriptures, the Lord God Almighty SENT His Son into the earth where that Son died at the hands of men.

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

The Only Begotten God is the Almighty Lord of all. He wasn't always flesh but became flesh and His flesh died at the hands of men.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Do you believe that the theos of John 1:1b sent the theos of John 1:1c to earth to die at the hands of men?

Yes or No

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 19 2013,05:46)

Quote (kerwin @ May 19 2013,00:22) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2013,12:58) Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:54) To all, Jesus' characteristics are not God's characteristics which means he is not God. Hebrews makes the case Jesus is not an angel which means he is not an an angel. Michael is an angel and Jesus is not an angel which means he is not Michael. Scripture declares he was and is a man which means he was and is a man. Kerwin, who are these two angels referring to in the scripture below? Malachi 3:1-24 3:01Behold, I send my Angel to prepare the way before me … and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple … the Angel of the covenant whom you desire … Behold! … he is coming … says the Lord of Hosts. 3:02But who can endure the day of his coming … and who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire and like the fullers' lye. And what does Malachi mean? T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God,  the Messenger kind.  It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.   As far as I know Malachi 3:1-2 is not speaking of any member of the host of heaven; except for God; whom it mentions at a few points. T8 and Kerwin this kerwin can not believe because he does not believe in the preexisting of the son of God ,so being ignorant in scriptures is kerwin only alternative, because most of us know that Mal;3;1-24 is referring to the coming of Christ with John the baptist to precede him ,

Yes I agree,
its talking about John the Baptist preparing the way for the lord.

1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.

Sorry for not replying to some posts here, I haven't had time to check and just seen the posts now.

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 18 2013,06:59)

Daniel Quote Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she. John the baptist? Come on guys you are better than this. waiting for your answers

Hi,
I'm not the one who thinks wisdom is a person, the question is a question I asked you.
Why do I answer all your questions but you never answer all of my questions.

Here is one question I want you to answer is Jesus Michael the arch angel? YES/NO

If NO what angel is he? [PLEASE ANSWER]

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

What is the foundation to your faith

the Father calls the Son Lord and God and reveals him as CREATOR.

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2013,11:49)

And?     Is “the Son of Man” someone OTHER THAN Jesus Christ?  Did a spiritual Jesus live from eternity all on his own doing, but the Son of Man lived only BECAUSE OF his God?   Kathi, I would seriously like a DIRECT answer to my previous question.  Here it is again: Did God Almighty Himself come to earth and die at the hands of human beings?   Or did someone LESSER THAN God Almighty come to earth and die at the hands of human beings? Which one? I would also like Daniel to answer that question DIRECTLY.

By taking on human flesh, its simple. Jesus spirit didn't change, Jesus received a human body, his human body grew but his spirit is the same yesterday today and forever.

6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

he made HIMSELF NOTHING, even lower than the angels
FOR OUR SAKE, *****WOW******

Praise him for this don't deny him for this, I think its a sin to use his gift of salvation [BY TAKING human form and shedding his blood] to TRY and prove that he isn't God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning was Eve, and the Eve was with Man [adam, male], and the Eve was Man [female].

Or you could replace man with human.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Here is what I believe
Spirit [God exact substance as the Father]
Soul MAN and God
Body MAN and God [but God in the flesh, see below]

Colossians 2
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Why spend all this time trying to teach that Jesus isn't the same nature as his Father?

you believe Jesus is an angel so what angel is he? [PLEASE ANSWER THIS]

Matthew 11:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

This will show me your foundation.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2013,19:16)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 13 2013,15:22) The New testament reveals she is indeed a her. Luke 7:35 (NEW TESTAMENT) But wisdom is proved right by all her children. Now common sense would clearly show that if wisdom was actually a person which is huge leap of faith in itself that with the revealation of Jesus being the Son that it would IDENTIFY wisdom as a MALE. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, I would be amazed to find if its the same people who believe that wisdom is a not a female and really a male and really Jesus Christ. are the same ones that don't believe that The holy spirit is a person… All for the follwoing chapter in prov The mind boggles Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she. John the baptist? Come on guys you are better than this. she refers to an attribute. He refers to a person. wisdom is an attribute of God, but then is begotten and becomes the workMAN at God's side. So there you have it. Someone is begotten from an attribute of God and then assists God in some way when he makes the Universe. Q: Now who did God create the Universe through? A: Jesus Christ You need to read the whole Wisdom scripture to see wisdom being begotten.

T8, this is some of what I posted before.

Ok so if you get the right translation I can see the word craftsman, and when it translated that way you also see the word mankind… So as we clearly know that God created man, male and female he created them. A her or a female is a classified under the species of man. “hu-man”

30Then I was with him, his master craftsman—
I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
31rejoicing in his inhabitable world and taking delight in mankind.”

If wisdom is a he and not a she did he only take delight in men and not women when it says mankind here?

Questions I have asked others, no one has answered yet.

Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING
And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she.

Proverbs 8
1Does not wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?

****Understanding lifts HER voice******
understanding is understanding just as wisdom is wisdom. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

And who is prudence who dwells with wisdom?
12“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And I find knowledge and discretion.

And spirit in the Greek is NOT a her this is incorrect spirit has no gender. Spirit in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”).
Ofcourse because we all have our own spirits both male and female.
As for the Holy Spirit, Yahweh the breath of God, he is refered to masculine in a number of places where the masculine Greek word “Paraclete” occurs, for “Comforter”.

Wisdom is called a HER in the new testament in the greek

Luke 7:35 (NEW TESTAMENT)
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12 He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

See how it says that Yahweh made the world with wisdom this is what scripture teaches above and what proverbs teaches. So wisdom is wisdom. scripture teaches wisdom is a female a her in both the old and new testament.
If wisdom is Jesus who is power and who is discretion in Jer 10:12

Yahweh not only used his wisdom did he….
Proverbs 8:
12“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And I find knowledge and discretion.

T8, the wisdom thing doesn't really bother me either way

[4Thomas]

T8
I see your comment identifying she as an attribute, and yes I agree with that.

I disagree with wisdom being referred to as a “he” as nowhere does it say this.

Hebrew shows that man is a person or mankind this includes male and female.

H120
אדם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): – X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

Gen 1:27  So God created man (H120) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So the word man indicates person so any prefix spokesman
Even to this very day women who are royal electrical and mechanical engineers are known as Craftsman
The word for craftsman in the Hebrew is amon which means “one brought up” architect, or skilled. Its translated to craftman not to specify wisdom as a he but to show its by wisdom the skilled architecture was crafted, craftsman can refer to a female [even in the modern age we live in]

H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): – one brought up.

I read proverbs in context and following directly you have
Wisdom saying blessed is the man that hears me, it also meaning females not just males isn’t it. It’s also talking about wisdom if you hear instruction and hear me [wisdom] you will be wise.

Pro 8:33  Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Pro 8:34  Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
Pro 8:35  For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[Ed J]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,18:54)

Quote (t8 @ May 17 2013,19:16) Quote (4Thomas @ May 13 2013,15:22) The New testament reveals she is indeed a her. Luke 7:35 (NEW TESTAMENT) But wisdom is proved right by all her children. Now common sense would clearly show that if wisdom was actually a person which is huge leap of faith in itself that with the revealation of Jesus being the Son that it would IDENTIFY wisdom as a MALE. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, I would be amazed to find if its the same people who believe that wisdom is a not a female and really a male and really Jesus Christ. are the same ones that don't believe that The holy spirit is a person… All for the follwoing chapter in prov The mind boggles Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she. John the baptist? Come on guys you are better than this. she refers to an attribute. He refers to a person. wisdom is an attribute of God, but then is begotten and becomes the workMAN at God's side. So there you have it. Someone is begotten from an attribute of God and then assists God in some way when he makes the Universe. Q: Now who did God create the Universe through? A: Jesus Christ You need to read the whole Wisdom scripture to see wisdom being begotten. T8, this is some of what I posted before. Ok so if you get the right translation I can see the word craftsman, and when it translated that way you also see the word mankind… So as we clearly know that God created man, male and female he created them. A her or a female is a classified under the species of man. “hu-man” 30Then I was with him, his master craftsman— I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence, 31rejoicing in his inhabitable world and taking delight in mankind.” If wisdom is a he and not a she did he only take delight in men and not women when it says mankind here? Questions I have asked others, no one has answered yet. Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she. Proverbs 8 1Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice? ****Understanding lifts  HER voice****** understanding is understanding just as wisdom is wisdom. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And who is prudence who dwells with wisdom? 12“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And I find knowledge and discretion. And spirit in the Greek is NOT a her this is incorrect spirit has no gender. Spirit in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”). Ofcourse because we all have our own spirits both male and female. As for the Holy Spirit, Yahweh the breath of God, he is refered to masculine in a number of places where the masculine Greek word “Paraclete” occurs, for “Comforter”. Wisdom is called a HER in the new testament in the greek Luke 7:35 (NEW TESTAMENT) But wisdom is proved right by all her children. Jer 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens. Jer 10:12  He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. See how it says that Yahweh made the world with wisdom this is what scripture teaches above and what proverbs teaches. So wisdom is wisdom. scripture teaches wisdom is a female a her in both the old and new testament. If wisdom is Jesus who is power and who is discretion in Jer 10:12 Yahweh not only used his wisdom did he…. Proverbs 8: 12“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And I find knowledge and discretion. T8, the wisdom thing doesn't really bother me either way

Hi Daniel,

“Wisdom” is God's “HolyCity”(the bride of Christ);
“And God Himself” is “Prudence”, who SHE dwells with.
Many have trouble understanding the bible's Spiritual language.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 19 2013,12:43)

Quote (terraricca @ May 18 2013,06:59) Daniel Quote Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she. John the baptist? Come on guys you are better than this. waiting for your answers Hi, I'm not the one who thinks wisdom is a person, the question is a question I asked you. Why do I answer all your questions but you never answer all of my questions. Here is one question I want you to answer is Jesus Michael the arch angel? YES/NO If NO what angel is he? [PLEASE ANSWER] Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE? What is the foundation to your faith the Father calls the Son Lord and God and reveals him as CREATOR.

Daniel

NO JESUS IS NOT MICHAEL ,ONE OF THE CHIEF PRINCE ;

[terraricca]

DANIEL

Quote

Or do you believe he is a lesser God? Please show me WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

I do believe what Mike told you ,Christ his as describe in Col;1 15-21,and so in Prov 8;22-31 now if you start reading in proverb 1;8

Pr 1:8 Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction
and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

this letter his addressed to Christ ;the FATHER BEING HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER BEING THE WRITTEN LAW WITH THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM ,

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 18 2013,23:58)

Mike, Quote I'll await her scripture that says such a thing.  From what I'VE read in the scriptures, the Lord God Almighty SENT His Son into the earth where that Son died at the hands of men. Acts 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. The Only Begotten God is the Almighty Lord of all. He wasn't always flesh but became flesh and His flesh died at the hands of men.

Kathi,

I don't read “Lord God Almighty” in that verse – so why post it?

Also:
Acts 20:28 NET ©
Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 6

Footnote #6 says:
Or “with his own blood”; Grk “with the blood of his own.”

The genitive construction could be taken in two ways: (1) as an attributive genitive (second attributive position) meaning “his own blood”;

or (2) as a possessive genitive, “with the blood of his own.”

In this case the referent is the Son, and the referent has been specified in the translation for clarity.

This targets what jb has been trying to tell you in your debate thread – the same thing others of us have been trying to tell you for years here:  You can't just pick one or two ambiguous scriptures out of the Bible and base your entire understanding on them.

Even these 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET Bible understand the sensible meaning of the words, and translate accordingly.

Use your brain here, Kathi.  Is God a man of flesh and blood?  What do the scriptures say?  Did God Almighty Himself come to die at the hands of men?  Or did God Almighty SEND His SON to do this deed?  What do the scriptures say?

You can't even sensibly tell me if Jesus was God Almighty on earth – or someone LESSER THAN God Almighty when on earth.  You have instead come up with TWO Almighty Gods, (which the word “Almighty” would prohibit in the first place) one of whom was lesser than the other…….. one of whom prayed to and worshiped the other.

The only question is:  Was Jesus the Most High God?  Or the Son OF the Most High God?  

He cannot be both.  Luke 1:32-35, and 8:38 tell us clearly which one Jesus was.  

It is not up to you to WANT Jesus to ALSO be the Most High God, and then make it so.  You're either going to read the scriptures and believe them, or you're going to make up your own scriptures that teach what you WANT them to teach.

So far, you have been doing the latter.  I'm urging you to do the former.

I still await a scripture that calls Jesus “the Lord God Almighty”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ May 18 2013,12:22)

T8, The book of Hebrews calls the members of the host of heaven, with the exception of God, the Messenger kind. It makes clear Jesus is not one of them.

Show me, Kerwin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 19 2013,00:00)

Mike, Do you believe that the theos of John 1:1b sent the theos of John 1:1c to earth to die at the hands of men? Yes or No

Yes.

[Author]

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