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Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Did you expect his resurrected natural body would have been healed?
If he had a natural body it would have had to have been healed as he was stabbed in the side by a spear which caused blood and water to gush from his natural body after his death. John 19:34. He was not recorded as still bleeding. In short your belief on this matter is neither explicitly written nor even implied by scripture which means it came to you by other means. I believe those means were the Gnostics.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote New earth without a sea= flesh man without sin?
Sounds Gnostic to meHardly, As the Gnostics believe all material is corrupt and that only the spiritual is Holy so no man with flesh could be Holy nor could a physical earth without a sea be righteous.
If there is a physical earth that dwells in the realm of God then it makes sense there are also physical beings that inhabit that earth. I call this earth a spiritual earth not because it is a spirit but rather because it dwells in the realm of God.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Flesh is not corrupt.
It is merely a tent that has no future.It will be torn down [2Cor5]
You are not sounding like a Gnostic with that statement but you are also missing half of what 2 Corinthians 5:1 states since it not only mention the earthly house but it also mentions the heavenly house which we can also call spiritual though it is not spirit. We can refer to it as spiritual because it relates to God being part of his kingdom even though it is physical.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God.[1Cor 15]
That is true of earthly flesh which is mortal but not of heavenly flesh which is immortal.
Do you believe scripture when it states Jesus is still a human being?
Hi KW,
Thomas put his hand in that wound.
God promised his body would not corrupt [acts2] but why should it heal in 3 days?A righteous sea? You go beyond gnostic.
The natural tent is pulled down so that God can house the soul in a new heavenly body.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Thomas put his hand in that wound.
God promised his body would not corrupt [acts2] but why should it heal in 3 days?The same God who brings the dead to life can heal them in an instant instead of keeping them alive bearing a grievous wound.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote A righteous sea? You go beyond Gnostic.
Not in the context I meant it. I simply mean what Peter states in the following passage.
2 Peter 3:13(KJV) reads:
Quote Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The natural tent is pulled down so that God can house the soul in a new heavenly body.
I do not disagree. The disagreement seems to be over what is meant by heavenly body. I happen to believe that scripture shows that the heavenly body is a physical body though not one of this world. I am not sure what you believe. Do you believe those that go to heaven are ghosts?
Do you believe Jesus is a human being even now?
If not then how do you understand those scriptures that call him either a man or the Son of Man?
Hi KW,
There is no doubting what God can do but we do not speculate rather find what is revealed.
To fulfill the prophecy in Acts 2 Jesus's body had to be the same and shown not to be corrupted.I believe when Jesus was lifted up into the sky his body was transformed into a new imperishable heavenly body -the new over the old.
After all that is what is promised for those who are living when they are raised up to meet Jesus in the air.
We do know that his body now is imperishable and heavenly and so will ours be.
He is ever the son of man but now is the man from heaven.[1cor15]Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote I believe when Jesus was lifted up into the sky his body was transformed into a new imperishable heavenly body -the new over the old.
I understand that is your speculation based on a misunderstanding of part of 1 Corinthians 15:50. Scripture does not explicitly make a statement one way or another but as I pointed out the evidence overwhelmingly supports that Jesus was resurrection into spiritual flesh.
For instance look at Luke 20:35-36 where Jesus teaches us that those who take part in the resurrection will be like angels. Jesus took part in that resurrection and thus became like an angel though still a human being. He is the heavenly human being or other words a spiritual human being because he has entered God’s realm body, soul, and spirit.
Lazarus was also resurrected but his resurrection was a return to his mortal coils and so he was still subject to death unlike Jesus.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote He is ever the son of man but now is the man from heaven.[1cor15]
I agree with your words but I also want to point out that a heavenly man is still a human being though a human being that has been perfected.
Hi KW,
Overwhelming?
you have not shown one scripture that speaks of SPIRITUAL FLESH as there are none.
Flesh is flesh.Jonah is the sign Jesus offered and Jesus like him returned to his body.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Overwhelming?
you have not shown one scripture that speaks of SPIRITUAL FLESH as there are none.
Flesh is flesh.Where is it written that Spiritual flesh equals natural flesh? It sounds like you are speculating.
If you were to look at the Greek word translated “natural” in 1 Corinthians 15:44, 46 you will find that it can mean “the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion” or “governed by breath”. Now look at the word translated “spiritual” which can mean “one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God” or “belonging to the Divine Spirit”.
The word “flesh” in verse 50 and 39 has one meaning that is similar to the one I mentioned for “natural” in that it is “he flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God “
Now, I admit that I am using the English definition of flesh and not the Greek definition that I gave you. The definition I am using is “The soft tissue of the body of a vertebrate, covering the bones and consisting mainly of skeletal muscle and fat.”
Another interesting aside is that the Greek word translated “body” in many verses of 1 Corinthians 15 also means “that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself”
I hope this helps give some insight into how these words are being used though I believe that will be gleaned from the context for those who are led by God.
I would state that natural flesh is not spiritual flesh as the later is subject to God while the earlier is apart from divine influence.
Hi KW,
Before we can discuss SPIRITUAL FLESH we need to establish that it exists otherwise we are wasting time.Where is it in scripture?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,10:29) Hi KW,
Before we can discuss SPIRITUAL FLESH we need to establish that it exists otherwise we are wasting time.Where is it in scripture?
You are asking me to go by the letter of the law and not the spirit. I assure you scripture is not civil law.I also asure you the word “flesh” which is English was not used in the origional “Greek” manuscripts.
What was done is that the translators atttempted to translate the spirit of the Greek word into an English variant.
I attempted to get to the spirit of the Greek words by giving a detailed definition of them. I did choose the one than I felt would give an idea of how the Greeks looked at the word.
In the English language the word “flesh” is apropriate for speaking of the The soft tissue of the body of a vertebrate, covering the bones and consisting mainly of skeletal muscle and fat” whether a natural body or a spiritual body is involved but that is not the case for the Greek word translated flesh. Since that is the case the same concept had to be voiced using other words. That word happens to be the Greek word translated “body”.
You argued that a body does not have to have flesh which is true but all living bodies do have flesh. Do you know of an exception?
I am curious though. What do you believe a heavenly body is?
Hi KW,
No I am asking you to shun additions to scripture.
Such actions are the basis for gnosticism.If there is no SPIRITUAL FLESH in scripture then we have no sound basis for discussion.
Just because you have not heard of [in earthly terms] living bodies that are not of flesh is irrelevant.We do not know what we will be like but we know we will be like the man from heaven.
Take your eyes off the visible carnal world and see.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2010,11:53) Hi KW,
No I am asking you to shun additions to scripture.
Such actions are the basis for gnosticism.If there is no SPIRITUAL FLESH in scripture then we have no sound basis for discussion.
Just because you have not heard of [in earthly terms] living bodies that are not of flesh is irrelevant.We do not know what we will be like but we know we will be like the man from heaven.
Take your eyes off the visible carnal world and see.
Spirtual flesh is in scripture but refuse to see it since you prefer the letter instead of the spirit. You have yet to provide a living example of a being with a body and without flesh.You refuse to see it because you have been indoctrinated in Gnostic hearsay which long ago snuck into the Christian church and that is not in scripture. To show this to you I asked you to tell me what you believe a spiritual body is. Once more you have failed to provide an answer.
Do you believe the new earth will be a ghost world or that it will have a physical pressence?
Are those who inhabit the new world phantasms?
A phantasm is a soul without flesh or bone.
Hi KW,
Don't ask us to read between the lines but show it written if you want us to listen.
If it is not written are you reliant on gnostic additions?
I gave you the answer scripture gives.On the new earth men will live at least 1000 years unto eternity.
The whole of the NT contrasts flesh with the incorruptible.
Flesh is of EARTHLY dust not of heavenly things.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Don't ask us to read between the lines but show it written if you want us to listen.
Do not be afraid to think for Jesus taught you to read between the lines of scripture in order to truly understand what God commands. That is why he oven stated “he who has ears, let him hear”. Sometimes going by the letter is deadly as in the case of those who refused to heal on the Sabbath and said they did it in obedience to God.
Proverbs 2:2(KJV) reads:
Quote So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If it is not written are you reliant on Gnostic additions?
I do not believe that you know Gnostic tenets to compare what I believe to them. If you did know them then you would know the comparison is absurd as the idea that the flesh is the basis for humanities corruption is absurd as is the idea that souls without bodies are free from sin.
On the other hand you seem to have tenets in common with the Gnostics as you, like them seem to believe in the dualism with your tenet of that separates soul from body.
Wikipedia article on Gnosticism read:
Quote The estimation of the world, owing to the above, as flawed or a production of 'error' but possibly good as its constituent material might allow. This world is typically an inferior simulacrum of a higher-level reality or consciousness. The inferiority may be compared to the technical inferiority of a painting, sculpture, or other handicraft to the thing(s) of which those crafts are supposed to be a representation. In certain other cases it takes on a more ascetic tendency to view material existence, negatively. Which then becomes more extreme when materiality, and the human body, is perceived as evil and constrictive, a deliberate prison for its inhabitants;
I also read last night that this could have snuck into the Christian church through Neo-Platonism instead of Gnosticism despite the similarities.
My beliefs are actually consistent with ancient Jewish beliefs according to the Jewish Encyclopedia.
It did correct me on one thing and that is that phantasms do have a tenuous body since they are shaped like the flesh they once occupied. We have an example of this in the account of the Witch of Endor summoning Samuel’s soul as well as in the mistaken belief that Jesus was a Ghost when his students saw him walking on water. It was this fleshless soul that Jesus was convincing his students he was not after his resurrection. His need to correct them is because a fleshless soul is not a resurrected human being but rather the dead disturbed from their rest.
The Jewish teaching is that this fleshless soul return to earth and once more take on a body made of the dust of the ground. I believe that dust is from the new earth.
If there is a resurrection then there must be resurrect flesh on the resurrected body as the body is a living body. Only the dead are souls without flesh. For this reason it appears that you believe that Jesus died again on ascending to heaven.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The whole of the NT contrasts flesh with the incorruptible.
It uses “world” in much the same way and yet there is a new world that is incorruptible.
Individuals whose bias was toward Gnostic/Neo-Platonism took scriptures New Testament writers meant in other ways and twisted their intent to support their bias. These ideas then remained in the Christian church and have traveled down to our current generation and have been ingrained into us. It is just not the way those who wrote those passages looked at them or even considered looking at them.
Hi KW,
So God forgot to put SPIRITUAL FLESH anywhere in scripture but you found some sort of proof it is there?
Or are you applying weak worldly human measures and logic to scripture as if they were greater than God's Word?
You do not seem to have the respect for scripture that you should but are quick to judge others by such poor standards?When will you stop being a philosopher and commit to the truth of the living Word?
There must be flesh on a resurrected bodY??
That is some sort of a pseudoscientific statement and has no scriptural basis.
Please read again 1 Cor 15 and show us how the incorruptible new body is WRITTEN as being of flesh/dust.Remember man that though art dust and unto dust thou shalt return
KW
can a criminal regain is freedom ?? yes says the law PROVIDING HE STOPS TO ACT CRIMINALLY; RIGHT if not he would stay condemn ,but if he become honest and within the law he will be free;
this example shows the connection between ,CORRUPTIBILITY CAN NOT INHERIT INCORRUPTIBILITY
AS Paul EXPLAIN IT.50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable , and we will be changed.53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 But
1 Cor 15:50-54 (NASB)Nick…………Man did not become a Living Soul without a Body, Show us by scripture a Soul exists outside of a Body containing Spirit. Spirit is (NOT) a BODY it is what is (IN) a BODY what ever Kind of BODY it IS, Either that of Angles Animals or Man. Jesus walked on water and so did Peter (with) a Body , Jesus was resurrected with a Body and ascended into Heaven with It and will return with it also. You have never shown any scripture that shows differently. Kerwin is right you are more in line with the gnostic view then you think. They believed in Spirits beings without bodies, they even taught Jesus (ONLY) appeared Physical but was really a spirit being. Do you also agree with that?
Nick why do you so detest us having Bodies of Flesh and Bone as Jesus said He does? Do you reject GOD'S power to Keep a flesh body eternally alive , The only Mans Body dies is because He sinned, He was driven out of the garden and Prevented from taking of the tree of LIFE which was in the garden , this shows Man can live eternally with His flesh body. Think about it Nick. There is another scripture that says God made Man that he might plant the Heavens, can't find it right now, but as i recall it is in the bible somewhere. There is nothing wron with our fleah bodies , it is sin thats the problem NICK. How do you know that GOD had in Mind for Man with a Physical Body to live forever, that is sure conjecture on you part Brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
G,
So you expect him to be in the same torn fleshly body he left in?
And you expect a similar one much the same as what you are in now but with scratches and large holes in it??I don't.
Nick………..Who is to say Jesus will have a Flesh torn Body , Bodies can be repaired and replenished , I m not saying it will be the same Body that corrupts in the grave that is what you are saying, not me, I am saying that Flesh and Bone can live for ever .
Gen 3:22……> And the LORD God said, behold the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live (FOREVER).
Man in the flesh (CAN) live (FOREVER) NICK.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
gene
i agree with you on this ,and more god as said to Adam the day you eat of the tree' so as long as he will not eat from the tree he will not die,but live
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote There must be flesh on a resurrected body??
All living bodies have flesh is a statement of fact.
Please give up the indoctrination that you have undergone in false tenets and embrace the truth.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote When will you stop being a philosopher and commit to the truth of the living Word?
Isaiah 1:18(KJV) read:
Quote Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Reason(used without an object) at dictionary.com reads:
Quote to think or argue in a logical manner.
It is not wise to show contempt for the tools God provides you with.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Remember man that though art dust and unto dust thou shalt return
Daniel 12:2(KJV) reads:
Quote And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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