- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2011,05:03) Quote (Pastry @ Nov. 01 2011,06:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 01 2011,14:19) Irene,
I think that you agree with number 6.
Kathi! The created Son of God is also the only begotten Son of God, which is in essence the same….So when we say one, we should also understand the other….IMO
Irene,
Think about it. Are there other created sons of God, i.e. angels and men? If so, then created and begotten cannot mean the same thing here because only one son is said to be begotten of God. Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God…not one of many begotten sons of God. Do you see the difference?Kathi
Kathi! look up the word begotten and born….from the internetThere is but one eternal Son of God. He is called the Only-begotten, which means the only one born of God the Father. Begotten as a word simply means born or generated. Irene
Irene,
you wrote:Quote There is but one eternal Son of God. He is called the Only-begotten, which means the only one born of God the Father. Amen, with that I agree 100%
Kathi
Kathi,
You gave too many options so I voted “other.” The eternal Word who became Son in time is ALONE the Creator. The Father “made” only in the sense that He “ordained” or “appointed.”
The eternal Word became Son (was begotten) for our salvation. Had Adam and Eve not sinned there would have been no need for a Son.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,03:38) Kathi, You gave too many options so I voted “other.” The eternal Word who became Son in time is ALONE the Creator. The Father “made” only in the sense that He “ordained” or “appointed.”
The eternal Word became Son (was begotten) for our salvation. Had Adam and Eve not sinned there would have been no need for a Son.
Jack
Hi Jack,Who is the Creator? … YHVH!
Anything more is just adding to “The Word” of God!
Therefore, this thread is purposeless mire.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Jack,
Thanks for voting. You give an uncommon response for a trinitarian, don't you?God bless,
KathiQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 03 2011,04:42) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,03:38) Kathi, You gave too many options so I voted “other.” The eternal Word who became Son in time is ALONE the Creator. The Father “made” only in the sense that He “ordained” or “appointed.”
The eternal Word became Son (was begotten) for our salvation. Had Adam and Eve not sinned there would have been no need for a Son.
Jack
Hi Jack,Who is the Creator? … YHVH!
Anything more is just adding to “The Word” of God!
Therefore, this thread is purposeless mire.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Then the Father is adding to the Word of God (Heb. 1:8-10).KJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,04:43) Hi Jack,
Thanks for voting. You give an uncommon response for a trinitarian, don't you?God bless,
Kathi
Had to get your ad populum dig in eh Kathi?“Jack's view is uncommon among Trinitarians and so it must be wrong.”
Well, your view is altogether an illegitimate son because it has no father. I at least have Tertullian and the Apologists.
Now don't try and get defensive on me. I said that your VIEW is illegitimate. I did not say that you are illegitimate.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 02 2011,10:38) The eternal Word who became Son in time is ALONE the Creator.
So then Acts 4:24 and Rev 4:11 are lies?
Actually, those two scriptures sum up the truth of the question in this poll: The Father ALONE created everything. Other scripture explain that He chose to do that THROUGH His only begotten Son.
Jack, all things couldn't have been created through the Son of God if the Son of God wasn't a Son until Adam and Eve sinned.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 02 2011,12:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,04:43) Hi Jack,
Thanks for voting. You give an uncommon response for a trinitarian, don't you?God bless,
Kathi
Had to get your ad populum dig in eh Kathi?“Jack's view is uncommon among Trinitarians and so it must be wrong.”
Well, your view is altogether an illegitimate son because it has no father. I at least have Tertullian and the Apologists.
Now don't try and get defensive on me. I said that your VIEW is illegitimate. I did not say that you are illegitimate.
Jack
Do I detect dissention in the ranks?Jack,
If my view were 'illegitimate' so would all Christians that confess these three creeds. Obviously you do not confess these creeds common to Christianity because they either show a belief in God the Father as the creator and /or a belief that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Both points you deny. So how is it that you are a trinitarian? Trinitarians believe these creeds.The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.
Athanasius Creed:
…29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,…
Kathi
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,05:32) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 03 2011,04:42) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,03:38) Kathi, You gave too many options so I voted “other.” The eternal Word who became Son in time is ALONE the Creator. The Father “made” only in the sense that He “ordained” or “appointed.”
The eternal Word became Son (was begotten) for our salvation. Had Adam and Eve not sinned there would have been no need for a Son.
Jack
Hi Jack,Who is the Creator? … YHVH!
Anything more is just adding to “The Word” of God!
Therefore, this thread is purposeless mire.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Then the Father is adding to the Word of God (Heb. 1:8-10).KJ
Hi Jack, nope.In Hebrews 1:8-10, the “HolySpirit” is affirming to Jesus that: (1)YHVH's throne is forever,
(2)YHVH's kingdom is righteousness, (3)Jesus is the Messiah, and (4)YHVH is the Creator… compare with Psalm 45:7-6.But unto the Son he saith, (1)Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
(2)a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness,
and hated iniquity; (3)therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And, (4)Thou, LORD(YHVH), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (Heb 1:8-10)(1)Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: (2)the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
(3)therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Psalms 45:6-7)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,14:18) Jack,
If my view were 'illegitimate' so would all Christians that confess these three creeds. Obviously you do not confess these creeds common to Christianity because they either show a belief in God the Father as the creator and /or a belief that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Both points you deny. So how is it that you are a trinitarian? Trinitarians believe these creeds.
The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.
Athanasius Creed:
…29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,…
Kathi
Kathi,I was talking about your view that God has procreative strength. I forgot that we were simply talking about the person who did the actual creating. Sorry for that. I just spouted off thinking, “Here she goes again.” Most of use here reject some or all of tradition. So please stop appealing to tradition. All here just want the scriptures.
I am weary of your incessant appeals to the fathers. I tried to discourse with you in the Hot Seat regarding my Incarnational Sonship view and you would not stop citing the fathers or Gill or someone. Now you're saying that my view is not common among trinitarians. I am tired of it!
I know that my view is not the commonly held view but I don't care! My faith is in the power of God and NOT in the wisdom of men!
OKAY?
Discuss scripture ALONE with me of please don't address me.
I have come to love you immensly but you annoy me with your ad populum tactics.
Jack
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2011,19:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2011,22:36) Pierre,
#1 would be only the Father if the Word is not a person but His expression…think.
But the Word IS a person. The Father ALONE created all things THROUGH that person.
If all things were created through a (person) then the Father “alone” could not have created all things.Your words are lies and a misrepresentation of the truth. The only explanation is God is a plural being!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2011,04:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2011,19:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2011,22:36) Pierre,
#1 would be only the Father if the Word is not a person but His expression…think.
But the Word IS a person. The Father ALONE created all things THROUGH that person.
If all things were created through a (person) then the Father “alone” could not have created all things.Your words are lies and a misrepresentation of the truth. The only explanation is God is a plural being!
WJ
Hi Keith,Pierre lies also because the Father Himself attributed the creation to Christ's hands (Hebrews 1:8-10) Christ ALONE is the “hands on” Creator. These guys claim that the Father alone is their God and then contradict Him.
Jack
Correction….
It was Mike who said that the Father alone created. Sorry Pierre. I got mixed up by quotes within quotes. Again I apologize to Pierre.
Jack
Jack! But Scriptures do say this
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Peace Irene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2011,11:15) If all things were created through a (person) then the Father “alone” could not have created all things.
The Father ALONE created you, Keith. But He did that THROUGH Jesus and your parents, grandparents, Adam and Eve, etc.It is YOUR Trinitarian church father who said: “He who creates is ONE, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.”
If Tertullian and I can easily understand this concept, why can't you?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 03 2011,11:15) Your words are lies and a misrepresentation of the truth. The only explanation is God is a plural being!
How can my words be both “lies” AND “a misrepresentation of the truth”? Pick one or the other, please.Our God Jehovah is ONE, Keith. And that ONE only true God has a Son called Jesus Christ.
Keith, who created all things in Acts 4:24? How about in Rev 4:11? This question applies also to Sonny Roo.
peace,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,13:00) Pierre lies also because the Father Himself attributed the creation to Christ's hands (Hebrews 1:8-10) Christ ALONE is the “hands on” Creator.
Jack,I agree that Heb 1:8-9 are about Jesus, and HIS OWN God who placed him above his peers.
But verses 10-12 refer to Jehovah.
Jack, who exactly did the creating in Acts 4:24 and Rev 4:11? More importantly, is Jesus included as a “co-creator” in either of those verses? Because if he's not, then he would have no choice but to be one of the “ALL things” created BY the ONE who DID do the creating in those verses. Which is in scriptural harmony with Jesus being the “firstborn of every creature” and the “beginning of the creation of God”.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2011,21:18) The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
Hi Kathi,Do YOU believe the words of those creeds?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Nov. 03 2011,11:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2011,14:18) Jack,
If my view were 'illegitimate' so would all Christians that confess these three creeds. Obviously you do not confess these creeds common to Christianity because they either show a belief in God the Father as the creator and /or a belief that the Son was begotten before all worlds. Both points you deny. So how is it that you are a trinitarian? Trinitarians believe these creeds.
The Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,The Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.
Athanasius Creed:
…29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,…
Kathi
Kathi,I was talking about your view that God has procreative strength. I forgot that we were simply talking about the person who did the actual creating. Sorry for that. I just spouted off thinking, “Here she goes again.” Most of use here reject some or all of tradition. So please stop appealing to tradition. All here just want the scriptures.
I am weary of your incessant appeals to the fathers. I tried to discourse with you in the Hot Seat regarding my Incarnational Sonship view and you would not stop citing the fathers or Gill or someone. Now you're saying that my view is not common among trinitarians. I am tired of it!
I know that my view is not the commonly held view but I don't care! My faith is in the power of God and NOT in the wisdom of men!
OKAY?
Discuss scripture ALONE with me of please don't address me.
I have come to love you immensly but you annoy me with your ad populum tactics.
Jack
Ok Jack,
Sorry for bothering you. My desire is to show you that to many trinitarians, you may be considered a non-trinitarian or anti-trinitarian because you don't agree with the creeds. I guess that everybody in the believer's section agrees with some portion of those creeds but often, in the past, you have made a division with labeling two groups, one 'trinitarian' and the other 'non or anti-trinitarian' and I think that there needs to be different distinctions since to many Christians, you would also be a non-trinitarian since you don't agree with some basic tenets of the faith as written in the creeds of the trinitarian churches. So, I am telling you that it annoys me when you start calling people anti-trinitarian when you don't agree with mainstream trinitarians either. I'm not saying that you have said that recently but you have done so in the past quite a bit.Also, you get after me for bringing up the church fathers but you are the one that boasted the support of Tertullian and the apologists. You were the first on this thread to mention them. You are telling me how much that annoys you when I do that to you. That seems like a double standard. If you participate here, you need to not let little things like that get to you so much. Personally, I don't care if you show what the church father's say…I like to learn. I will continue to refer to them when I think it is helpful to the situation even if it annoys some. It seemed to help you re-think your response here even if it brought out your anger.
So chill out Jack…you are a very nice man when you are not angry and I am very glad to have gotten to know you better.
Love to you,
Kathi
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
