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Interesting. I'll have to read up on her some more. Perhaps the things said about her in Rev also point to the Trinity.
(Btw, I'm not married to this conclusion. It just seems to fit into my current understanding. I have a lot more research to do.)
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,14:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,04:14) Yes Pierre, This is also what the Biblical scholar Barnes believes. He believes the man of lawlessness is the Roman Catholic Church, and that the force that was keeping him in check was the Roman Empire. Once it fell, the leaders of the church were free to set their bishops and such up as Gods themselves.
I don't think it is the church in general, but the doctrine of Satan that is represented BY the church.
No bishop or pope ever claimed to be God Himself, while the Trinity DOES claim to be God Himself. No pope was worshipped as if he was God, while this doctrine of Satan IS worshipped as if it is God.
I do agree that Constantine was the driving force, for he alone had the power to push Athanasius' flawed understanding through, and make it official church doctrine.
What say you?
Although the harlot of Babylon is a contender. She sits on the back of the beast that received a deadly wound.The RCC is the result of the Roman Empire taking control of Christians through a false church. And it was her that made the whole world drunk on her wine and it is her that we are told to come out of.
T8
Right,but she also has daughters ,and those are the ones that came out of her as a religionPierre
T8
I think,that she does not sit on the beat that was hurt but she came to be in that time,
The reason of my thinking this way is because the beast is not coming out of the sea or out of the earth,and the color is scarlet so it is more a symbolic beast than a real one ,I mean like Rev:13 ,the beast out of the earth and the sea,
Pierre
Mike and all, a couple of points, firstly, I dont think the God of the Muslims is the same God as the God of the Christians and Jews. There are too many differences. But on saying that, they dont know that. As far as they know, they DO worship the same God… I could be wrong on that but it's what I come to believe. The name Jehovah is not used in the 99 names of Allah. And Jesus called God 'Our Father' when he told us how to pray. The title 'Father is not in the 99 names of Allah. And things like their description of hell is not the same. The Mosque in Jerusalem has inscribed around its outer walls parts of the Quran which say “God has no son” etc.
Secondly, Catholics do call the Pope etc “Father” when Jesus said to call no man on earth father as you only have one father in heaven. As for the numbers adding up to be 666, so do many numbers.
Thirdly, what is the temple? People mistakenly say it a a building but its not. Jesus made it clear the temple is the body. Im sure you know the scriptures.
As for the RCC and its “daughters” I learnt all about that in the Adventist Church.
This is a topic I am interested in and will focus on. (And Ed, just because I said “I am” means nothing).
Quote: From the Muslim point of view the Dome of the Rock was an answer to and a denial of the attractions of Christianity and its Scriptures, providing the “faithful” with arguments to be used against Christian theology. The inscriptions are seven hundred and thirty-four feet long in all, amongst the lengthiest inscriptions in the world. There is a great amount of repetition and many quotations from the Koran.
The following extracts are relevant:
Inner Face: South Wall. In the name of Allah the Merciful the Compassionate. There is no God but Allah alone; he has no co-partner. He is the Kingship and His the praise. He giveth life and He causeth to die, and He hath power over everything.
South-East Wall. Verily Allah and His angels pronounce blessing upon the Prophet. O ye who have pronounced blessings upon Him and give Him the salutation of peace. O, People of the Book (i.e. the Jews and Christians, always referred to as such by the Muslims -Ed.) do not go beyond the bounds in your religion and do not say about Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is but a messenger of Allah and His word which he cast upon Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe only in Allah and of his messenger, but do not say “Three” (Trinity) and it will be better for you. Allah is only one God. Far be it from His glory that he should have a son.
North Wall. The Messiah will not deign to be in the service of Allah nor will the angels who stand in his presence. O Allah; pray upon Thy messenger “the servant Jesus – (N-W Wall) the son of Mary and peace be upon him the day of his birth, the day of his death and the day of his being raised alive.” That is Jesus, son of Mary – a statement concerning which YOU are in doubt. It is not for Allah to take for Himself any offspring, glory be to Him.
West Wall. Allah bears witness that there is no God but Him, likewise the angels and the people possessed of knowledge (S-W WALL) – Upholding justice. There is no God but He, the Almighty and All wise. Verily, the religion in Allah's sight is Islam.
Outer Face: West and North-West Walls. In the name of Allah the Merciful and Compassionate. There is no God but Allah alone. Praise be to Allah who hath not taken to himself offspring. To Him there has never been any person in the sovereignty. Mohammed is the messenger of Allah, may God pray upon Him and accept his intercession.
Praise be God who has not taken unto himself a son and who has no partner in sovereignty nor has He any protector on account of weakness. Unquote
http://www.templemount.org/allah.html
But I dont see what Islam has to do with lawlessness. ?
Its interesting what the earliest writings had to say about this.
I'll post it in a minute.
This is something that has always stuck in my head and I believe it. Its earlier writings, 100-300AD, most of them. Its worth reading.
Quote: “Antichrist will exceed in malice, perversity, lust, wickedness, impiety, and ruthlessness and barbarity all men that have ever disgraced human nature. Hence St. Paul emphatically calls him `the man of sin the son of perdition, the wicked one, whose birth and coming is through the operation of Satan, in all manner of seduction and iniquity.' (2 Thess., 2). Through his great power, deceit and malice he shall succeed in decoying or forcing to his worship two thirds of mankind; the remaining third part of men will continue true to the faith and worship of Jesus Christ most steadfastly. But in his satanic rage and fury, Antichrist will persecute these brave and devout Christians during three years and a half, and torture them with such an extremity of barbarity, with all the old and newly invented instruments of pain, as to exceed all past persecutors of the Church combined. He will oblige all his followers to bear impressed upon their foreheads or right hands the mark of the Beast and will starve to death all those who refuse to receive it.” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem)
“Antichrist will teach that Christ was an impostor, and not the real Son of God.” (St. Hilary)
“Christ arose from among the Hebrews, and he (Antichrist) will spring from among the Jews. Christ showed His flesh as a Temple, and raised it up on the third day; and he, too, will raise up again the Temple of stone in Jerusalem.” (St. Hippolytus)
“In every respect that Deceiver seeks to make himself appear like the Son of God. Christ is king of things celestial and terrestrial, and Antichrist will be king upon earth. The Saviour sent the Apostles unto all the nations, and he, in like manner will send false apostles. Christ gathered together the dispersed sheep, and he in like manner will gather together the dispersed people of the Hebrews. Christ appeared in the form of man, and he in like manner will come forth in the form of man.” (Hippolytus)
“Antichrist will rule the world from Jerusalem, which he will make into a magnificent city.” (St. Anselm)
“He will call together the whole people to himself, out of every country of the Dispersion, making them his own, as though they were his own children, and promising to restore their country and establish again their kingdom and nation, in order that he may be worshipped by them as God.” (St. Hippolytus)
“Antichrist, the son of perdition will be born in Corozain, will be brought up in Bethsaida and shall begin to reign in Capharnaum, according to what Our Lord Jesus said in the Gospel: “Woe to thee Corozain … woe to thee Bethsaida … and thou Capharnaum that art exalted up to heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell. (Luke, 10:13) Antichrist shall work a thousand prodigies on earth. He will make the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, the dead rise, so that even the Elect, if possible, shall be deceived by his magical arts. Puffed up with pride, Antichrist shall enter in triumph the city of Jerusalem and will sit on a throne in the Temple to be adored as if he were the Son of God. His heart being intoxicated with arrogance, he will forget his being a mere man, and the son of a woman of the tribe of Dan.” (St. Zenobius)
“Antichrist will be born near Babylon. He will win the support of many with gifts and money. He will sell himself to the devil and thereafter will have no guardian angel or conscience.” (St. Jerome)
“But many who are hearers of Holy Scripture and have it in their hands, and keep it in mind with understanding, will escape his imposture. For they will see clearly through his insidious appearance and his deceitful imposture, and will flee from his hands and betake themselves to the mountains, and hide in the caves of the earth; and they will seek after the Friend of man with tears and a contrite heart: and He will deliver them out of his toils, and with His right hand He will save those from his snares who make their supplication to Him in a worthy and righteous manner.” (St. Hippolytus)
“Dan, Moses said, is a lion's whelp; and in naming the tribe of Dan he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring.” (St. Hippolytus)
“And the churches, too will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither oblation nor incense is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished, psalmody shall cease, the reading of Scripture shall not be heard; but for men there shall be darkness and lamentation on lamentation, and woe on woe. At that time silver and gold shall be cast out in the streets, and none shall gather them; but all things shall be held an offence. For all shall be eager to escape and to hide and they shall not be able anywhere to find shelter from the woes of the Enemy; but as they carry his mark about them, they shall be readily recognised and declared to be his. There shall be fear outside, and trembling inside both by night and by day. In the streets and in the houses there the dead shall lie; in the streets and in the houses there shall hunger and thirst be; in the streets there shall be tumults, and in the houses lamentations. And beauty of countenance shall be withered, for their forms shall be like those of the dead; and the beauty of women shall fade, and the desire of all men shall vanish. But in spite of all this, not even then will the merciful and benignant God leave the race of men without some comfort; He will shorten even those days to the period of three years and a half, and He will curtail those times on account of the remnant of those who hide in the mountains and caves, that the phalanx of all those saints fail not utterly. But these days shall run their course rapidly; and the kingdom of the Deceiver and Antichrist shall be promptly removed. And then, finally, in the twinkling of an eye shall the fashion of this world pass away, and the power of men shall be brought to naught, and all visible things shall be destroyed.” (St. Hippolytus)
“Antichrist will be born of Jewish parents, of the tribe of Dan, but his mother will not be a virgin, as many believe. As the Holy Ghost came into the heart of Mary, so will the devil enter into the mother of Antichrist, and his diabolical power will always support him. Babylon will be his birthplace, but he will be reared and instructed in Bethsaida and Corozain. After his education at the hands of malignant spirits he will go to Jerusalem and place his seat in the Temple which he will have restored. He will submit to the rite of circumcision, claiming that he is the Son of the Omnipotent God. His first converts will be kings and princes. His influence will extend from sea to sea, largely through force and persuasive eloquence. He will perform many signs and great miracles. Those who believe in him will be marked on the forehead with a sign. For three and a half years he will hold sway and, at the end of that period, he will put to death Henoch and Elias, who will have previously opposed him by preaching the true faith. Shortly afterwards, Christ will appear, and Antichrist will be killed by Michael the Archangel.” (Adso the Monk, 10th Century)
“Then the Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, shall come in person. He shall appear on the clouds of heaven surrounded by legions of angels; and, shining with glory, He will put to death Antichrist, the Beast, the Enemy, the Seducer, and all his followers. This shall be the end of time and the beginning of the general judgment.” (St. Zenobius)
“Antichrist will heal the sick, raise the dead, restore sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, raises storms and calms them, re-names mountains, make trees blossom and wither at a word, re-build the temple of Jerusalem, and make Jerusalem the capit
al city of the world with the vast wealth of hidden treasures.” (Rabanus Maurus, private) Unquotehttp://www.marianland.com/antichrist/antichrist001.html
My question is – when they said 'He' did they mean a country, but didnt realise?
America and Israel ressurected, and Islam (Iran) wants Israel wiped off the map, and sees Israel as the 'little satan' and America as the 'big satan'.
Hi Shimmer,
Most people are not aware of these facts that you present.
Did you know that one of the 99 names is “allah the deceiver”?B'shem
YHVHEd,
I hate to break it to you, but as Muslims dont know much about the Bible etc, how do you know, going by these writings, that Israel and America arent the Beast and False Prophet of Revelations?
Early writers seemed to believe that Israel would be made a nation again, and this all has to do with the Man of Sin. This was fullfilled, and the one behind it being made a nation again was??
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 06 2011,21:39) Ed, I hate to break it to you, but as Muslims dont know much about the Bible etc, how do you know, going by these writings, that Israel and America arent the Beast and False Prophet of Revelations?
Early writers seemed to believe that Israel would be made a nation again, and this all has to do with the Man of Sin. This was fullfilled, and the one behind it being made a nation again was??
Hi Shimmer,Here is some evidence for you (please read it all, as it is important)…
Isaiah 66:8-14 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth,
and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?
saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy
with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold,
I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck,
ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth,
so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and
his indignation toward his enemies. (Please also read Psalm 83:1-18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,21:53) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 06 2011,21:39) Ed, I hate to break it to you, but as Muslims dont know much about the Bible etc, how do you know, going by these writings, that Israel and America arent the Beast and False Prophet of Revelations?
Early writers seemed to believe that Israel would be made a nation again, and this all has to do with the Man of Sin. This was fullfilled, and the one behind it being made a nation again was??
Hi Shimmer,Here is some evidence for you (please read it all, as it is important)…
Isaiah 66:8-14 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth,
and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?
saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy
with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold,
I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck,
ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth,
so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and
his indignation toward his enemies. (Please also read Psalm 83:1-18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
GOOD SCRIPTURES EDJ.NOW EXPLAIN WHAT YOU HAVE QUOTED PLEASE.
Who is this nation born in one day?wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,03:33) 2 Thessalonians 2
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.Of all the gods worshipped in this world, only one of them “sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God”. That one is the invention of Satan, commonly known as “The Trinity Godhead”.
There is no such entity in existence, nor has such a beast ever been described in scripture. Yet it is this beast of Satan that audaciously sets itself up in the temples of Jehovah, proclaiming itself to BE Jehovah.
2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.The truth of the scriptures is that there is but ONE God Almighty, and HIS (not THEIR) Name is Jehovah. This ONE God has a Son named Jesus, and He does many works through HIS Holy Spirit (which is not an individual person).
IMO, anyone who can believe that the Son OF God is the God he is the Son of has definitely been sent a “powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie”.
Face it, if you worship the Trinity Godhead, then you are NOT worshipping and serving ONLY Jehovah, your God – according to scripture. Instead, you are worshipping some man-made, Satan inspired CONCOCTION that doesn't even exist – and are therefore NOT worshipping our only true God at all.
Any thoughts?
MIKE B.2THESS.VERSE2:8.
AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED,WHOM THE LORD SHALL CONSUME,WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH,AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING:
The trinity doctrine will be consumed at the coming?
VERSE 6. AND NOW YE KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDED, THAT HE(PERSON) BE REVEALED IN HIS (PERSON) TIME.
Is HE the doctrine of the trinity?
He is a person.We must learn to decerne scripture.
That HE is the little horn in Daniel,and in revelation 13:11.–18. the MAN with the miracles and wonders. Not the trinity; what great miracles and wonders has the trinity performed?
Did you get that of the watch tower?
greetings
wakeup.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 26 2011,04:04) hi mike 1JN 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
1JN 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1JN 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2JN 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.ACCORDING TO THOSE SCRIPTURES IT SEEMS TO ME QUITE CLEAR ,THAT GOD HAS A SON CALLED JESUS CHRIST AND THAT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS TO BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND IF NOT JOHN CALL THEM DECEIVERS,
but the the great men that decieved until today is CONSTANTINE 1, he kind of made them (all the deceivers in his time) come together and created a decieving machine still called today THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH,with all the lies what it contains.
Pierre
TERRA.BRO,WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS MENTIONED –THE ANTICRIST–CAN YOU SHOW ME PLEASE.
PEACE .
WAKEUP.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2012,20:52) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 06 2011,21:53) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 06 2011,21:39) Ed, I hate to break it to you, but as Muslims dont know much about the Bible etc, how do you know, going by these writings, that Israel and America arent the Beast and False Prophet of Revelations?
Early writers seemed to believe that Israel would be made a nation again, and this all has to do with the Man of Sin. This was fullfilled, and the one behind it being made a nation again was??
Hi Shimmer,Here is some evidence for you (please read it all, as it is important)…
Isaiah 66:8-14 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?
for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth,
and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?
saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy
with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold,
I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck,
ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth,
so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and
his indignation toward his enemies. (Please also read Psalm 83:1-18)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
GOOD SCRIPTURES EDJ.NOW EXPLAIN WHAT YOU HAVE QUOTED PLEASE.
Who is this nation born in one day?wakeup.
Hi Wake-up, thank you!Here is the “Spiritual” application, as in us being born of the Spirit…
“for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children”This part obviously refers to physical Israel in 1948.
“or shall a nation be born at once?”So you should be able to see now that there are both “Spiritual”
and “Physical” overlapping applications being spoken to us in God's word.
And one application does IN NO WAY preclude the other as being an incorrect interpretation.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,04:14) Yes Pierre, This is also what the Biblical scholar Barnes believes. He believes the man of lawlessness is the Roman Catholic Church, and that the force that was keeping him in check was the Roman Empire. Once it fell, the leaders of the church were free to set their bishops and such up as Gods themselves.
I don't think it is the church in general, but the doctrine of Satan that is represented BY the church.
No bishop or pope ever claimed to be God Himself, while the Trinity DOES claim to be God Himself. No pope was worshipped as if he was God, while this doctrine of Satan IS worshipped as if it is God.
I do agree that Constantine was the driving force, for he alone had the power to push Athanasius' flawed understanding through, and make it official church doctrine.
What say you?
MIKEB.WHAT I SAY IS ,READ THE BOOK OF REVELATION CH,18. AND STUDY IT.
Babylon the great is not the roman church only; but the whole sytem of mankind since after the flood.The woman is sitting on the scarlet color dragon with the7 heads in rev.17.
BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS(MANY) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH:ALL COMMITTED ABOMINATIONS,NOT ONLY THE ROMAN CHURCH.
THis woman is sitting on 7 heads:Egypt,syria,babylon,medo persia.greecia,roman.and at present, now.The roman church was not on the first head.
Isiah 32;9.Rise up ye women that are at ease:hear my voice ye careless daughters; give ear to my speach.
verse10. Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: For the vintage shall fail,the gathering shall not come.
verse 11. Tremble ye women that are at ease, be troubled,ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare and gird sackcloth upon your loins.
THESE ARE THE DAUGHTERS OF THE GREAT HARLOT( THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS.)
And the church you go to could be one of these daughters;
So be ware.stay awake,dont be their prisoner,CHrist will set you free.my kind greetings to you seeker.
wakeup.
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