Who is this Jesus?

[david]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,10:09)

Quote (david @ May 08 2013,16:26) I'm not super fond of the discussions where if you don't answer questions, you get a tile. Why?  Are you planning on avoiding her questions?

No. I just prefer to remove the pressure or the possibility of being tiled.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 09 2013,14:52)

Quote (david @ May 08 2013,17:26) Hi LU, Sure.  I'm not super fond of the discussions where if you don't answer questions, you get a tile.   What actually would we be discussing?   Proskyneo? What you said about the son being called Jehovah? David, I suggested we discuss things in the discussion area, not the hot seat. The hot seat is where you get a tile for not answering. I wouldn't threaten you with a tile for not answering anyway even if we were discussing in the 'hot seat.' Do not worry, you could come and go as you normally do. It would just be nice to have a place that had no distractions from all the other two cents that happen in every other thread. We could discuss anything we felt led to discuss. What do you say?

Ya, sure, I guess. A lot of the things you would want to discuss, I actually have extremely similar beliefs to mike on. (Similar backgrounds perhaps).

Create a thread.

If you are wanting to discuss the trinity, I think it would be good for me to know how you understand the trinity. (I find myself often arguing against the catholic trinity, despite the fact that few on here follow that belief.)

[david]

LU, you use the name Jehovah a lot more than most people. Just wondering which bible you prefer and if it has that name in it, and roughly how often.

I just wonder how likely it is for someone to believe in the trinity if Jehovah is made distinct, rather than substituting “GOD” or “LORD,” as many bibles do.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,05:09)

Quote (david @ May 08 2013,16:26) I'm not super fond of the discussions where if you don't answer questions, you get a tile. Why?  Are you planning on avoiding her questions?

Mike,

Jammin does not think you answered his questions though you believe you did. It would seem that in his judgement you should get a tile.

[mikeboll64]

Okay Kerwin,

You have been a part of the discussion for most of the MANY times jammin accused me of not answering his questions (“You have not done your homeworks”, as he puts it ).  Consider yourself an honorary moderator for today.  Would YOU give me a tile in these cases?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 08 2013,21:55)

Mike, you said Quote I realize that Jesus WAS with the Father in the beginning.  He was created as the FIRST of God's works, remember? I remember that you are trying to force that idea but even the NET translators do not agree that He was created who prefer that word 'created' in Prov 8:22…remember??

Well, the producers of NETNotes are Trinitarians, after all.    Of course they don't WANT to ever think of one of their three Gods being “created”.

But despite all that, they are still the ones who give EXCELLENT reasons for Prov 8:22 to be translated as, You CREATED me as the first of your works….., right?

Unlike most Trinitarians, they try to avoid sounding like blathering idiots.  That's why, even though they ARE Trinitarians, they offer many reasons why a lot of standard “trinity proof texts” are nothing but wishful thinking on the part of most Trinitarians.  These 25 Trinitarian scholars successfully shoot down a good 80% of the most common “trinity proof texts”.  Isn't that funny?  

Anyway, off the sidebar, and back to the issue at hand………….  What I've showed you in my post is that Jesus BEING (present tense) the eternal life who WAS (past tense) with the Father in the beginning, does NOT (common sense tense) imply that Jesus has existed from eternity.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 08 2013,22:00)

Mike, you said Quote And I also realize that just as Jesus lives BECAUSE OF the Father, we can live because of him.  Just as the Father has eternal life in Him, so He has GRANTED the Son to also have eternal life in him.  I learned these things from Jesus himself, Kathi. Did it say that He granted the Son to have 'eternal' life or just 'life?' The Son as the Shoot of David was granted life and was raised to eternal life. The Root always had life.

It says we can live BECAUSE OF him – just as HE lives BECAUSE OF the Father.

It says that the Father (implied: “originally”) had the life in Him, and then (implied: “at some later time”) GRANTED the Son to also have life in him.  

(BTW, the context of John 5:24-27 IS “eternal life” – as is explicitly mentioned in verse 24.)

And since the “Shoot” Son never granted anyone ETERNAL life, it must be the “Root” Son who WAS GRANTED from his Father and God to have eternal life in him.  And since this is obviously the case, you should be able to see that even the “Root” Son did not ORIGINALLY have eternal life in him – or else the Father would not have had to GRANT it to him.

Kathi, have your own words just shot your own doctrine in the foot – once again?  

(I haven't yet commented on your “Watch these 6 videos first” thread, because I haven't yet watched them all.  But in the first one and a half clips, the speaker shoots his own doctrine in the foot about 4 different times.  I'll watch the rest if and when I get the time/patience.  I really wish there was a way that you and I could watch it, word for word, together.  Then we could stop the video at every time he either says something unscriptural, or shoots his own doctrine in the foot.)

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,15:48)

Kathi, have your own words just shot your own doctrine in the foot – once again?

Oops. And with only 2 feet, she won't have a leg to stand on.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,13:09)

Quote (david @ May 08 2013,16:26) I'm not super fond of the discussions where if you don't answer questions, you get a tile. Why?  Are you planning on avoiding her questions?

I think it was a fabulous idea.

Already had one member leave who ridiculed others beliefs and never answered good questions about his.

It gets rid of those who are only here to take pot shots.

So less quantity more quality.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ May 09 2013,22:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,15:48) Kathi, have your own words just shot your own doctrine in the foot – once again? Oops. And with only 2 feet, she won't have a leg to stand on.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,07:12)

Okay Kerwin, You have been a part of the discussion for most of the MANY times jammin accused me of not answering his questions (“You have not done your homeworks”, as he puts it ).  Consider yourself an honorary moderator for today.  Would YOU give me a tile in these cases?

Mike,

I disagree with Jammin but such judgments are subjective.  It is why I dislike having such authority.  You attempted to answer the question in your own way and that satisfied my requirements.

[mikeboll64]

So then YOU were able to read his question, and my response to it, and decide that, in your humble opinion, the question was answered, and therefore a tile was unnecessary?

Why don't you have the same faith in me and t8 that I just placed in you by making you an honorary moderator for this one case?

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 10 2013,12:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 08 2013,21:55) Mike, you said Quote I realize that Jesus WAS with the Father in the beginning.  He was created as the FIRST of God's works, remember? I remember that you are trying to force that idea but even the NET translators do not agree that He was created who prefer that word 'created' in Prov 8:22…remember?? Well, the producers of NETNotes are Trinitarians, after all.    Of course they don't WANT to ever think of one of their three Gods being “created”. But despite all that, they are still the ones who give EXCELLENT reasons for Prov 8:22 to be translated as, You CREATED me as the first of your works….., right? Unlike most Trinitarians, they try to avoid sounding like blathering idiots.  That's why, even though they ARE Trinitarians, they offer many reasons why a lot of standard “trinity proof texts” are nothing but wishful thinking on the part of most Trinitarians.  These 25 Trinitarian scholars successfully shoot down a good 80% of the most common “trinity proof texts”.  Isn't that funny?   Anyway, off the sidebar, and back to the issue at hand………….  What I've showed you in my post is that Jesus BEING (present tense) the eternal life who WAS (past tense) with the Father in the beginning, does NOT (common sense tense) imply that Jesus has existed from eternity.

The New testament reveals she is indeed a her.

Luke 7:35 (NEW TESTAMENT)
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

Now common sense would clearly show that if wisdom was actually a person which is huge leap of faith in itself that with the revealation of Jesus being the Son that it would IDENTIFY wisdom as a MALE.

Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, I would be amazed to find if its the same people who believe that wisdom
is a not a female and really a male and really Jesus Christ.
are the same ones that don't believe that The holy spirit is a person… All for the follwoing chapter in prov The mind boggles

Now please tell me who is UNDERSTANDING
And is she a SHE or is she a male and WHO is she.
John the baptist? Come on guys you are better than this.

Proverbs 8
1Does not wisdom call,
 And understanding lift up her voice?

****Understanding lifts  HER voice******

And who is prudence who dwells with wisdom?
12“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
 And I find knowledge and discretion.

So in the *very* same chapter that you try and call Jesus Wisdom which is defined as a female you ALSO have UNDERSTANDING defined as a female and you ALSO have wisdom dwelling with PRUDENCE.  

And then there are other problems (in other chapters) I have already addressed with you, I can repeat them if you want.

Mike I don't get much time but I'm real keen in having a honest debate with just you. Answer for answer etc.
I have studied you questions honestly and openly and I would like to answer them but I'm to slow on this forum as I only get a limited ammount of personal time (5 children a wife and a rurl section does that to you).

I will start it as I already have about three + questions you asked me to answer, which I will answer.

Are you ok with me starting up a topic for you, it shouldn't take long to settle this once and for all.

Also Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father, otherwise the Father would NOT be eternally Father…..if he's not eternally Father what is he….

The Father isnt static he is the source and the expression of his Almightly power radiates from him. The Father who is source expresses himself doesn't he otherwise he wouldn't be identified as unapproachable light, light is expressed isn't it. and his substance/nature is expressed in THE Son… Which is his Word [because words express who we are and what we are] and his expressed image of his beautiful glory power and magisty is testified for all eternity in our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the true Lord our God.

The Father has proven himself for all eternity he never has to lift one finger, he communicates his will to his Son and all things are done, nothing is to impossible for the Son even taking on flesh and conquering death hell and the grave.

Mike, do you understand that we have a Spirit Soul and Body. Do you know that scripture reveals this is the wholeness of a human person and scripture [God] wants us to be fully santified in our spirit body and soul.
Do you understand the battle between the spirit the soul and the body? You don't have to answer.. I will post the research I have done on this, Watchman Nee, a Chinese man who died 1972 can explains things in much more detail if you want to look at this heavily otherwise you can test what I post. Will try and post the info I have test week sometime.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

Daniel

the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

tell us who is it talks about in verse 22 to 30

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,13:12)

Daniel the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. tell us who is it talks about in verse 22 to 30

terraricca,
I believe its saying exactly how you read it, its saying that Yahweh possessed wisdom and created the heavens and earth with his wisdom. We would be in serious trouble if Yahweh didn't use his wisdom when creating the universe, world or everything within. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit this is what scripture teaches.

How can someone say wisdom is a person and then the Holy Spirit is not a person when the Holy Spirit is the one giving the Wisdom  

Jer 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens.
Jer 10:12  He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Life in the Son and in his name
Daniel

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 13 2013,12:28)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,13:12) Daniel the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. tell us who is it talks about in verse 22 to 30 terraricca, I believe its saying exactly how you read it, its saying that Yahweh possessed wisdom and created the heavens and earth with his wisdom. We would be in serious trouble if Yahweh didn't use his wisdom when creating the universe, world or everything within. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit this is what scripture teaches. How can someone say wisdom is a person and then the Holy Spirit is not a person when the Holy Spirit is the one giving the Wisdom   Jer 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens. Jer 10:12  He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. Life in the Son and in his name Daniel

Daniel

So God created his own wisdom in the beginning

And so we can understand that God did not have any wisdom before

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,17:59)

Quote (4Thomas @ May 13 2013,12:28) Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,13:12) Daniel the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. tell us who is it talks about in verse 22 to 30 terraricca, I believe its saying exactly how you read it, its saying that Yahweh possessed wisdom and created the heavens and earth with his wisdom. We would be in serious trouble if Yahweh didn't use his wisdom when creating the universe, world or everything within. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit this is what scripture teaches. How can someone say wisdom is a person and then the Holy Spirit is not a person when the Holy Spirit is the one giving the Wisdom   Jer 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens. Jer 10:12  He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. Life in the Son and in his name Daniel Daniel So God created his own wisdom in the beginning And so we can understand that God did not have any wisdom before

Hi terraricca,

Wisdom is eternal, you are the one saying it had a beginning.
If you dont believe me show me where I have said I believe it has a beginning.

Wisdom says, I was setup from Eternity, pure and simple… its when you try and make a *her* a *him* and eternity – “not eternity” this is when you have all the problems.

Pro 8:12  I, WISDOM, dwell in counsel, and am present in learned thoughts.
Pro 8:23  I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made.

H5769עלם    עולם‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, THE VANISHING POINT; generally TIME OUT OF MIND (past or future), that is, (practically) ETERNITY; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) ALWAYS: – ALWAYS (-S), ANCIENT (TIME), ANY MORE, CONTINUANCE, ETERNAL, (for, [n-]) EVER (-LASTING, -MORE, OF OLD), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), PERPETUAL, AT ANY TIME, (beginning of the) world (+ WITHOUT END). Compare H5331, H5703.

Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and praise and glory be to him for it.

Life in the Son and life in his name
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (t8 @ May 10 2013,15:16)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2013,13:09) Quote (david @ May 08 2013,16:26) I'm not super fond of the discussions where if you don't answer questions, you get a tile. Why?  Are you planning on avoiding her questions? I think it was a fabulous idea. Already had one member leave who ridiculed others beliefs and never answered good questions about his. It gets rid of those who are only here to take pot shots. So less quantity more quality.

Its a great idea.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

Now common sense would clearly show that if wisdom was actually a person which is huge leap of faith in itself that with the revealation of Jesus being the Son that it would IDENTIFY wisdom as a MALE.

Hi Daniel,

In the Hebrew and Greek languages, wisdom is a feminine word.  But we must not confuse “grammatical gender” with “literal gender”.  If we did, then the Holy Spirit would be a chick – because in the Hebrew language, “spirit” is also a feminine word.  

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

Mike I don't get much time but I'm real keen in having a honest debate with just you.  Answer for answer etc.

I welcome that.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

(5 children a wife and a rurl section does that to you).

I'm glad you are not putting this website above family responsibilities.  I'm in no hurry, Daniel.  (What  is a “rurl section”?   )

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

I will start it as I already have about three + questions you asked me to answer, which I will answer. Are you ok with me starting up a topic for you, it shouldn't take long to settle this once and for all.

Okay, you can start a thread in the “Debates” section of the site.  That way it will be just the two of us – unless we later decide to include others.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

Also Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father, otherwise the Father would NOT be eternally Father………

I don't believe there is a scripture that says Jehovah has been a Father from eternity. It stands to reason that God would not become a Father until He begot His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

Mike, do you understand that we have a Spirit Soul and Body.

Yes.

Quote (4Thomas @ May 12 2013,19:22)

I will post the research I have done on this, Watchman Nee, a Chinese man who died 1972 can explains things in much more detail if you want to look at this heavily otherwise you can test what I post.

The scriptures are good enough for me, Daniel. And you can be sure I'll always test what you post against the scriptures.  

That being said, I'm not a big fan of secular writings that propose to tell me what the scriptures teach.

peace to you and your BIG family,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 14 2013,06:21)

Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,17:59) Quote (4Thomas @ May 13 2013,12:28) Quote (terraricca @ May 13 2013,13:12) Daniel the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. tell us who is it talks about in verse 22 to 30 terraricca, I believe its saying exactly how you read it, its saying that Yahweh possessed wisdom and created the heavens and earth with his wisdom. We would be in serious trouble if Yahweh didn't use his wisdom when creating the universe, world or everything within. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit this is what scripture teaches. How can someone say wisdom is a person and then the Holy Spirit is not a person when the Holy Spirit is the one giving the Wisdom   Jer 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, THE GODS that have NOT made the heavens and the earth, even THEY SHALL PERISH FROM THE EARTH, and from under these heavens. Jer 10:12  He hath MADE the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. Life in the Son and in his name Daniel Daniel So God created his own wisdom in the beginning And so we can understand that God did not have any wisdom before Hi terraricca, Wisdom is eternal, you are the one saying it had a beginning. If you dont believe me show me where I have said I believe it has a beginning. Wisdom says, I was setup from Eternity, pure and simple… its when you try and make a *her* a *him* and eternity – “not eternity” this is when you have all the problems. Pro 8:12  I, WISDOM, dwell in counsel, and am present in learned thoughts. Pro 8:23  I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made. H5769עלם    עולם‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm o-lawm', o-lawm' From H5956; properly concealed, that is, THE VANISHING POINT; generally TIME OUT OF MIND (past or future), that is, (practically) ETERNITY; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) ALWAYS: – ALWAYS (-S), ANCIENT (TIME), ANY MORE, CONTINUANCE, ETERNAL, (for, [n-]) EVER (-LASTING, -MORE, OF OLD), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), PERPETUAL, AT ANY TIME, (beginning of the) world (+ WITHOUT END). Compare H5331, H5703. Wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and praise and glory be to him for it. Life in the Son and life in his name Daniel

Daniel

are you joking

my first verse I quoted you is ;the only thing is that wisdom produce children and so did Christ 'Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
it is the scripture that says “FROM THE BEGINNING “AND WAS SO SET UP IN THE BEGINNING “

AND MORE ;Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

[Author]

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