Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2010,08:43)

Nick Hassan wrote: Quote The spirit of man is not a shared spirit or a prince is it? As the words “the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience” clearly show the spirit is the same spirit in more than one son of disobedience I would say it is a “shared” spirit or at least a spirit held in common among the sons of disobedience. Compare this to the unity of the spirit of righteousness that is shared, held in common, by the sons of obedience. I am attempting to read between the lines of your post and it sounds like you are trying to make the case that Paul is teaching about an external spirit that somehow works within the sons of disobedience. That is why I pointed out that people must be reborn in spirit.  The definition of reborn is  born twice and Jesus is speaking of spirit and water.  The first birth in spirit would be the spirit of man, otherwise known as the old man, and the second birth is the spirit of righteousness, which we can call the new man.  Who things the old man is anything but corrupt?  If he old man is not corrupt then why would you repent and what need have you for Jesus’ sacrifice. The old man is “THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR” which is to say deception.  It is the prince because it controls your actions which is why you are not to obey the commands of the flesh. Satan is the tempter and the corrupt spirit is the part of you that loves to obey him and so fall for his snares.

Hi KW,
So the spirit given by God to men somehow is deception.
And this deception is somehow also a prince?

You are getting pretty wacky here because the spirit of man goes back to a Holy God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Unless you repent you perish.
The blood of Jesus can wash the inside of our cups.
We can be forgiven and made clean and set free from the dominion of darkness.

What God created was very good.

[JustAskin]

Kerwin,
The new Spirit that God is refering to in Ezekiel, is His Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit we walk in the ways of God because His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

When we have the Holy Spirit we are Children of God and God is our Father.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
You can walk in the ways of truth if you are reborn from above.
Or you can rather choose not to.
Half the bridesmaids failed.
Mt25

By rebirth we CAN BECOME children of God.[Jn3]
The sons of God are LED BY the Spirit[Rom8]

[JustAskin]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the input. The post is a response to Kerwin, who claims from out of context verses in Ezekiel, that man's spirit is corrupt and we need to ditch it and gain a new one.

Your post adds to mine in that we still retain our sinful 'soul' and can still reject the Holy Spirit, but 'he who once walks in the way of God but then departs would have been better not born in the first place'!

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
Of course though the soul is sometimes called a spirit the Word can discern between the two.[Heb4.12]

[JustAskin]

Hi Nick,
Gotta disagree with your last point.

Hebrews 4:12 says '…even to the division of the soul and spirit…'

This means 'death'!

Without the spirit the soul is lifeless, dead. The soul is the flesly part of man, that is why man cannot ascend to heaven, flesh and blood, the soul, cannot ascend to heaven, only the 'water', the spirit.

In Genesis, it says God formed the man out of the dust of the earth and 'breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and the man BECAME LIVING BEING (a Living Soul by the spirit in him)'.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
Death?
Why do you say this?

It speaks of division between joints and marrow..is this death to you too??
It speaks of the thoughts and intentions and says nothing being hidden from Him.

How does death relate here?

Soul is not corruptible flesh.

Salvation of the soul is the purpose of God.[ps49.8, 1Peter 1]but flesh is to return to dust.

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

You are getting pretty wacky here because the spirit of man goes back to a Holy God.

You seem to not understand a few thing about spoken/written language.  One of these is that the same word can have multiple definitions.   Spirit in English can be applied to a number of different things such as the spirit of life,  the essential principle that guides a person,  a synonym of soul, etc.

In scripture we are taught that the Witch of Endor summoned the spirit, i.e. soul or ghost, of the prophet Samuel.  Not from what he stated to King Saul I doubt very much that he was minus the essential principle that guided him in his life or that the witch summoned his soul  from the side of God.  I do know that he lacked the spirit of life because he was dead.  I am therefore going to say it is the spirit of life that ascends to God and is returned in the transformed flesh at resurrection.

So if you thing that looking at scripture from God’s point of view is wacky then I am overjoyed to be wacky.   The reason I rebuked you stand though in that you are denying the need to be reborn in spirit.

The corrupt spirit is what binds you to serving Satan and Jesus  sets you free by giving you the spirit of righteousness.   That is what the rebirth in Spirit, I.e. the essential principle, righteousness,  that guides a person, is.  John 8:31-36

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

So the spirit given by God to men somehow is deception.

That is not what I said.

I will say that “God created man upright and man in search of many inventions.”

[kerwin]

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 15 2010,04:50)

Kerwin, The new Spirit that God is refering to in Ezekiel, is His Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit we walk in the ways of God because His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. When we have the Holy Spirit we are Children of God and God is our Father.

I agree since it is the old spirit I refer to as the corrupt spirit.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
The OLD MAN is not the human spirit.
Neither is any human spirit said to be corrupt in scripture.

What is the basis of your assertions if not scripture?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2010,16:20)

Hi KW, The OLD MAN is not the human spirit. Neither is any human spirit said to be corrupt in scripture. What is the basis of your assertions if not scripture?

The gospel of Jesus the Anointed One which you deny as you deny the need to be reborn in spirit.

Can you explain why you chose to deny the teaching of Jesus?

I have not heard your explanation and yet I wait.

Here is what is written about those who search scripture but choose not to believe Jesus.

John 5:38-40(ASV) reads:

Quote

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not.  Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life.

You should take it as warning and make sure that what you believe actually is consistent with the nature of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You continue to rebuke from a weak foundation.
So where does scripture say we have to be reborn IN SPIRIT?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2010,01:29)

Hi KW, You continue to rebuke from a weak foundation. So where does scripture say we have to be reborn IN SPIRIT?

I am assuming you are not confused by my use of a word that means “born again” instead of just saying “born again”.

John 3:3-7(ASV) reads:

Quote

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

Peter states the same thing in is first letter but it is more cryptic since he assumes his listeners knows what he speaks of.

1 Peter 1:22-23(ASV) reads:

Quote

Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.

The King James version may translate the passage from 1 Peter better but I have not looked into it.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
So the soul is not the spirit.
Neither is our spirit the Spirit we are reborn of-they coexist.[Rom 8.16]
The old man body corrupts, the soul needs purification and the spirit returns to God.[ecc12]

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
You are convinced about your derivations from scripture and use these to warn of dire consequences.
But believing in you has never been part of our requirements for salvation has it?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…………..Nor believing in you is part of salvation either. You still don't know even what a Soul is do you, a Body + Spirit = a Soul .Nick truth is Your are the one convinced about your derivation from scriptures. Why accuse Kerwin of that. He is seeking the truth as well as others , you should try it for a change. Instead of being a accuser of others. Show your scriptures not your dogmas. IMO

[NickHassan]

GB,
We are meant to show revealed truth from scripture.
There is no maths such as you present above in scripture.
How do you come to understandings that are not in scripture?

Gnostic?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2010,20:47)

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 15 2010,04:50) Kerwin, The new Spirit that God is refering to in Ezekiel, is His Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit we walk in the ways of God because His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. When we have the Holy Spirit we are Children of God and God is our Father. I agree since it is the old spirit I refer to as the corrupt spirit.

Hi KW,
Why not let scripture speak without your additions?
There is no OLD SPIRIT in scripture.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2010,10:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 15 2010,20:47) Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 15 2010,04:50) Kerwin, The new Spirit that God is refering to in Ezekiel, is His Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit we walk in the ways of God because His Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. When we have the Holy Spirit we are Children of God and God is our Father. I agree since it is the old spirit I refer to as the corrupt spirit. Hi KW, Why not let scripture speak without your additions? There is no OLD SPIRIT in scripture.

Ezekiel 18 is a chapter devoted to the subject of changing one's ways and several related issues including that the “one who sins is the one who dies”.

In verses 30-32 God is commanding the House of Isreal to change their ways and do what is right.   The way of doing that is to get a new Spirit and a new heart.  That is what repentance is.  It is clear that the old Spirit and old heart are commited to doing evil and that is why the need for them to be renewed.

Jesus instruct Nicodemus to be born again, which is the same instruction that God gives to the Jews in Ezekiel 18:31.

Ezekiel 36:24-29 is similar except that God states it is him that will give his people a new spirit and a new heart.  He also states he will cleanse them from their impurities.  I was careful to avoid using the word “and” as giving someone a new spirit and a new heart is cleansing them of their impurities. It is also clear from this scripture that the old spirit and heart are impure.

Now for reasons I do not know scripture speaks of a pure heart but not an impure one.   Does that mean there is not such thing as an impure heart?

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