Who is the creator of all things?

Participant

Mike,
you said:

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There is only ONE Jesus, Kathi. The Son of Man who said “I came down from heaven” is the Son of God who was in heaven before he came down from heaven.

There is also only one Mikeboll here but sometimes I speak to you as the moderator and sometimes I speak to you as just a member. I believe that the Father spoke to His Son uniquely according to the role of the Son that He was addressing.

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Yes, actually it is excluding the Son. Because the Son is someone OTHER THAN than the “Lord and God” who “created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being”. Those 24 elders sure weren't speaking to a “compound unity”, were they?

That is no argument, Mike. I have never said that the Son was not someone other than the Lord and God addressed here and you know that I believe two are addressed as our Lord and our God as Thomas claimed, “My Lord and my God” to the Son and was speaking to someone OTHER THAN the Father. They are not always addressed as a compound unity but sometimes they are and sometimes individually, especially in the NT. Also, Rev 4 does not spell out that the one on the throne was alone in creating.

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Ah………..I see how the wording tripped you up. My fault. What I meant to say is that Jesus is the only creation of God that wasn't created THROUGH someone or something else. All other things were also directly created by God, but they all came FROM God THROUGH Jesus. (1 Cor 8:6)

Mike, you said, “What I meant to say is that Jesus is the only creation of God that wasn't created THROUGH someone or something else.” Too bad you won't find scripture that backs that up.

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“God CREATED me as the first of His works”.

You know as well as I do that the word that was translated as 'created' is not translated as 'created' elsewhere in Proverbs. That should tell you that it is mis-translated. Other translations indicate that.

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“He is the firstborn of all CREATION”.

That could mean that He is:
the first to be born calf, first to be born spider, first to be born camel, first to be born fish, first to be born man, and on and on throughout each created species. since He is the firstborn of ALL creation.
or…
He is the First to be born of God, the Father, of all creation.
or
He is the First to be born of God, the Father and put over all creation.

But this could not mean that He is the first created of all creation. Firstborn and first-to-be created are not synonyms. If someone is a firstborn, we can assume that He was born first unless it is a title given by appointment. If He was born first then we can also assume that He existed within the Father before He was born/begotten. What we can't assume from the term 'firstborn' is an origin of existence because birth is not an origin of existence of a being but merely bringing forth a being that was already existing.

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“I am the beginning of the CREATION of God”.

He is the beginning AND the end. Arche' is used other times in Rev. as applied to the Son of God. It is often accompanied with 'and the end.' Therefore, it cannot mean that He was the beginning creation or else He would also be the last creation. Perhaps the author is stressing that the Son existed before matter. Some thought and still do that matter always eternally existed. It really blows a hole in your idea that all things existed within the Father. If that were so then everything always existed and nothing had to be created and nothing was a first creation.

Kathi

November 15, 2011 at 2:10 am#262324

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,19:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,18:02)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2011,09:55)

Kathi

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The Isaiah passage seems to be the Father speaking about the Son of man which was not involved in creation…the Son of God was involved in creation. The Son of God was not yet the Messiah when He was with the Father in the beginning and all things were created by/through Him-the Son.

Kathi

Christ was son of God before he came to be son of man and Messiah ,in both position he did the will of his father and God,and in both cases he is born or bring forward by his father and God,

Pierre

Pierre,
I agree with what you said and what you said doesn't discredit the common belief that He always was within the Father before He was brought forth.

Kathi

Common with WHO?

And if you agree with what Pierre said, then you know that there was only ONE Jesus who lived in heaven, then on earth, and then again in heaven. And if you agree with that, then the point you made about Is 42 is a non-point. And if that is the case, I would like you to take another stab at directly addressing the fact that the ONE who created was speaking about and to Jesus – therefore Jesus couldn't have been the ONE who created, or even a “part of Him”.

Mike,
Common with the early church Father's who believed the 'Word' was always within the Father.

November 15, 2011 at 2:35 am#262332

Participant

Kathi

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Mike,
Common with the early church Father's who believed the 'Word' was always within the Father.

this was not true because it was thought by the apostles ,Paul for one in Col; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

also John;Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
even Jesus says;
Jn 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.

Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Kathi ,believe scriptures

Pierre

November 15, 2011 at 2:51 am#262336

Participant

Pierre,
A firstborn already has existed for a while within it's 'host' before getting the title of 'firstborn.' The claim that He is the Firstborn does not speak about an origin but a begettal of one that was already in existence.

Kathi

November 15, 2011 at 3:15 am#262340

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,19:51)

Kathi

it does not matter what you or I or any body thinks or says ,scriptures are stipulating that THE WORD OF GOD ” that was with God came down and saved US ,it says that God his is father ,he was with God in the beginning in Colossians 1; it tells us that God made him the supreme after he had given up his man like live, Proverbs 8;22 says he was created the first ,so his Paul in Colossians 1; and Revelation 19 , and Jesus Christ always refers to his God has his father and always ask to only worship his father ,and never claim to be his father nor his equal.

so this in scriptures will never become obsolete this truth is for ever so you better get use to it ,

Pierre

November 15, 2011 at 3:21 am#262341

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

There is only ONE Jesus, Kathi. The Son of Man who said “I came down from heaven” is the Son of God who was in heaven before he came down from heaven.

Well of course you believe that, Kathi. You'll believe anything you can imagine to keep your flawed doctrine afloat. But whether or not God spoke to His Son according to his current role, it is still the SAME EXACT Jesus. He is and has always been the SAME BEING.

So if the universe was created through the Son of God, the universe was created through the Son of Man. Agreed?

(Also, I've noticed many times that I get ready to write, “So if Jesus created the universe…….” But then I have to stop myself, because no scripture ever puts Jesus as the subject. He is always the object, with the universe, or all things being the subject. Why do you think that is, Kathi? If all things were created BY Jesus, then why isn't Jesus ever the subject, as in “Jesus created the universe”? There are many scriptures that list God as the subject, and the universe as the object of His creative acts. But none that mention Jesus that way.

Think about it. If I knew that a certain person created the universe, then I could say, “HE created the universe” OR “The universe was created BY Him”. They would be interchangeable. But if I knew that a person did NOT create the universe, but the universe was created THROUGH him, I only have one option. You can't say, “He throughed the universe”, right? So the ONLY way you could say it is by putting the universe as the subject and the one through whom it was created as the object of the verb.

God's act of creation is spoken of both ways in scripture. Jesus' contribution is spoken of only in the latter way.)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Also, Rev 4 does not spell out that the one on the throne was alone in creating.

Is it worded in such a way to make you assume there were others? If it says “YOU created”, then why would you assume that the “YOU” was only one of many who created?

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Mike, you said, “What I meant to say is that Jesus is the only creation of God that wasn't created THROUGH someone or something else.” Too bad you won't find scripture that backs that up.

I've already shown you plenty of scriptures that back my statement up. You only have two choices:

1. Jesus was created by God alone.
2. Jesus was created by God THROUGH another entity.

And since we know Jesus was the FIRST creature ever to be created, there couldn't be another entity through which to create him. Therefore #1 is correct.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

You know as well as I do that the word that was translated as 'created' is not translated as 'created' elsewhere in Proverbs. That should tell you that it is mis-translated.

From NETNotes: (Once again)
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish”.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

“He is the firstborn of all CREATION”.

It means all of the above. Of all the creatures that have EVER been created, Jesus was the first one. That includes angels, men, spiders and fish.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Arche' is used other times in Rev. as applied to the Son of God. It is often accompanied with 'and the end.' Therefore, it cannot mean that He was the beginning creation or else He would also be the last creation.

I see. So because SOMETIMES the word beginning is followed by the word end, Jesus can't be the beginning of creation without also being the end of it?

Abraham was the beginning of the Jewish nation. Is that an impossibility because he is not also the end of it?

Also, you didn't answer my question. WHOSE creation was Jesus the beginning/ruler of?

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Perhaps the author is stressing that the Son existed before matter.

Or perhaps Jesus, who is th
e one who said it, was stressing what many other scriptures also tell us – that he was the first creation of his God and our God.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Some thought and still do that matter always eternally existed. It really blows a hole in your idea that all things existed within the Father. If that were so then everything always existed and nothing had to be created and nothing was a first creation.

Kathi, ALL THINGS came from the Father. If matter already existed, then it didn't come from the Father – making the writers of the scriptures out to be liars.

And since we KNOW that ALL THINGS (including matter) came FROM the Father, then coming FROM the Father does not exclude being created. So if the universe, which came from within the Father, is a CREATION, then what leg do you have to stand on when you claim that Jesus can't be a creation because he came from within the Father?

November 15, 2011 at 3:24 am#262342

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:51)

Pierre,
A firstborn already has existed for a while within it's 'host' before getting the title of 'firstborn.'

And the word BORN also implies a time when that one DIDN'T EXIST AT ALL.

November 15, 2011 at 3:25 am#262343

Blocked

Kathi, do you think the one Jesus called “my God” while he was on earth is the same one he called “my God” after he was exalted?

November 16, 2011 at 1:28 am#262406

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 13 2011,23:39)

The Isaiah passage seems to be the Father speaking about the Son of man…………..

And look at what the Father says to His Son:
Isaiah 42
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Here, we see the FATHER telling HIS ANOINTED SERVANT that HE is Jehovah. Why would “part of the plural unity of Jehovah” be telling the other part, “I am Jehovah”?

Isaiah 42
8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”

Here Jehovah repeats Himself to His anointed servant. He reminds His SERVANT that HE is Jehovah, and that Jehovah is HIS Name. Doesn't that seem an odd thing for the “plural unity of the Father and the Son” to say to the Son?

And why do you think the FATHER told His SON that He wouldn't share HIS glory with another?

Kathi, how do you fit this passage into your “plural unity Godhead” theory?

November 16, 2011 at 1:41 am#262408

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,19:51)

Kathi

God is not man ,he does not change his mind ,when he made a decision he does it ,only in is own time,

so Christ was created when God starts no such thing like men ;will i do it ?will I not do it ? is it a good decision or a bad one, ect;their is no doubt in God

when scriptures says Christ his first creation then he his FIRST of creation,

Pierre

November 16, 2011 at 7:06 am#262418

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2011,21:21)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

There is only ONE Jesus, Kathi. The Son of Man who said “I came down from heaven” is the Son of God who was in heaven before he came down from heaven.

So if the universe was created through the Son of God, the universe was created through the Son of Man. Agreed?

God's act of creation is spoken of both ways in scripture. Jesus' contribution is spoken of only in the latter way.)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Also, Rev 4 does not spell out that the one on the throne was alone in creating.

Is it worded in such a way to make you assume there were others? If it says “YOU created”, then why would you assume that the “YOU” was only one of many who created?

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Mike, you said, “What I meant to say is that Jesus is the only creation of God that wasn't created THROUGH someone or something else.” Too bad you won't find scripture that backs that up.

I've already shown you plenty of scriptures that back my statement up. You only have two choices:

1. Jesus was created by God alone.
2. Jesus was created by God THROUGH another entity.

And since we know Jesus was the FIRST creature ever to be created, there couldn't be another entity through which to create him. Therefore #1 is correct.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

You know as well as I do that the word that was translated as 'created' is not translated as 'created' elsewhere in Proverbs. That should tell you that it is mis-translated.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

“He is the firstborn of all CREATION”.

It means all of the above. Of all the creatures that have EVER been created, Jesus was the first one. That includes angels, men, spiders and fish.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

I see. So because SOMETIMES the word beginning is followed by the word end, Jesus can't be the beginning of creation without also being the end of it?

Abraham was the beginning of the Jewish nation. Is that an impossibility because he is not also the end of it?

Also, you didn't answer my question. WHOSE creation was Jesus the beginning/ruler of?

Quote (Li
ghtenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Perhaps the author is stressing that the Son existed before matter.

Or perhaps Jesus, who is the one who said it, was stressing what many other scriptures also tell us – that he was the first creation of his God and our God.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 14 2011,19:02)

Kathi, ALL THINGS came from the Father. If matter already existed, then it didn't come from the Father – making the writers of the scriptures out to be liars.

Mike,

you wrote:

Quote

But whether or not God spoke to His Son according to his current role, it is still the SAME EXACT Jesus. He is and has always been the SAME BEING.

So if the universe was created through the Son of God, the universe was created through the Son of Man. Agreed?

If you have a problem with my doctrine here then you would also have a problem with your pre-existent angel doctrine. We both have a supernatural being that pre-existed and was with the Father so why is the Father telling that person that He is Jehovah??? Hmmm??? Either way, that pre-existent person would already know that, wouldn't He?

And, no I do not agree that the universe was created through the Son of Man. Was your HN registration created through Mike the moderator? Of course not. It was just created through Mike the new member. Was Mike an unbeliever as the moderator? Again, no. So, the Son of God as the Son of Man was not the one that the universe was created through. He was not the Son of Man during that time.

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Here is a passage that has the Son as the subject regarding creation and also being referred to as 'Jehovah':

8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

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If I knew that a certain person created the universe, then I could say, “HE created the universe” OR “The universe was created BY Him”. They would be interchangeable.

And that is what is said in Hebrews.

perfect example:
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,…”

This same phrase could be written, In the beginning, the foundation of the earth was laid by you, LORD (Jehovah).

That refers to the Son btw.

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Is it worded in such a way to make you assume there were others? If it says “YOU created”, then why would you assume that the “YOU” was only one of many who created?

If I told somebody to report a post to Mikeboll because he is the moderator and aware of the conversation in question, would that mean that we must only have one moderator. See what I mean? t8 doesn't have to be mentioned in that case, and not mentioning him doesn't make him not a moderator.

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I've already shown you plenty of scriptures that back my statement up. You only have two choices:

1. Jesus was created by God alone.
2. Jesus was created by God THROUGH another entity.

Only two choices??? No, I wouldn't call them choices according to scripture. Jesus was BEGOTTEN by God alone and everything else was created through the only one that was begotten.

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And since we know Jesus was the FIRST creature ever to be created, there couldn't be another entity through which to create him. Therefore #1 is correct.

And that would be an example of what a false teacher would say which is a tradition of man and not of God.

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From NETNotes: (Once again)
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “crea
te.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish”

Did you miss the phrase 'argue for' and that it could be translated as 'establish?' You do not have solid ground for your doctrine here either, do you? Thanks to the NET translators, they show that their choosing 'create' is only because of the parallel ideas of the words “appointed, given birth.” Of course, establish or possessed works just fine with 'appointed, given birth' in my understanding. His begettal established the Son as another person with the wisdom of God by bringing Him forth to be beside the Father as a master craftsman.

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It means all of the above. Of all the creatures that have EVER been created, Jesus was the first one. That includes angels, men, spiders and fish.

It means that He was the firstborn of God, not the first created of God. Glad though that you make a distinction between Jesus and the angels here. Your comment would exclude Jesus from being one of the angel type. Every little step helps

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I see. So because SOMETIMES the word beginning is followed by the word end, Jesus can't be the beginning of creation without also being the end of it?

Abraham was the beginning of the Jewish nation. Is that an impossibility because he is not also the end of it?

Revelations was written by John, he used the word arche' a few times in that book. The argument that he intended Jesus to be the arche' would unlikely have one meaning as beginning in one verse and in another verse have a completely different meaning as beginning in the others. We are not talking about different authors here.

Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write : The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this :14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write : The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this :

Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Why bring up Abraham, is he said to be the beginning AND the end of anything? You are not comparing apples to apples here.

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Also, you didn't answer my question. WHOSE creation was Jesus the beginning/ruler of?

He is the beginning and the end of the creation that was created through Him. Jehovah's creation…Jehovah as a unity.

Quote

So if the universe, which came from within the Father, is a CREATION, then what leg do you have to stand on when you claim that Jesus can't be a creation because he came from within the Father?

The universe did not come from within the Father, it came from the Father. Unless you can find scripture that says all things were 'begotten' from the Father.

Think about it Mike,
Kathi

November 16, 2011 at 7:14 am#262419

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2011,19:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,19:51)

Kathi

God is not man ,he does not change his mind ,when he made a decision he does it ,only in is own time,

so Christ was created when God starts no such thing like men ;will i do it ?will I not do it ? is it a good decision or a bad one, ect;their is no doubt in God

when scriptures says Christ his first creation then he his FIRST of creation,

Pierre

Pierre,
you wrote:

Quote

when scriptures says Christ his first creation then he his FIRST of creation,

But scriptures never says that Christ is His first creation.

Stick to scripture…God doesn't need you to rewrite it for Him

Kathi

November 16, 2011 at 6:29 pm#262445

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,00:14)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2011,19:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2011,19:51)

Kathi

God is not man ,he does not change his mind ,when he made a decision he does it ,only in is own time,

so Christ was created when God starts no such thing like men ;will i do it ?will I not do it ? is it a good decision or a bad one, ect;their is no doubt in God

when scriptures says Christ his first creation then he his FIRST of creation,

Pierre

Pierre,
you wrote:

Quote

when scriptures says Christ his first creation then he his FIRST of creation,

But scriptures never says that Christ is His first creation.

Stick to scripture…God doesn't need you to rewrite it for Him

Kathi

if the truth of God was your primary focus ,you would understand his word more clearly ,even Christ says he comes from above ,but you can already read his mind and say that it was not what he meant ,and so refuse to accept his preexisting,and so think that he was with God ,I mean Christ his son ,and so believe that God at one point never was alone,

Paul in Colossians say;Col 1:15 He(Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,

would Paul be a dreamer ?? this is written in black and white ,NO??

Pierre

November 16, 2011 at 8:45 pm#262454

Participant

Pierre,

Quote

this is written in black and white ,NO??

Nothing there says anything about the Son being created. It does say that all things were created by Him though

Kathi

November 16, 2011 at 10:58 pm#262487

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2011,13:45)

Pierre,

Quote

this is written in black and white ,NO??

Nothing there says anything about the Son being created. It does say that all things were created by Him though

Kathi

hopeless

November 16, 2011 at 11:33 pm#262490

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2011,00:06)

We both have a supernatural being that pre-existed and was with the Father so why is the Father telling that person that He is Jehovah??? Hmmm??? Either way, that pre-existent person would already know that, wouldn't He?

So what's the answer, Kathi? Because in Is 42, Jehovah is clearly telling His messiah that Jehovah is HIS Name. And He is clearly telling His messiah that HE will share His glory with no other.

Don't make this about WHY Jehovah told His servant something he should have already known. I don't know the answer to that, nor do you. But the POINT is: WHOSE Name is Jehovah? The One doing the talking? Or the one He is talking to? And WHOSE glory will not be shared with another? The One doing the talking? Or the one He is talking to? Those are the points I'm making, Kathi.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2011,00:06)

Kathi, you do realize that I'm only one person, right? Remember the story I told you about falling off a horse? Well, that happened to “Mike the HN member” AND to “Mike the HN moderator”. And it happened to the ONLY Mike I've ever been – long before I was either HN member OR HN moderator. It still happened to the ONE me.

Jesus is ONE person, Kathi.
1. Do you think Jesus the spirit being doesn't remember walking on the water when he was in human form?

2. Do you think human Jesus didn't remember what his God looked like? (John 6:46)

3. Is there more than ONE Savior of the earth named Jesus?

Kathi, this is a very important issue for us. I must try my best to make you realize how idiotic it is for you to just apply different “natures” to Jesus at different times in order to make scripture conform to your doctrine – as if there exist TWO Jesus Christs. So please directly address the above questions.

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 16 2011,00:06)

Here is a passage that has the Son as the subject regarding creation and also being referred to as 'Jehovah':

10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

This passage is about God, not Jesus. But just to be sure, why not show me another scripture about creation that lists Jesus as the subject? I can surely show you plenty of them that list the God as the subject.

Kathi, I cut my post short so we can address these two issues more fully. The first issue is the most important for me, so please address the bolded questions.

peace,
mike

November 17, 2011 at 1:11 am#262496

Blocked

It should be easy to use the OT to prove that our One God and Heavenly Father created all things. But some members of HN like to nonsensically claim that “Jehovah” consists of both Father AND Son, thereby claiming that any OT scripture about creation speaks of BOTH of them creating.

So here's a small list of scriptures that distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our ONE Creator:

Isaiah 42
5 This is what Jehovah God says—
he who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,
who gives breath to its people,
and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

There is no question that verses 6 and 7 are about the Messiah. That distinguishes the Messiah as someone OTHER THAN “He who created the heavens……..”.

Acts 17
24 The God who made the universe and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

Verse 31 distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “the God who made the universe and EVERYTHING in it”.

And if Jesus is not the One who made all these things, then he has no choice but to be one of the things made.

Acts 4
24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

Verse 30 distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the “Sovereign Lord” who “made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and EVERYTHING in them”.

If Jesus is not the One who made all these things, then he must be one of the things that One made.

Revelation 4
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”

Revelation 5
1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

It is clear to all that the Lamb is Jesus Christ. And it is evident that the Lamb took a scroll from the hand of “him who sits on the throne” – so the Lamb can't BE “him who sits on the throne”. Yet the One credited with “creating all things” is not the Lamb, but the One from whom the Lamb takes the scroll.

Therefore, once again Jesus is distinguished as someone OTHER THAN the “Lord and God” who “created all things”. And once again, if Jesus is NOT that One, then he has no choice but to be one of the things created BY that One.

peace,
mike

November 18, 2011 at 4:15 am#262598

Participant

Mike,
you wrote:

Quote

So what's the answer, Kathi? Because in Is 42, Jehovah is clearly telling His messiah that Jehovah is HIS Name. And He is clearly telling His messiah that HE will share His glory with no other.

Duh…I know that Jehovah is the Father's name and that is why I have brought up the verse that has Jesus talking to the Father about the Father giving Him His name too.

Sorta like you and your son. You are a 'Boll' and he is a 'Boll' and your family is the 'Boll' family. You together are not a Boll Boll.

Quote

Don't make this about WHY Jehovah told His servant something he should have already known.

It was YOU that was making this about why Jehovah told His servant something he should have already known.

Quote

But the POINT is: WHOSE Name is Jehovah? The One doing the talking? Or the one He is talking to? And WHOSE glory will not be shared with another? The One doing the talking? Or the one He is talking to? Those are the points I'm making, Kathi.

Both are named Jehovah. Tell me Mike, which one of you and your son is named 'Boll?' Can a Boll talk to a Boll? Also, the Father's glory is His Son. Why would He give His Son to His Son. Obviously He wouldn't give His Son His glory since His Son IS the radiance of His glory.

Quote

Kathi, you do realize that I'm only one person, right?

Remember the story I told you about falling off a horse? Well, that happened to “Mike the HN member” AND to “Mike the HN moderator”. And it happened to the ONLY Mike I've ever been – long before I was either HN member OR HN moderator. It still happened to the ONE me.

I suppose you were a father in your baby pictures too…and your mother probably addressed you as Cody's father when you were getting your diaper changed.

People address people according to the role they have in the context of the conversation. Get over it Mike. Just accept it.

Quote

1. Do you think Jesus the spirit being doesn't remember walking on the water when he was in human form?

2. Do you think human Jesus didn't remember what his God looked like? (John 6:46)

3. Is there more than ONE Savior of the earth named Jesus?

1. No.
2. No…Jesus was never separated from God by sin.
3. No.
What is your point?

Quote

This is about Jesus as Jehovah and to say it isn't you have to be very stubborn or confused…look at all the 'you's' in the verses surrounding it:
Heb 1:10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED[/B] YOU[/B]
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

How can anyone fear God and say that these verses are not speaking about the Son as the 'you?'

You can show me plenty of verses that show God as the subject of creation…obviously!! Jehovah is the creator. Jehovah is the name of the Father and the Son and their unity together with their Spirit. The Father and the Son together with their Spirit created all things.

Kathi

November 18, 2011 at 4:24 am#262599

Participant

Mike,

you wrote:

Quote

If Jesus is not the One who made all these things, then he must be one of the things that One made.

That's false teaching.

If Jesus is not the one being addressed, that doesn't mean that He wasn't with the one being addressed and that the one being addressed didn't make all things by Jesus. Of course when He is spoken of as the 'man' then we know the 'man' wasn't the maker of creation but the God as the Son who became man was with the One who made all things by His Son.

Kathi

November 18, 2011 at 5:10 am#262603