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Mike,
Ok Mike, take care. I may stay and address some of your arguments but you do not need to feel like you have to respond.Kathi
When asked for scriptures that said wisdom was created besides the questionable one of Prov. 8:22, I was given this one but I fail to see where it speaks of wisdom being 'created' in any translation. Here are many translations and not one of them use 'created' or a form of the word.
Job 28:27
New International Version (©1984)
then he looked at wisdom and appraised it; he confirmed it and tested it.New Living Translation (©2007)
Then he saw wisdom and evaluated it. He set it in place and examined it thoroughly.English Standard Version (©2001)
then he saw it and declared it; he established it, and searched it out.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
then he saw it and announced it. He confirmed it and examined it.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.American King James Version
Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yes, and searched it out.American Standard Version
Then did he see it, and declare it; He established it, yea, and searched it out.Douay-Rheims Bible
Then he saw it, and declared, and prepared, and searched it.Darby Bible Translation
Then did he see it, and declare it; he established it, yea, and searched it out;English Revised Version
Then did he see it, and declare it; he established it, yea, and searched it out.Webster's Bible Translation
Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.World English Bible
then he saw it, and declared it. He established it, yes, and searched it out.Young's Literal Translation
Then He hath seen and declareth it, He hath prepared it, and also searched it out,So, this is not a passage to prove that wisdom was created…prepared/established/confirmed/set in place-yes, but not 'created.'
Next a closer look at the Prov 8:22 passage.
KathiHere are the many ways Prov 8:22 is translated:
NET 8:22 The Lord created me as the beginning of his works,
before his deeds of long ago.New International Version (©1984)
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;New Living Translation (©2007)
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.English Standard Version (©2001)
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
“The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.American King James Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.American Standard Version
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.English Revised Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Webster's Bible Translation
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.World English Bible
“Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.Young's Literal Translation
Jehovah possessed me — the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.I see twice that the word 'created' is used as the translation and only twice. This should cause one to question the validity of that translation. Let's look to see how the same Hebrew word is translated in the rest of Proverbs when speaking of wisdom in the next post especially in the NET Bible and the Aramaic Bible that translate it in this verse as 'created.'
Kathi
Ok, as promised, here are all the times that Proverbs uses the word translated as 'created' twice in Prov 8:22 from the above post of the 15 other translations where it is not translated as 'created' Let's analyze how many times it is also translated as 'created' in Proverbs elsewhere when speaking of wisdom:
Prov 1:5
NET© 1:5 (Let the wise also 1 hear 2 and gain 3 instruction, and let the discerning 4 acquire 5 guidance! 6 )
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
A wise man will listen and will add to his wisdom and the intelligent will gain leadership
NAS: And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,
KJV: and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
INT: of understanding wise will acquireProverbs 4:5
NET:4:7 Wisdom is supreme 13 – so acquire wisdom,
and whatever you acquire, 15 acquire understanding! 16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Get wisdom and get understanding, and do not turn aside from the sayings of my mouth.”
NAS: Acquire wisdom! Acquire
KJV: Get wisdom, get
INT: Acquire wisdom AcquireProverbs 4:5
NAS: wisdom! Acquire understanding!
KJV: Get wisdom, get understanding: forget
INT: Acquire wisdom Acquire understanding norProverbs 4:7
NET:4:7 Wisdom is supreme 13 – so 14 acquire wisdom,
and whatever you acquire, 15 acquire understanding! 16
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Wisdom is the summit; get wisdom, and with all your possessions purchase understanding.
NAS: of wisdom [is]: Acquire wisdom;
KJV: [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom:
INT: the beginning of wisdom Acquire wisdom allProverbs 4:7
NAS: your acquiring, get understanding.
INT: all your acquiring get understandingProverbs 8:22
NET:The Lord created me as the beginning 40 of his works, 41
before his deeds of long ago.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”
NAS: The LORD possessed me at the beginning
KJV: The LORD possessed me in the beginning
INT: the LORD possessed the beginning of his wayProverbs 15:32
NET:15:32 The one who refuses correction despises himself, 95
but whoever hears 96 reproof acquires understanding. 97
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The one that detests discipline hates his soul and the one that hears correction possesses wisdom.
NAS: to reproof acquires understanding.
KJV: reproof getteth understanding.
INT: listens to reproof acquires understandingProverbs 16:16
NET:16:16 How much better it is to acquire wisdom than gold;
to acquire understanding is more desirable 56 than silver.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Possessing wisdom is better than gold, and possessing understanding, better than silver.
NAS: much better it is to get wisdom
KJV: How much better [is it] to get wisdom
INT: get wisdom HowProverbs 16:16
NAS: gold! And to get understanding
KJV: than gold! and to get understanding
INT: better gold get understanding is to be chosenProverbs 17:16
NET:17:16 Of what 55 use is money in the hand of a fool, 56
since he has no intention 57 of acquiring wisdom? 58
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Why does property go to a fool when he has no heart to possess wisdom?
NAS: of a fool to buy wisdom,
KJV: of a fool to get wisdom,
INT: the hand of a fool to buy wisdom heartProverbs 18:15
NET: The discerning person 50 acquires knowledge,
and the wise person 51 seeks 52 knowledge.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
An ordered heart possesses wisdom, and the ear of the wise listens to knowledge.
NAS: of the prudent acquires knowledge,
KJV: of the prudent getteth knowledge;
INT: the mind of the prudent acquires knowledge and the earProverbs 19:8
NET:19:8 The one who acquires wisdom 25 loves himself; 26
the one who preserves understanding will prosper. 27
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
A friend may say to his companion, “I have acquired wealth”, and then he will be praised.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
He that gets wisdom loves his soul; he that keeps the faith finds good.
NAS: He who gets wisdom loves
KJV: He that getteth wisdom loveth
INT: gets wisdom lovesProverbs 20:14
NET:20:14 “It’s worthless! It’s worthless!” 41 says the buyer, 42
but when he goes on his way, he boasts. 43
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
A friend may say to his companion, “I have acquired wealth”, and then he will be praised.
NAS: says the buyer, But when he goes his way,
KJV: saith the buyer: but when he is gone
INT: bad says the buyer goes thenThe answer is NONE. It is translated as to buy/acquire/possessed/buyer/get/attain but NOT created except in one verse. Just for fun, replace the word in each place where it is bolded with 'created' and see if these could mean that wisdom was created as the first thing that God created before His works of old. You will note that if the word should be 'created' then wisdom can be created by man himself and thus not before the ages.
So, those who establish a doctrine that the Son was 'created' using Prov 8:22 would have a very hard time proving it in light of how Prov uses the same Hebrew word elsewhere in relation to wisdom…none of which was translated as 'created.' Acquire/get/add to is used in the NET Bible or Aramaic Bible several times but created only once.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2012,21:59) Mike,
Ok Mike, take care. I may stay and address some of your arguments but you do not need to feel like you have to respond.Kathi
Deuteronomy 32:6 NIV ©
Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?Genesis 1:4 NIV ©
Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”Genesis 14:19 NIV ©
and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.All those bolded words are the same word that is correctly translated as “created” in Proverbs 8:22.
Add to that the fact that verse 23 says, “I was FASHIONED from ancient times”, and verse 24 says, “When there were no oceans, I was GIVEN BIRTH“.
All these things together argue solidly for the translation of “created” in verse 22.
Just bits and pieces, Kathi. I'm weaning myself off of the long, drawn out discussions the best I can.
peace to you,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 06 2012,17:22) Deuteronomy 32:6 NIV ©
Is this the way you repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?Genesis 1:4 NIV ©
Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”Genesis 14:19 NIV ©
and he blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.All those bolded words are the same word that is correctly translated as “created” in Proverbs 8:22.
Add to that the fact that verse 23 says, “I was FASHIONED from ancient times”, and verse 24 says, “When there were no oceans, I was GIVEN BIRTH“.
All these things together argue solidly for the translation of “created” in verse 22.
Mike,
Are you aware that the translation that you have chosen is used by fewer rather than by the majority of translations, yet you say that you have a 'solid' argument. I don't think that would make a firm foundation for you. Besides the translations that you display are not teaching that the Son is a creation but instead the creator. This should make you realize that your foundation is extremely weak of which you base your doctrine on.Arius likes the translation of 'created' yet even he believed that the Son was the creator. Eusebius also thought of the Son as the creator.
You are standing alone with your view that the Son did not make one single thing.
Please get to know what the NET Bible translators believed about the deity of Christ and ask yourself why, if they thought that Prov 8 22 was teaching that the Son was created and went from non-existent to existent.
Did you place 'created' in all the verses that I quoted for you in replacement of the bolded word where the Hebrew word was translated that you insist on meaning 'created' and did you see that 'created' is obviously not the right translation if it means going from non-existence to existence. Otherwise men become the creators of wisdom (after the ages) as well as God who would therefore not always have had wisdom, but then how would He have created wisdom by wisdom if He didn't have it yet?
You're boat is taking on more and more water, Mike. I advise you to abandon ship
Kathi
PS Resist from commenting Mike, show some restraint, just read this and go think about it. Wean yourself from these crazy responses of yours…
I didn't see one of those scriptures addressed, or verses 23 and 24 of Proverbs 8 addressed.
(And Kathi, notice that I didn't use NetBible, although they also use “create” in the three scriptures I posted for you.)
Mike,
Look it up on Biblos.com and you will see the way the majority translate those passages. It is not a form of 'create.'
Kathi
Mike,
Here are several translations of Prov 8:22-24:
Prov 8:22
New International Version (©1984)
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;New Living Translation (©2007)
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.English Standard Version (©2001)
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
“The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.American King James Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.American Standard Version
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.English Revised Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Webster's Bible Translation
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.World English Bible
“Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.Young's Literal Translation
Jehovah possessed me — the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.Prov 8:23
New International Version (©1984)
I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.New Living Translation (©2007)
I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began.English Standard Version (©2001)
Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And before the world he was possessed by me, and from the beginning, before he would establish the Earth.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I was appointed from everlasting from the first, before the earth began.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was.American King James Version
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.American Standard Version
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.Douay-Rheims Bible
I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.Darby Bible Translation
I was set up from eternity, from the beginning, before the earth was.English Revised Version
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.Webster's Bible Translation
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.World English Bible
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth existed.Young's Literal Translation
From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.Prov 8:24
New International Version (©1984)
When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;New Living Translation (©2007)
I was born before the oceans were created, before the springs bubbled forth their waters.English Standard Version (©2001)
When there were no depths I was brought forth; when there were no springs abounding with water.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“When there were no depths I was brought forth; When there were no springs abounding with water.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Before the depths would be, I was born, and before there would be waters in the springs.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I was born before there were oceans, before there were springs filled with water.King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
When there were no depths,I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.American King James Version
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.American Standard Version
When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.Douay-Rheims Bible
The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:Darby Bible Translation
When there were no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with water.English Revised Version
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.Webster's Bible Translation
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.World English Bible
When there were no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.Young's Literal Translation
In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,The NET Bible Prov 8:22-24
8:22 The Lord created 39 me as the beginning 40 of his works, 41before his deeds of long ago.
8:23 From eternity I was appointed, 42
from the beginning, from before the world existed. 43
8:24 When there were no deep oceans 44 I was born, 45
when there were no springs overflowing 46 with water;
So, Mike, you can see that the words you favor are not at all the words that are used in the majority of translations.
In Prov 8:22 the word “possessed” is the more common translation.
In Prov 8:23, the words “set up” are the more common translation.
In Prov 8:24, the words “brought forth” are the more common translation.All of those terms fit nicely with my understanding that God the Father always possessed the wisdom of the Son and the Son was set up to be whatever future role is meant here, idk. (maybe mediator), and then brought forth, i.e. brought out of the Father before the world began.
Kathi
Oh, that's right. I forgot that “majority” means “truth of the matter”.
Kathi, I'm bored with this. We've gone as far as we can.
Later sister,
mikeKathi
I was right after all;
Quote So, Mike, you can see that the words you favor are not at all the words that are used in the majority of translations.
In Prov 8:22 the word “possessed” is the more common translation.
In Prov 8:23, the words “set up” are the more common translation.
In Prov 8:24, the words “brought forth” are the more common translation.All of those terms fit nicely with my understanding that God the Father always possessed the wisdom of the Son and the Son was set up to be whatever future role is meant here, idk. (maybe mediator), and then brought forth, i.e. brought out of the Father before the world began.
Kathi
create your own scriptures and interpretation,pick here and there a little bit here and a little bit there and an big part of OUR OWN IMAGINATION,
well I can see you are satisfied with it ,so one person follows the dream
Pierre,
If it were my own imagination why do so many believe this and have so for centuries? How is it that I create my own scriptures when all scriptures that I quote are quotes of known translations?
Sorry, you were wrong after all.What does the Bible translation say that you like regarding Prov. 8:22-24.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2012,19:26) Oh, that's right. I forgot that “majority” means “truth of the matter”. Kathi, I'm bored with this. We've gone as far as we can.
Later sister,
mike
Mike,
You like to aim below the belt. Maybe you forget all the scriptures that I put up in Proverbs, each in several translations, comparing how the words in question are not translated as you would like to impose.You also choose to forget that I proved that a son, being born, means that he had to exist beforehand yet you want to hold fast to the idea that the word 'born' means 'create' as in that which did not exist beforehand all of the sudden existed. You even speak of the stillborn baby as a nonperson when I proved that even the stillborn baby is considered a person and is legally registered and buried which is a requirement by the law. I keep proving you wrong on your ideas yet you keep believing the lie.
Move on your shaky ground then but I pray that the Lord will not let you forget the facts that I have shown you which you didn't seem to want to accept.
Kathi
Nick,
The begotten God became flesh so certainly the begotten God was in the flesh of Jesus and spoke to man as a man that was also the begotten God. The begotten God and His Father are IN each other and are inseparable no doubt. They interdependently are God to us through their Spirit. The Father is Almighty through His Son and Spirit. When you understand God Almighty you will understand the Father, Son and Spirit, interdependent to each other in perfect unity.
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