Who is this Jesus?

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:04)

Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:19) The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo.  It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”   Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV.  They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way.  Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account.  It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.”   And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.   Mike is right.  You wrote a lot and too much to comment on. David, I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way. You don't seem to realize that there are several verses that show sincere worship, like this: Luke 24 50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.

If they were mockingly worshipping him, they of course were not worshipping him. They were carrying out the visible action that is often associated with worship, that of bowing down. The word proskyneo means “bowing down,” and of course has also come to mean worship.

For me, it's easier to understand that they were mockingly bowing down that to say they were mockingly worshipping.

It's like, if I mockingly loved an enemy. I can mockingly run up to someone I hate and hug them mockingly, but is it possible to love them mockingly? That seems off to me. Love, like worship, involves belief and feelings. But the actions associated with them do not necessarily have to and they can be done, whether the feeling is real or not, mockingly or truly.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:04)

Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:19) The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo.  It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”   Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV.  They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way.  Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account.  It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.”   And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.   Mike is right.  You wrote a lot and too much to comment on. David, I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way. You don't seem to realize that there are several verses that show sincere worship, like this: Luke 24 50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.

Ok, your verse, if read in Greek would have e word proskyneo there. Since we are trying to determine if Jesus was worshiped, it doesn't help just to quote a bible that translates the word as worship there.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:18)

Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:24) These are interesting points: God alone is the creator. (Yet Jesus was involved in creation) God alone is saviour. (Yet, Jesus is called saviour) The father is the “only true God.”  (Yet, Jesus is called god) When you put enough if these together in a string, it does seem like evidence. Here is another one: God alone is wise.  (Proverbs I think?)  Yet, Solomon was wise. David, Maybe you should compare Jesus 'string of evidence' with Solomon's string. Perhaps you might see then that Jesus has one of incomparable measure and not be confused to infer such a silly comparison in the future between Jesus who is the Root AND the shoot with one who was merely a shoot. Just sayin'

Hi lighten up,

My point, again, is that just because it say God “alone” is saviour, for example, doesn't mean necessarily that Jesus who is also called saviour is God. (We of course know many are called saviour)

Similarly, God alone may be wise, yet others are called wise.

What seems to be the case is that God, is the ultimate in wisdom. So, it can be said no one is wise compared to him. Similarly, he is saviour and creator in unique ways that make it possible to say he alone is those things.

[david]

I googled “face to face define.”

It showed me this:

face-to-face
adj.
Being in the presence of another; facing: a face-to-face discussion.
adv. also face to face
In person; directly: would rather talk face-to-face than negotiate over the telephone.

When we say “face to face,” we of course don't mean that our faces are touching. We mean that rather than speaking indirectly, such as by telephone, we spoke directly, personally, intimately, etc, with that person. I think the phrase was used similarly back then.

[david]

Quote

So why does Jesus say that no one has ever seen the Father at Anytime? yet Scripture teaches Moses talked to Yahweh **** FACE TO FACE **** among other explicit examples. WHY DID JESUS SAY NO ONE HAS SEEN THE FATHER- WHAT IS HE GETTING AT. Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.

I like to think of it like this: speaking directly to Jehovah, being literally in his presence, would for a human, be like shaking hands with the sun. It wouldn't go well.
jEsus said no one had seen the father at any time because no man had seen the father.
Moses had a different relationship with Jehovah than those before him–it was more more direct, and personal.
If you check through the bible, and cross reference scriptures, you find that often when it says Jehovah is speaking to someone, in another account we learn that he was speaking to someone THROUGH AN ANGEL, or in a dream, or through Jesus.
I think it's like when someone important gives a message or writes a book. We say it is Gods word, and Gods message, but he used others to convey it.

[david]

As for Michael, there are 10 threads on that subject already, which is about 9 too many. I'd rather not make it 11.

[david]

Quote

Also please tell me whats stopping you from believeing Jesus is the eternal Son, the eternal expressed image that is expressed/radiated from the Father, who is indeed The Almightly Father

There are about 700 things. I do see the 300 things that make some believe in the trinity. But I also see the 700 things that I believe teach otherwise. We can go through them. They have been discussed endlessly on this forum.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,00:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:04) Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:19) The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo.  It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”   Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV.  They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way.  Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account.  It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.”   And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.   Mike is right.  You wrote a lot and too much to comment on. David, I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way. You don't seem to realize that there are several verses that show sincere worship, like this: Luke 24 50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God. If they were mockingly worshipping him, they of course were not worshipping him.  They were carrying out the visible action that is often associated with worship, that of bowing down.  The word proskyneo means “bowing down,” and of course has also come to mean worship. For me, it's easier to understand that they were mockingly bowing down that to say they were mockingly worshipping. It's like, if I mockingly loved an enemy.  I can mockingly run up to someone I hate and hug them mockingly, but is it possible to love them mockingly?   That seems off to me.  Love, like worship, involves belief and feelings.  But the actions associated with them do not necessarily have to and they can be done, whether the feeling is real or not, mockingly or truly.

Well, really this example of those that beat Jesus as to whether or not they were mockingly bowing down to or mockingly worshiping Jesus is rather pointless. Focus on the true proskyneo and you will see that when the disciples did this in the context of Luke 24, it was clearly with worship intent. Jesus isn't even still visibly there when they proskyneo'd. They witnessed that He had predicted the future like a true theos, (His death and resurrection), He says that repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached IN HIS NAME like a true theos, and disappears into heaven like a true theos.

Luke 24
50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.

I would think that children can see that Jesus is worshiped easily.

However, whether they are bowing down to Him or worshiping Him, either would be against Jehovah's will if Jesus wasn't Jehovah, Lord of lords. It is clearly documented in scripture that Jesus is a theos and most here sadly believe that He is someone other than Jehovah, Lord of lords. So to those of you who do not see Jesus as Jehovah, Lord of lords, if you bowed down to Jesus as another theos other than Jehovah, you are outside the will of Jehovah our God who is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,01:12)

Quote Also please tell me whats stopping you from believeing Jesus is the eternal Son, the eternal expressed image that is expressed/radiated from the Father, who is indeed The Almightly Father   There are about 700 things.  I do see the 300 things that make some believe in the trinity.  But I also see the 700 things that I believe teach otherwise.  We can go through them.  They have been discussed endlessly on this forum.

700, really?? You have not one that is indisputable.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,00:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:18) Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:24) These are interesting points: God alone is the creator. (Yet Jesus was involved in creation) God alone is saviour. (Yet, Jesus is called saviour) The father is the “only true God.”  (Yet, Jesus is called god) When you put enough if these together in a string, it does seem like evidence. Here is another one: God alone is wise.  (Proverbs I think?)  Yet, Solomon was wise. David, Maybe you should compare Jesus 'string of evidence' with Solomon's string. Perhaps you might see then that Jesus has one of incomparable measure and not be confused to infer such a silly comparison in the future between Jesus who is the Root AND the shoot with one who was merely a shoot. Just sayin'   Hi lighten up, My point, again, is that just because it say God “alone” is saviour, for example, doesn't mean necessarily that Jesus who is also called saviour is God. (We of course know many are called saviour) Similarly, God alone may be wise, yet others are called wise. What seems to be the case is that God, is the ultimate in wisdom.  So, it can be said no one is wise compared to him.  Similarly, he is saviour and creator in unique ways that make it possible to say he alone is those things.

Once again, it is well documented that Jesus is a theos and theos means God or god.

Men capitalize the 'g' for when it refers to Jehovah and translate it with a small 'g' when referring to those theos who are not Jehovah, typically. Some translations just use the small 'g' for all.

Jehovah, our God, who is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords is alone the source of wisdom and the ultimate source of salvation.

[david]

Quote

I would think that children can see that Jesus is worshiped easily.

Yes, children who were taught this from birth and have bibles that translate proskyneo as “worship” of course can see this.  It's all they can see.  It's all they are allowed to see. They would have to start thinking to see anything else.

Quote

Well, really this example of those that beat Jesus as to whether or not they were mockingly bowing down to or mockingly worshiping Jesus is rather pointless. Focus on the true proskyneo and you will see that when the disciples did this in the context of Luke 24, it was clearly with worship intent. Jesus isn't even still visibly there when they proskyneo'd. They witnessed that He had predicted the future like a true theos, (His death and resurrection), He says that repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached IN HIS NAME like a true theos, and disappears into heaven like a true theos. Luke 24 50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God. I would think that children can see that Jesus is worshiped easily. However, whether they are bowing down to Him or worshiping Him, either would be against Jehovah's will if Jesus wasn't Jehovah, Lord of lords. It is clearly documented in scripture that Jesus is a theos and most here sadly believe that He is someone other than Jehovah, Lord of lords. So to those of you who do not see Jesus as Jehovah, Lord of lords, if you bowed down to Jesus as another theos other than Jehovah, you are outside the will of Jehovah our God who is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

You say it's pointless discussing the scripture where “proskyneo” obviously doesn't mean “worship.”

Well, I think it's pointless discussing a scripture that has proskyneo in it and could be translated in a number of ways.  It proves nothing, except that that translation team wanted to show Jesus being worshipped.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 07 2013,05:37)

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,01:12) Quote Also please tell me whats stopping you from believeing Jesus is the eternal Son, the eternal expressed image that is expressed/radiated from the Father, who is indeed The Almightly Father   There are about 700 things.  I do see the 300 things that make some believe in the trinity.  But I also see the 700 things that I believe teach otherwise.  We can go through them.  They have been discussed endlessly on this forum. 700, really?? You have not one that is indisputable.

Obviously, as has been demonstrated on this forum countless times, I will dispute your trinity scriptures and you will dispute my non-trinity scriptures.

I just feel their are way way more scriptures that point against, than for.

I also think if Gods name was restored to most bibles, it becomes much less confusing and easier to differentiate between the father and son.

[david]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 07 2013,05:44)

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,00:38) Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,03:18) Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:24) These are interesting points: God alone is the creator. (Yet Jesus was involved in creation) God alone is saviour. (Yet, Jesus is called saviour) The father is the “only true God.”  (Yet, Jesus is called god) When you put enough if these together in a string, it does seem like evidence. Here is another one: God alone is wise.  (Proverbs I think?)  Yet, Solomon was wise. David, Maybe you should compare Jesus 'string of evidence' with Solomon's string. Perhaps you might see then that Jesus has one of incomparable measure and not be confused to infer such a silly comparison in the future between Jesus who is the Root AND the shoot with one who was merely a shoot. Just sayin'   Hi lighten up, My point, again, is that just because it say God “alone” is saviour, for example, doesn't mean necessarily that Jesus who is also called saviour is God. (We of course know many are called saviour) Similarly, God alone may be wise, yet others are called wise. What seems to be the case is that God, is the ultimate in wisdom.  So, it can be said no one is wise compared to him.  Similarly, he is saviour and creator in unique ways that make it possible to say he alone is those things. Once again, it is well documented that Jesus is a theos and theos means God or god. Men capitalize the 'g' for when it refers to Jehovah and translate it with a small 'g' when referring to those theos who are not Jehovah, typically. Some translations just use the small 'g' for all. Jehovah, our God, who is both the God of gods and the Lord of lords is alone the source of wisdom and the ultimate source of salvation.

Sure. And yet others are called wise. Others are called saviour.

But, being the ultimate source is why we can speak as if there were no other.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ May 06 2013,15:46)

Quote I would think that children can see that Jesus is worshiped easily. Yes, children who were taught this from birth and have bibles that translate proskyneo as “worship” of course can see this.  It's all they can see.  It's all they are allowed to see.

I was thinking the same thing, David. What if the translation the children read said, “And they all bowed in awe of his reverence.”

Would those children then believe Jesus, who was in the process of ascending TO our God and his God, was being worshiped as the very God to whom he was ascending?

I doubt it.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,13:20)

Mike, Isn't eternal salvation the ultimate salvation? Is Jehovah the only Savior of only a lessor salvation and Jesus the savior of the ultimate salvation? THINK.

Back up, Kathi.  First of all, answer MY question.  When Jehovah said there is no savior besides Him, what was the context?  Was He talking about the eternal life of the Israelites?  Or was He referring to the many times He had saved them from peril?  (Please directly address this point.)

As for your point……….. Who was it that saved JESUS from death?  

Like I originally said, this is just one of those times when you have to tweak the meaning of the scriptures.  First, you guys claim that Jehovah is the ONLY savior, and so Jesus, as our savior, must therefore BE Jehovah.

So then we show you scriptural testimony that our Ultimate Savior, Jehovah, has SENT many other saviors – who were NOT “Jehovah”.

Then, when you realized that your original point was shot down by the scriptures themselves, you immediately started to TWEAK the meaning of those scriptures, and insist that Jehovah was talking about ETERNAL SALVATION.

Kathi, read this passage:

Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”

41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.

44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.

45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Could we say that Peter and the others had a big part in the ETERNAL SALVATION of these 3000+ souls?  Would they have been saved if not for Peter and the others?  Does the fact that Peter and the others were instrumental in their salvation mean that Peter and the others are on an equal footing with our Lord Jesus Christ – or with our Almighty God Jehovah?

It only means that IF you WANT it to mean that, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,13:26)

Mike, We are only told that the blind man worshiped Jesus and became His disciple. This got him kicked out of the synagogue by the Pharisees.

We're not told the formerly blind man “worshiped” Jesus at all, Kathi. We are told that he bowed and did obeisance to the one he just found out was “the Son of Man”.

Nowhere in that passage can you find any secret claim from Jesus that he was God Almighty, or that this man just somehow knew he was God Almighty, and “worshiped” him.

Nor would the Pharisees have stood for it for one second. They would have strung Jesus and the formerly blind man up on a tree in an instant if there was any hint this man was “worshipping” Jesus.

So I ask you: Doesn't “did obeisance” make 100% more sense in this particular context? YES or NO?

BTW, the Pharisees threw the man out of the synagogue before he bowed to show reverence (not “worshiped”) the Son of Man (not “God Almighty”).

[mikeboll64]

Quote (david @ May 05 2013,23:20)

Ok, your verse, if read in Greek would have e word proskyneo there.  Since we are trying to determine if Jesus was worshiped, it doesn't help just to quote a bible that translates the word as worship there.

And this is the bottom line after all, isn't it?

Kathi and Daniel, you will NEVER be able to make a case that ANYBODY EVER “worshiped” Jesus as if they somehow knew he was God Almighty.

You will be able to show countless Trinitarian translations that render the Greek word “proskuneo” as “worship” in the case of Jesus – but it will never prove anything because the word can just as faithfully be translated as “do obeisance”.

There is really no need to go on about this point.  You need only to remember three main things:

1.  The case where the formerly blind man supposedly “worshiped” Jesus right in front of a bunch of Pharisees, who weren't at all offended by this act of “worship”.  (This one should tell you that, at least in this case, the word “proskuneo” is better translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance to”.)

2.  The case where the Roman soldiers mock “worshiped” Jesus.  (With this one, you need only ask yourself whether these soldiers were making fun of Jesus for being GOD ALMIGHTY, or for being the KING OF THE JEWS.  And since we all know it was the latter one, and we also know that kings are bowed before, but NOT “worshiped” as if they were God Almighty, it is yet another case where the Trinitarian translators got it wrong.  And if the Trinitarian translators all got these two wrong, then what about the others?  What actual PROOF do they have that anyone ever gave to Jesus the worship that is only due to our and his God?)

3.  Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”  

(In this case, you only have to ask yourself if Jesus was including himself in this statement.  In John 4:22, Jesus includes himself among the group of those who DO worship the Lord their God. So it should be obvious that Jesus was NOT including himself as a part of this Lord, who alone is to be worshiped and served.  It should also be obvious that Satan wasn't trying to get the God who created him to do an act of worship to him. And if he was, then surely offering back the kingdoms of the earth that this God originally gave to him in the first place wouldn't have made a very good temptation. Oh that's right, God Almighty cannot be tempted. )

Guys, if all else fails, imitate the actions of your Lord, Jesus Christ.  He worshiped his God and our God.  And if he wasn't a “part of”, or “member in” that God he worshiped, then he's also not a “part of”, or “member in” the God we worship.  Get it?  If Jesus point blank told us that our God was also his God, and his God is not a unity of Father and Son – then our God is not a unity of Father and Son either.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 05 2013,19:33)

Your turn to show me your proof of where jesus is an Angel and then compare the weight of evidence. I would appreciate this as I don't understand whats holding you back from accepting THE Son.

Hi Daniel,

I've already showed you these in the other thread, but here goes again:

A.  Any spirit messenger of God is an angel of God.  The words “malawk” and “aggelos” simply mean “messenger”.  Revelation 1:1 shows that, even after Jesus was exalted by his and our God, he is STILL a messenger of that God.  And since Jesus is now a spirit being, it means he is a SPIRIT messenger of his God.  And that, my friend, means Jesus is an angel of his God.

B.  Galatians 4:14
and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself.

The only way a comparison like this works is if the INDIVDUAL mentioned is actually a part of the GROUP mentioned.

For example………………

1.  You welcomed me as if I were a rock star – as if I were Elvis Presley himself.

2.  You welcomed me as if I were a rock star – as if I were Albert Einstein himself.

Surely you can see how #1 makes perfect sense, because the individual mentioned actually IS a part of the group mentioned.  That means Paul called Jesus an angel of God.

And surely you can equally see how #2 makes no sense at all, because the individual mentioned is NOT a part of the group mentioned.

C.  Daniel, maybe we can save ourselves some time and nip this in the bud.

1 Corinthians 10:4
and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Do YOU believe it was Jesus who went before the Israelites in the pillar of cloud and fire?  YES or NO?

[4Thomas]

Quote (terraricca @ May 06 2013,14:56)

Daniel Easy, Christ and his father are both saviors ,God first because he holds all the powers to do so,and then Christ because he his the instrument that God almighty uses to save, This is why he also his a representation of God the father ,by seeing the action to save from Christ they could by understanding the scriptures see God,

Hi Terraricca

The point is that Yahweh makes it *very* clear that he is ALONE that there is no other god beside him and also says neither will there be.

Jesus is the Creator, the Father doesn't need to do anything he is the Source of the Son so it is by the Son that all things are created, it is by the Son that we are saved.

The Father reveals in Hebrews that it is indeed his Son who created earth and heaven.

New International Version (©2011)
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Regarding a previous question…
about Jesus not being God, because God couldn't die.
(Philippians 2:7 Jesus emptied himself… ) so he could do this in his nature as a true man, Jesus still had his Spirit that was impossible to die as its the same substance/nature as his Fathers.
You need to have a good understanding of spirit soul body to understand how Jesus could be 100% man and 100% God. I would love to get into this but it's much more important to have the correct Jesus. I am although happy to discuss this if this is the thing holding you back from understanding the correct Jesus.

Jesus died for our sake because he loves us! thats amazing!God can do anything except sin or be unjust.

13Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command.

God who is spirit can easy take the form of a man and ofcourse his spirit will remain that which was and is and is to come… Yet indeed Jesus emptied his glory and power in his humanity to allow his human body to die, so he can conquer death and open up the gates of heaven.

So as I have said before the Father doesn't need to do anything he is the Source of the Son so it is by the Son that all things are done [because the Son is from the Father] So it is from the Father and by the Son that all things are.
There is no greater testiment of how wonderful and brilliant the Father is than his eternal Son.

This morning my daughter was playing the guitar and praising the Lord and I thought and wondered what control it must take to have to be careful not to praise the Son to much incase you worship him. This thought made me weep as I thought of the control it must take and what must be holding people back from this fredom of loving the Lord with all your heart soul and mind.

When you see the Son you see the Father, if you deny the Son you deny the Father.

The Son is Glorious, when you see him you see the Father.

Revelation 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

2 Thessalonians 2:
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

There is no condemation in the Son but there is eternal life.
I pray everyone here will accept him as their Saviour and leed their whole families to him. Is he really going to forsake you at his judgement seat because you choose to believe he was true god instead of a creature angel or michael. The Word was with God and was God because he is the Father's Word and the Word is indeed the Son.

Jesus Saves
Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 07 2013,11:55)

Quote (david @ May 05 2013,23:20) Ok, your verse, if read in Greek would have e word proskyneo there.  Since we are trying to determine if Jesus was worshiped, it doesn't help just to quote a bible that translates the word as worship there. And this is the bottom line after all, isn't it? Kathi and Daniel, you will NEVER be able to make a case that ANYBODY EVER “worshiped” Jesus as if they somehow knew he was God Almighty. You will be able to show countless Trinitarian translations that render the Greek word “proskuneo” as “worship” in the case of Jesus – but it will never prove anything because the word can just as faithfully be translated as “do obeisance”. There is really no need to go on about this point.  You need only to remember three main things: 1.  The case where the formerly blind man supposedly “worshiped” Jesus right in front of a bunch of Pharisees, who weren't at all offended by this act of “worship”.  (This one should tell you that, at least in this case, the word “proskuneo” is better translated as “bowed before”, or “did obeisance to”.) 2.  The case where the Roman soldiers mock “worshiped” Jesus.  (With this one, you need only ask yourself whether these soldiers were making fun of Jesus for being GOD ALMIGHTY, or for being the KING OF THE JEWS.  And since we all know it was the latter one, and we also know that kings are bowed before, but NOT “worshiped” as if they were God Almighty, it is yet another case where the Trinitarian translators got it wrong.  And if the Trinitarian translators all got these two wrong, then what about the others?  What actual PROOF do they have that anyone ever gave to Jesus the worship that is only due to our and his God?) 3.  Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”   (In this case, you only have to ask yourself if Jesus was including himself in this statement.  In John 4:22, Jesus includes himself among the group of those who DO worship the Lord their God.  So it should be obvious that Jesus was NOT including himself as a part of this Lord, who alone is to be worshiped and served.  It should also be obvious that Satan wasn't trying to get the God who created him to do an act of worship to him.  And if he was, then surely offering back the kingdoms of the earth that this God originally gave to him in the first place wouldn't have made a very good temptation.  Oh that's right, God Almighty cannot be tempted.   ) Guys, if all else fails, imitate the actions of your Lord, Jesus Christ.  He worshiped his God and our God.  And if he wasn't a “part of”, or “member in” that God he worshiped, then he's also not a “part of”, or “member in” the God we worship.  Get it?  If Jesus point blank told us that our God was also his God, and his God is not a unity of Father and Son – then our God is not a unity of Father and Son either.

Just seen this, have no time now sorry.

Satan was wanting Jesus to worship him. That why jesus said this, jesus doesn't glorify himself.

So when you see the Son you don't see the Father?

[Author]

Posts