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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2011,17:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2011,21:18) The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
Hi Kathi,Do YOU believe the words of those creeds?
Mike,
The Apostle's Creed, yes, the Nicene Creed, yes, the Athanasian Creed, I would change some wording regarding there being a third person and the damnation of all who don't believe that creed word for word.God bless,
KathiKeith,
you said:Quote The only explanation is God is a plural being!
Glad to have you back. You speak of the unity a little differently than I do. I would say that the explanation is that the Godhead is made up of more than one being, acting in unity as one God authority with their Holy Spirit, each being having deity nature.Blessings,
KathiNicene Creed
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Icon depicting Emperor Constantine (center) and the Fathers of the First Council of Nicaea of 325 as holding the Niceno–Constantinopolitan Creed of 381
The Nicene Creed (Latin: Symbolum Nicaenum) is the creed or profession of faith (Greek: Σύμβολον τῆς Πίστεως) that is most widely used in Christian liturgy. It is called Nicene ( /ˈnaɪsiːn/) because, in its original form, it was adopted in the city of Nicaea by the first ecumenical council, which met there in the year 325.[1]The Nicene Creed has been normative to the Anglican Church, the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church including the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Old Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church and most Protestant denominations.[2] The Apostles' Creed, which in its present form is later, is also broadly accepted in the West, but is not used in the East. One or other of these two creeds is recited in the Roman Rite Mass directly after the homily on all Sundays and Solemnities (Tridentine Feasts of the First Class). In the Byzantine Rite Liturgy, the Nicene Creed is recited on all occasions, following the Litany of Supplication.
For current English translations of the Nicene Creed, see English versions of the Nicene Creed in current use.
The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
We used to say this in the Catholic Church at least once a year… i don't thing it is completely right, since it does indorse the Catholic Church….
It is the Universal Church, meaning Catholic Church who Constantine indorsed in the third century…the beginning of the Church…I do not endorse it any longer…Even so I do believe in part of it……Peace IreneQuote (Pastry @ Nov. 04 2011,09:19) Jack! But Scriptures do say this Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Peace Irene
Exactly! All things were made by Jesus. The Father did not parrticipate in the actual work of the creation. The Father “made” the creation in the sense that He “ordained” or “appointed” the creation to come into being. The Greek word “poieo” which in English is translated “made” often means “to appoint.”The Father “appointed” the creation to come into being. But Jesus is the “hands on” Creator who carried out the Father's ordinance. The Father Himself said that the heavens and the earth are the work of Jesus' own hands (Heb. 1:8-10).
I believe the Father!
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,23:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2011,17:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2011,21:18) The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
Hi Kathi,Do YOU believe the words of those creeds?
Mike,
The Apostle's Creed, yes, the Nicene Creed, yes, the Anathasian Creed, I would change some wording regarding there being a third person and the damnation of all who don't believe that creed word for word.God bless,
Kathi
Same with me, Kathi. And I also agree with the Athanasius creed – just not with the anathema tacked to the end of it. (If I'm remembering that creed correctly)So if you also believe these creeds, why is it that you think we have co-Creators? All three of those creeds list God the Father as the Creator, and Jesus Christ as someone other than God the Father. Ie: We believe in the ONE who created…………………..and also in that ONE's Son.
There is no mention about Jesus creating anything in those creeds.
peace,
mikeJack,
Why don't you address MY posts?
For the last couple of months, you seem to pop in and post a quick (and unscriptural) comment, but then you don't address the flaws in that comment when I point them out to you.Why is that?
Mike,
Trinitarians, nor myself believe that Jesus is the Father that He was begotten from which you don't seem to accept. The Nicene Creed does give the Son of God credit for all creation as being created BY the Son. From this phrase we see that the Son worked with the Father in the act of creation: “by whom all things were made.”Blessings,
KathiMike,
You said:Quote And I also agree with the Athanasius creed – just not with the anathema tacked to the end of it. (If I'm remembering that creed correctly) Read what it says and then tell me whether or not you agree with the Athanasius creed..all except the anathema.
Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
Kathi
Oops! Nope, that is NOT the creed I agree with as scriptural, Kathi. It is apparently only the Apostle's and the Nicene with which I agree. (All except for the anathema they added to the end of the Nicene.)
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2011,23:31) Mike,
Trinitarians, nor myself believe that Jesus is the Father that He was begotten from which you don't seem to accept. The Nicene Creed does give the Son of God credit for all creation as being created BY the Son. From this phrase we see that the Son worked with the Father in the act of creation: “by whom all things were made.”Blessings,
Kathi
Let's look at these four things in conjunction with each other:1. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. – Nicene Creed of 325
2. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God………By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth] – Nicence Creed of 325
3. Trinitarians, nor myself believe that Jesus is the Father that He was begotten from. – Kathi, circa 2011
4. He who creates is one, and he THROUGH whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian, circa 200 AD
Now we all have come to know that the Greek word “dia” can mean “by” OR “through”. And that word is used in a few scriptures describing Christ's involvement in the act of creation. But which rendering is more logical and fits with the rest of the scriptures: “by” or “through”?
The answer lies in the conjunction of Tertullian's words, as quoted above, and Paul's words in 1 Cor 8:6. Tertullian's statement would make no sense if the word meant “by”, because then he would have been saying that the one who creates is ONE, and the OTHER ONE who creates is ANOTHER. In other words, his entire statement of logic would become defunct if Tertullian was speaking of “co-creators”. This is proof that Tertullian understood the Greek word “dia” to mean THROUGH in the verses that speak of Christ's role in the act of creation. Are you with me so far, Kathi?
1 Cor 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Out of the few scriptures that use “dia” in reference to Christ's role in the act of creation, this one allows for no second guessing. Like Tertullian's statement above, the distinction between the One FROM whom all things came and the one THROUGH whom all things came is crystal clear. And to translate the Greek word “dia” as “by” in 1 Cor 8:6 would work against the distinction Paul was making BETWEEN our ONE God and our ONE Lord – a DISTINCTION made clear by Paul's words in 1 Cor 11:3, “and the head of Christ is God”.
Therefore, the ONLY valid translation of “dia” in 1 Cor 8:6 is “through” – as even the KJV translators realized when they opted to change the word “by” in the original KJV to “through” in the NKJV.
Are you still with me? Do you see that there was One FROM whom all things came, and another THROUGH whom all things came?
Okay, then on to the Creeds: “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.”
To me, this is crystal clear that we have ONE God; that ONE God is the Father; and that ONE God was the sole Maker of all things. This fact corresponds to the entire OT, as well as being confirmed by Acts 4:24 and Rev 4:11 – scriptures where it is made CLEAR that only ONE created all things.
So, what do we do with this part of the creed, which refers to Jesus: “By whom all things were made”? We use the knowledge we've gained about the word “dia”, that's what. We know that the Nicene Creed was written in Greek, and that the word used was “dia” in this reference to Jesus. And we then acknowledge that if the Creed is in fact scriptural, the authors' intent for the word “dia” was one of “THROUGH”, not “BY”. Because not only does “through” fit in with 1 Cor 8:6, which IS scripture, and therefore what the Creed was supposedly based upon, but it also fits in with the words of Tertullian, who is “perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity (Latin trinitas), and giving the oldest extant formal exposition of a Trinitarian theology.” (Wikipedia)
See? Even though Tertullian thought of God as three persons in one Godhead, he didn't make the unscriptural claims about our ONE Creator that are made by Trinitarians today. Instead, he knew and acknowledged that the “He who creates” was only ONE “person in the Godhead”, while the “he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created” was a DIFFERENT “person in the Godhead”.
It is the same with the Nicene Creed, Kathi. Because, as you yourself pointed out, “Trinitarians, nor myself believe that Jesus is the Father that He was begotten from.”
And since the Creed begins with “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible”, the OBVIOUS intent of the word “dia” in the phrase “DIA whom all things were made” was a meaning, not of “BY”, but of “THROUGH”.
In conclusion, the Nicene Creed is actually scriptural when you understand that it says all things were created BY God the Father THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ – which is exactly what is meant by the words of the Creed; and is actually scriptural.
It is most unfortunate that the English Trinitarians who translated the Creed from Greek into English unfaithfully render “dia” as “by”, which fits into neither 1 Cor 8:6, nor the very logical words of Tertullian – a man whose teachings many of them followed.
Kathi, the Nicene Creed speaks of ONE Creator, not “co-creators”. If you truly accept the Creed as scriptural truth, then you must also accept that we have ONE Creator: God the Father.
peace,
mikeMike,
So would you please confirm for me that all things came from one person and through another person and therefore there were two persons involved in creation…right?Also, it seems that you would prefer the YLT's translation of Col 1:16 which says:
because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
All things came through the Son…right…not the Father?
Thanks,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2011,23:15) Mike,
So would you please confirm for me that all things came from one person and through another person and therefore there were two persons involved in creation…right?
Hi Kathi,Does the fact that all things came THROUGH Jesus mean he is a “co-creator” with God? I say no. God alone created me THROUGH my parents, yet I don't consider them to be God's “co-creators”. Do you consider yourself to be a co-creator with God based on the fact that your children came FROM God and THROUGH you?
The words “involved with creation” are ambiguous, IMO. We could say that the sun is “involved in creation”, because without it, there would be no new trees. Will you call the sun God's Co-creator? Or is Jesus the only creation of your God that you are determined to place higher than what is taught?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2011,23:15) Also, it seems that you would prefer the YLT's translation of Col 1:16 which says: because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
I believe that both instances of “dia” in Col 1:16 should be rendered as “through”. That is the translation that aligns with 1 Cor 8:6, where there is no doubt that all things came FROM God and THROUGH Jesus. Plus, it aligns with the scriptures that teach us God ALONE created everything – such as Acts 4:24 and Rev 4:11.So if you changed the word “in” to “through” in Young's version, I would be a happy camper.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2011,23:15) All things came through the Son…right…not the Father?
Yes, that is my understanding. Will you bring up Romans 11:36 now?Also, will you comment on the Creeds? Don't you find it fascinating that the early church fathers recognized God the Father as the sole Creator? Do you find interesting that Tertullian, the first man to utter the phrase “triune Godhead”, still understood the clear distinction between the one who created, and the one THROUGH WHOM the thing was created?
peace,
mikeMike,
you said:Quote I believe that both instances of “dia” in Col 1:16 should be rendered as “through”. Can you show me where 'dia' is used more than once in Col 1:16?
I asked:
Quote All things came through the Son…right…not the Father? You replied:
Quote Yes, that is my understanding. Will you bring up Romans 11:36 now? Romans 11:36 does provide you with an opportunity to see the compound unity of Jehovah since you have admitted that there is one that all things are from and ANOTHER that all things are through.
Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
The context in the above passage is regarding Jehovah as can be seen when looking up the OT verse that v. 34 alludes to.
Isaiah 40:13 Who hath meted out the Spirit of Jehovah, And, being His counsellor, doth teach Him!
More to come…
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2011,17:02) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,23:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2011,17:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2011,21:18) The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
Hi Kathi,Do YOU believe the words of those creeds?
Mike,
The Apostle's Creed, yes, the Nicene Creed, yes, the Anathasian Creed, I would change some wording regarding there being a third person and the damnation of all who don't believe that creed word for word.God bless,
Kathi
Same with me, Kathi. And I also agree with the Athanasius creed – just not with the anathema tacked to the end of it. (If I'm remembering that creed correctly)So if you also believe these creeds, why is it that you think we have co-Creators? All three of those creeds list God the Father as the Creator, and Jesus Christ as someone other than God the Father. Ie: We believe in the ONE who created…………………..and also in that ONE's Son.
There is no mention about Jesus creating anything in those creeds.
peace,
mike
Mike,Read the Nicene Creed and tell me whether or not you believe it:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Thanks,
KathiMike said top Kathi:
Quote So if you changed the word “in” to “through” in Young's version, I would be a happy camper.
Mike will have to remain an unhappy camper because the oldest manuscripts say that all things were created “in” (ev) Jesus. Mike once said that the NIV is his favorite translation and it says “in” (ev). It is apparent that copyists changed the preposition from ev to dia which shows that that to them there was no meaningful difference.Mike creates the difference himself thus showing himself to be the novice he is.
Mike's reference to Acts 4:24 has been dealt with before. The word “poieo” often means “to appoint” or “to ordain.” It means that the Father ordained the creation. But Jesus is the “hands on” creator per the Father's own testimony (Hebrews 1:8-10).
The Father said it and I BELIEVE IT!
KJ
KJ
Quote Mike creates the difference himself thus showing himself to be the novice he is. KJ creates the difference himself thus showing himself to be the novice he is
is this not equal to all men ?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 10 2011,03:40) KJ Quote Mike creates the difference himself thus showing himself to be the novice he is. KJ creates the difference himself thus showing himself to be the novice he is
is this not equal to all men ?
Pierre
How about offering an intelligent reply.What difference in the two prepositions did I create? Mike thinks he is safe if the preposition is “dia” because HE makes the difference. But the oldest manuscripts say “ev” which makes Mike one unhappy camper. The copyists used “dia” (through).
All things were created “in” or “through” Christ. It makes NO difference!
Supper is put on the table “in” or “through” me. There is no difference!
Mike needs his silly little novice word games with prepositions in order to survive on this board and everybody knows it. To just survive is the best that Mike can do.
KJ
KJ
the question is ;All things were created “in” or “through” Christ. It makes NO difference!
let see ;if it is “IN” is this not what Paul says in;Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together
so if all things are created by him and for him, and HE is before all things, and that all things hold together by him,;;;;now it says Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. SO HE IS THE FIRST THAT WAS CREATED BY GOD,AND SO,
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,;;THE REASON WHY ALL THINGS ARE IN CHRIST IT IS BECAUSE GOD WAS PLEASED TO DO IT SO CHRIST WAS GIVEN SUPREMACY AND FULLNESS OVER ALL CREATION EXCEPT HIS OWN LIVE WHAT IS DEPENDING ON GOD ,so if we say it is IN Christ what does it really mean ?
and if we say it is through Christ what does it really mean ?THAN GOD MADE AND CREATED ALL THINGS WITH CHRIST IN CHARGE TO OVER SEE ALL THINGS ,THINGS THAT HE STILL DO TODAY ,TO BRING ALL THINGS TO THE END THAT GOD AS PLAN.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 09 2011,05:22) Romans 11:36 does provide you with an opportunity to see the compound unity of Jehovah since you have admitted that there is one that all things are from and ANOTHER that all things are through. 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Kathi
OR……………………..International Standard Version (©2008)
For all things are from him, by him, and for him. Glory belongs to him forever! Amen.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Because all is from him, and in him, and all is by him, that to him would be praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities. Amen.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Everything is from him and by him and for him. Glory belongs to him forever! Amen!Douay-Rheims Bible
For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.Webster's Bible Translation
For from him, and by him, and to him are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.Weymouth New Testament
For the universe owes its origin to Him, was created by Him, and has its aim and purpose in Him. To Him be the glory throughout the Ages! Amen.As Jack will be happy to point out, the word “dia” in Rom 11:36 can just as easily mean “because of” of “by”.
Kathi and Jack,
Why are we playing with words here? Is it not clear to you from the Creeds and from scriptures like Acts 4:24 and Rev 4:11 that God the Father is the sole Creator of heaven, earth, and EVERYTHING IN THEM? (And yes, “everything” would include God's very first creation – Jesus.)
If you translate “dia” as “by” in the case of Jesus, then you are going against the scriptures I just listed and the creeds. So…………..which word can we translate “dia” as that would match 1 Cor 8:6, Acts 4:24, Rev 4:11, AND the creeds? That word is “through”.
You can play word games until the cows come home if it makes you feel good about your “man of lawlessness” doctrine. But the scriptural fact of the matter is that we have ONE God, the FATHER – who created all things. And we have only the ONE Lord that the Father set in place – THROUGH WHOM all things came.
Kathi and Jack, is Jesus the Son OF God, or God Himself? Which one does Jesus say he is? And why won't you believe him?
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