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He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood!
katjo
Quote (katjo @ Dec. 22 2009,13:54) He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood! katjo
Hi Katjo,Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God,
which he(HolySpirit) hath purchased with his own blood(in HolySpirits' Son Jesus).Science suggests that blood in the fetus comes from the father’s genetics.
That would mean “Jesus” had “GOD Blood” running through his veins.
To put this in scientific terms (according to facts written in the Bible),
that would mean Jesus at his birth was ½ HOLYSPIRIT(Jesus’ FATHER; Matt.1:18),
¼ from the tribe JUDAH (Mary’s Father’s tribe; Luke 3:23-33)
and ¼ from the tribe of LEVI (Mary’s Mother’s tribe; Luke 1:5).The shedding of his “God blood” is what removes sin (Acts 20:28 / Heb.9:22).
“GOD The Father” raised Jesus back from the dead (resurrection); for our Justification(Rom.4:25).Why do you reject the facts; instead parroting what the systems of religion and traditions of men call 'truth'
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI dont follow what men say I take the bible for what it tells me. Your confusing scripture by adding in Holy Spirit in Act., it does not say which He (Holy Spirit) it says; church of God, which He shed with His own blood.You added to it. and God did not get with Mary to produce a son. You are talking about human Father and Son. here is another one, 1 John 3;16 HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE OF GOD. BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US;AND WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BROTHERN. I could give so many as clear as that but i think you will look over them.
katjo
Quote (katjo @ Dec. 22 2009,15:06) I dont follow what men say I take the bible for what it tells me. Your confusing scripture by adding in Holy Spirit in Act., it does not say which He (Holy Spirit) it says; church of God, which He shed with His own blood.You added to it. and God did not get with Mary to produce a son. You are talking about human Father and Son. here is another one, 1 John 3;16 HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE OF GOD. BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US;AND WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BROTHERN. I could give so many as clear as that but i think you will look over them. katjo
Hi Katjo,Are these Scriptures not clear enough for you?
Deut.6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Do you think Jesus is his own father?
Why do you insist that religious traditions are correct, when Scripture clearly says otherwise?Quote (katjo @ Dec. 22 2009,15:06) I dont follow what men say I take the bible for what it tells me. Your confusing scripture by adding in Holy Spirit in Act., it does not say which He (Holy Spirit) it says; church of God, which He shed with His own blood.You added to it. and God did not get with Mary to produce a son. You are talking about human Father and Son. here is another one, 1 John 3;16 HEREBY PERCEIVE WE THE LOVE OF GOD. BECAUSE HE LAID DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US;AND WE OUGHT TO LAY DOWN OUR LIVES FOR THE BROTHERN. I could give so many as clear as that but i think you will look over them. katjo
Hi Katjo,1John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love, because he(Jesus) laid down his life for us:
and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.You do know when words are [italicized], they are not in the manuscripts don't you?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (katjo @ Dec. 21 2009,21:54) He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood! katjo
Amen!Fight the good fight my friend. You keep exalting Jesus in the midst of the wolves that seek to bring him down and make him into their own image! Our Lord of Lords and King of Kings sits above the heavens and laughs!
Blessings WJ
Allow me to bring this thread back to the original three questions and my answers.
Was Christ born before creation?
No! Christ was born 2000 years ago (probably in 4 B.C.?) The prophetic record of the Old Testament and the record of the birth of Christ in the New Testament is so overwhelming that there is no justification to even ask such a question.Was Christ Eternal?
The answer is yes and no; allows me to explain. Jesus Christ was not eternal for Jesus Christ was begotten and born 2000 years ago. However, John 1:1 tells us that: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” So, the Word of God was God, not “a” God but “the” God, and since “the” God was eternal, His Word was eternal also.
Then John 1:14 tells us that the WORD of God BECAME flesh – BECAME the SON of God. In other words, Jesus as the WORD of GOD was eternal, but Jesus as the SON of GOD was not.Was Jesus Divine or Human? or Both?
I will answer this question from the standpoint that Jesus was begotten of God and born of Mary 2000 years ago. “Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit.” God impregnated Mary through the power of His Holy Spirit and His WORD (seed, sperm) became His SON (John 1:14). So, from the point of conception, Jesus was a divinely, BEGOTTEN being. Nine month later He became a BORN human being. In other words, for 33 ½ years Jesus was a BORN human being but only a BEGOTTEN divine being. As such He was able to sin and to die. He lived, He suffered, He did not sin, and He died. After three days and three nights in the grave (as prove that He was the prophesied Messiah), God resurrected Him, now BORN AGAIN, never able to die again. Jesus while on earth was not FULLY human and FULLY divine, as a popular, but false teaching claims. He was however BOTH human and divine, and if the Spirit of God dwells in you, then you are also BOTH human and divine.hi logos
i don't know if you looked into more than one of the pages of the bible ,because your conclusions are from a magazine not from the bible.
so i can come to the understanding you do not believe the bible is the word of God.Quote (katjo @ Dec. 21 2009,18:54) He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood! katjo
And all missinterpretated by you?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2009,17:20) Quote (katjo @ Dec. 21 2009,21:54) He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood! katjo
Amen!Fight the good fight my friend. You keep exalting Jesus in the midst of the wolves that seek to bring him down and make him into their own image! Our Lord of Lords and King of Kings sits above the heavens and laughs!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,You illustrate my point rather well, I will repeat it for you in case you forgot.
With a personal God existing as “The Trinity” above and out of reach.
You fight the wrong battle, the brethren are NOT your enemy.
Ed J
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2009,15:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 22 2009,17:20) Quote (katjo @ Dec. 21 2009,21:54) He is our God who humbled Himself and became man to take on the sin of the world! and returned to the glory He had before the world was. Son does not mean son like we have a son. He came in the flesh Himself. Look it up! Theres quite a few scriptures that literelly tell you He is our God. You cannot deny them. Acts even tells us it was God that shed His blood! katjo
Amen!Fight the good fight my friend. You keep exalting Jesus in the midst of the wolves that seek to bring him down and make him into their own image! Our Lord of Lords and King of Kings sits above the heavens and laughs!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,You illustrate my point rather well, I will repeat it for you in case you forgot.
With a personal God existing as “The Trinity” above and out of reach.
You fight the wrong battle, the brethren are NOT your enemy.
Ed J
WJ, seems to me you made him into the image of a golden calf.You fight the fight to worship gods while we proclaim the one true 'elohim who gave us his son who is our high priest.
We have a High Priest, you don't need a High Priest since you have three gods.
May I give my opinion?
Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).Notice “first born of every creature”.
Another scripture. Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. If something, or in this case, someone, is an “original” means the first of many.
His (Jesus) purpose of God was …9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He (God) purposed in Him (Jesus),
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —Here we have God saying, “to head up all in the Christ”, Meaning Jesus is the creator (through the power of God) and head of all things until the consummation.
He, Jesus, is the “Alpha and the Omega”, the first and the last, meaning He was the first thing created, and will be the ruler over all creation until the 'Consummation'. This is described in 1Cor.15:24-28 …24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)Notice that when all is completed (the 'consummation'), He (Jesus) will hand over the Kingdom to His God and Father.
I hope I have presented this clear enough to make my view of scripture understood.
God Bless, Jerry.
Hi all.
I posted a post in the “Who is Jesus' thread, it may well suit this thread if you care to read it.Blessings.
WJ………..Just believe what JESUS SAID, “FOR (THOU) (someone other then himself) ARE THE (ONLY) (no other) TRUE GOD”, and again “HERE O ISREAL THE LORD (OUR) (includes Jesus) GOD IS (ONE) LORD”, Not two or three triune anythings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 22 2009,23:45) May I give my opinion? Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).Notice “first born of every creature”.
Another scripture. Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. If something, or in this case, someone, is an “original” means the first of many.
His (Jesus) purpose of God was …9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He (God) purposed in Him (Jesus),
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —Here we have God saying, “to head up all in the Christ”, Meaning Jesus is the creator (through the power of God) and head of all things until the consummation.
He, Jesus, is the “Alpha and the Omega”, the first and the last, meaning He was the first thing created, and will be the ruler over all creation until the 'Consummation'. This is described in 1Cor.15:24-28 …24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)Notice that when all is completed (the 'consummation'), He (Jesus) will hand over the Kingdom to His God and Father.
I hope I have presented this clear enough to make my view of scripture understood.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote May I give my opinion? Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).Notice “first born of every creature”.
1. If this were true, then so many other passages are contradicted which teach that Yeshua HaMoshiach did not exist before his birth.
The record in Genesis clearly teaches that 'Elohim was the creator.
Either Yeshua HaMoshiach or 'Elohim were the creator; if we say that Jesus was the creator while Genesis says that 'Elohim was, we are saying that Yeshua HaMoshiach was directly equal to 'Elohim.
In this case it is impossible to explain the many verses which show the differences between 'Elohim and Yeshua HaMoshiach.
2. Yeshua HaMoshiach was the “firstborn”, which implies a beginning.
There is no proof that Yeshua HaMoshiach was 'Elohim’s “firstborn” before the creation of the literal earth.
Passages like 2 Sam.7:14 and Ps. 89:27 predicted that a literal descendant of David would become 'Elohim’s firstborn.
He was clearly not in existence at the time those passages were written, and therefore not at the time of the Genesis creation either.
Yeshua HaMoshiach became “the Son of 'Elohim with power” by his resurrection from the dead (Rom. 1:4).
'Elohim “has raised up Yeshua HaMoshiach again; as it is also written in the second psalm, You are My Son, this day have I begotten you” (Acts 13:32,33).
Thus Yeshua HaMoshiach became 'Elohim’s firstborn by his resurrection.
A son standing at his father’s right hand is associated with being the firstborn (Gen. 48:13-16), and Yeshua HaMoshiach was exalted to 'Elohim’s right hand after his resurrection (Acts 2:32; Heb. 1:3).
3. It is in this sense that Yeshua HaMoshiach is described as the firstborn from the dead (Col. 1:18), a phrase which is parallel to “the firstborn of every creature” or creation (Col. 1:15 R.V.).
He therefore speaks of himself as “the first begotten of the dead. . . the beginning of the creation of 'Elohim” (Rev. 1:5; 3:14).
Yeshua HaMoshiach was the first of a new creation of immortal men and women, whose resurrection and full birth as the immortal sons of 'Elohim has been made possible by the death and resurrection of Yeshua HaMoshiach (Eph. 2:10; 4:23,24; 2 Cor. 5:17).
“In Yeshua HaMoshiach shall all (true believers) be made alive. But every man in his own order: Yeshua HaMoshiach the firstfruits, afterward they that are Yeshua HaMoshiach’s at his coming” (1 Cor. 15:22,23).
This is just the same idea as in Col. 1. Yeshua HaMoshiach was the first person to rise from the dead and be given immortality, he was the first of the new creation, and the true believers will follow his pattern at his return.
4. The creation spoken about in Col. 1 therefore refers to the new creation, rather than that of Genesis.
Through the work of Yeshua HaMoshiach “were all things created. . . thrones. . . dominions” etc.
Paul does not say that Yeshua HaMoshiach created all things and then give examples of rivers, mountains, birds etc.
The elements of this new creation refer to those rewards which we will have in 'Elohim’s Kingdom.
“Thrones. . . dominions” etc. refer to how the raised believers will be “kings and priests, and we shall reign on the earth” (Rev. 5:10).
These things were made possible by the work of Yeshua HaMoshiach.
“In him were all things created in the heavens” (Col. 1:16 R.V.).
In Eph. 2:6 we read of the believers who are in Yeshua HaMoshiach as sitting in “heavenly places”.
If any man is in Yeshua HaMoshiach by baptism, he is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).
By being in Yeshua HaMoshiach we are saved by His death (Col. 1:22).
The literal planet could not be created by being in Yeshua HaMoshiach.
Thus these verses are teaching that the exalted spiritual position which we can now have, as well as what we will experience in the future, has all been made possible by Yeshua HaMoshiach.
The “heavens and earth” contain “all things that needed reconciliation by the blood of (Yeshua HaMoshiach’s) cross” (Col. 1:16,20), showing that the “all things. . . in heaven” refer to the believers who now sit in “heavenly places. . . in Yeshua HaMoshiach”, rather than to all physical things around us.
5. If Yeshua HaMoshiach were the creator, it is strange how He should say: “. . . from the beginning of the creation 'Elohim made them. . .” (Mk. 10:6).
This surely sounds as if He understood 'Elohim to be the creator, not He Himself.
And if He literally created everything in Heaven, this would include 'Elohim.
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