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Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2012,20:48) Mike, It is a good time for you to take a break when you start lying in order to 'move the conversation along.'
Show proof that I lied, Kathi, or apologize.You asked if my son was “alive” before he was born. My son was “alive” when he was a sperm. That does NOT count as any kind of EXISTENCE.
Kathi, are there any records of the EXISTENCE of aborted babies?
The truth is that you want to see a person developing inside someone else as having an “existence” of their own. But they DON'T. Until that umbilical cord is cut, that person is a PART OF the one he is inside, and has no individual existence until he is brought forth from the womb as an INDIVIDUAL person, with a Social Security Number, Birth Certificate, etc. THAT is when a person begins to EXIST as a human being, IMO.
Kathi, I no longer want to discuss this with you because you just make crap up as you go along. You WANT Jesus to have existed from forever “inside of God”
, but you have no proof that this happened.And you reach for the most oddball justifications that you can. I'm tired of chasing your fantasies. Jesus was BORN, which means there was a time he wasn't before he was born. Jesus was CREATED, which means there was a time he wasn't before he was created. Jesus had an ORIGIN, which means there was a time he wasn't before he was originated.
Don't ever call me a liar again.
mike,
i thought you said goodbye? why are you asking kathi again?
btw, have you finished your homework?
jammin,
I respectfully ask you not to talk TO or ABOUT me anymore.
You have already been reported for harassment to the owner of the site.
I am asking you to refrain from bringing my name up for any reason from now on.
why? because you cant answer my questions? well if that's what you want. may GOD open your eyes and all of your believers.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,18:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:40) Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?
Sure.Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?
Mike,
There is where you lied. You said 'sure' and later said that you really don't agree with my question but just said 'sure' to move the conversation along.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,14:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,18:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:40) Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?
Sure.Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?
Mike,
There is where you lied. You said 'sure' and later said that you really don't agree with my question but just said 'sure' to move the conversation along.
The Spirit Mind is the creator of all things. Not the carnal mind that is death, but Let this mind be in you which is in Christ Jesus, so the Spirit Mind is the creator.Mike,
Quote Don't ever call me a liar again.
Then don't say something that you don't mean just to move the conversation along.You are unusually angry tonight. Take a break Mike. Everyone needs a break now and then.
Kathi
Mike,
Quote Kathi, I no longer want to discuss this with you because you just make crap up as you go along. You WANT Jesus to have existed from forever “inside of God” , but you have no proof that this happened.I believe that God didn't become Father at one point but that He always was. I also believe that the Son is a vital part of who God is and always was and always will be. I have not been shown firm proof of it being otherwise. Your shaky ground is just that…shaky.
You don't have to discuss it anymore. You keep discussing it though…just stop.
When you couldn't answer the question about the ABC Pool Cover Company in the other thread then I sensed that you are not serious about trying to see another perspective about the word 'through.' I thought it was a very good example to help you. You can't say I haven't stayed with it an tried to help.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2012,21:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,18:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:40) Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?
Sure.Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?
Mike,
There is where you lied. You said 'sure' and later said that you really don't agree with my question but just said 'sure' to move the conversation along.
Now show me the “lie” part, Kathi. When sperm meets egg, a new being begins to be formed in the womb. That “thing” (a few cells merged together) is “alive” at that point. But does that “thing” have an existence of its own yet? When would you consider your unborn son to be your unborn son? The date of impregnation – when it is not even anything resembling a human being yet?Tell me Kathi, WHEN exactly does your unborn son begin to exist?
Also, tell me when a child is one year old. Is the child a year old 3 months after it is born, because it “existed” within its mother for nine months?
When someone turns 50, do they say they've been alive for 50 years and 9 months?
We have a difference of opinion about WHEN a PERSON begins to exist. In order to keep your wish for an everlasting Jesus alive, you have imagined Jesus lived within God as an EXISTING PERSON before God begot him. And you have haphazardly tried to support this with a comparison to a human child in it's mother's womb.
I DISAGREEE with you. YES, my son was a living thing inside his mother's womb, but NO, my son did not yet “exist” – because he wasn't yet my son. He could have been stillborn, and NEVER have been my son.
Do people who have had miscarriages talk about the wonderful 7 or 8 months they had with their child who died at a young age?
Do most of them have funerals for this unborn child? Or tombstones commemorating a child that never breathed his first breath of air?
We simply DISAGREE about this. And I am convinced that the ONLY reason you would even claim that a fetus “exists” as an individual BEING is to support your imagined wish.
Now, could you point out where I lied?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,00:33) You are unusually angry tonight.
Would you be happy if I called you a liar?
(The nonsensical, harassing posts from that other fellow didn't help my happy outlook on life last night either.)
Sorry for blowing up, but I didn't lie.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,00:44) I have not been shown firm proof of it being otherwise.
I haven't been shown any firm proof that Jesus is not a rainbow colored unicorn either. Should I believe that he is?We can't just imagine our own scriptural “truths”, and ask others to prove a negative, Kathi. Seriously, could you scripturally PROVE to me that Jesus does not now exist in the form of a rainbow colored unicorn?
Instead, it's better to not imagine he does exist as a unicorn UNLESS there is scriptural evidence to suggest he does. Likewise, considering the words “born”, “begotten”, “son”, “origins”, “created”, etc, there is ample evidence that Jesus was brought forth into existence at some point. To the contrary, there are no scriptural words to suggest that Jesus has existed from eternity.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2012,15:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 02 2012,00:33) You are unusually angry tonight.
Would you be happy if I called you a liar?(The nonsensical, harassing posts from that other fellow didn't help my happy outlook on life last night either.)
Sorry for blowing up, but I didn't lie.
Hi Mike,
No problem…it's cool. If you say you didn't lie, then I will take your word for it. I must have misunderstood your comment of “sure” but then “I disagree” and “I just said that to move the conversation along.” I will re-adress that to see if I understand you.Kathi
I'd feel better if you just let it go and addressed my posts. And I should have added this to the end of the last one:
Likewise, it's better not to just assume Jesus existed within his Father from eternity and then try to force the scriptures to fit around your made-up assumption.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2012,15:47) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2012,21:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2012,18:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:40) Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?
Sure.Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?
Mike,
There is where you lied. You said 'sure' and later said that you really don't agree with my question but just said 'sure' to move the conversation along.
Now show me the “lie” part, Kathi. When sperm meets egg, a new being begins to be formed in the womb. That “thing” (a few cells merged together) is “alive” at that point. But does that “thing” have an existence of its own yet? When would you consider your unborn son to be your unborn son? The date of impregnation – when it is not even anything resembling a human being yet?Tell me Kathi, WHEN exactly does your unborn son begin to exist?
Also, tell me when a child is one year old. Is the child a year old 3 months after it is born, because it “existed” within its mother for nine months?
When someone turns 50, do they say they've been alive for 50 years and 9 months?
We have a difference of opinion about WHEN a PERSON begins to exist. In order to keep your wish for an everlasting Jesus alive, you have imagined Jesus lived within God as an EXISTING PERSON before God begot him. And you have haphazardly tried to support this with a comparison to a human child in it's mother's womb.
I DISAGREEE with you. YES, my son was a living thing inside his mother's womb, but NO, my son did not yet “exist” – because he wasn't yet my son. He could have been stillborn, and NEVER have been my son.
Do people who have had miscarriages talk about the wonderful 7 or 8 months they had with their child who died at a young age?
Do most of them have funerals for this unborn child? Or tombstones commemorating a child that never breathed his first breath of air?
We simply DISAGREE about this. And I am convinced that the ONLY reason you would even claim that a fetus “exists” as an individual BEING is to support your imagined wish.
Now, could you point out where I lied?
Mike,
you said:Quote When sperm meets egg, a new being begins to be formed in the womb. That “thing” (a few cells merged together) is “alive” at that point. But does that “thing” have an existence of its own yet? When would you consider your unborn son to be your unborn son? The date of impregnation – when it is not even anything resembling a human being yet? Mike, you are right to say that a new being begins to be formed in the womb at the time of fertilization of the sperm with the egg. That new being takes on new form all through their life, just look at a picture of yourself each year of your life…people keep changing in some form or another. I just wanted to point out that what is inside of the mother is a being and has an existence, independent or not was never the point that I was making. I wanted to nail down that before the actual delivery/birth of a child, that child exists as a human being, not a feline being, nor a canine being, but a human being. From the point of conception, that 'being' is a human being albeit in his earliest stage of existence…he still is considered as existing. At fertilization the sex of the child is already determined, even eye color, hair color, etc. So, that child, at the time of fertilization has the DNA of its mother and the DNA of its father and thus has a mother and a father from that moment on. I certainly consider a person as a mother or father from the onset of the fertilization of their egg and sperm. I also consider the fertilized egg as their son or daughter…those are the only two choices. The sex of that child is already determined although is not easily determined until the fetus develops further.
Quote Also, tell me when a child is one year old. Is the child a year old 3 months after it is born, because it “existed” within its mother for nine months? The date of conception/fertilization begins the day that the child becomes living. Since the moment of conception is not obvious but the day the child is delivered is obvious we go by that date and refer to is as the 'birth'day to start counting the years since birth. It is just a way of calculating how long ago someone was 'born,' not conceived since that is only a guess, not a way of saying how long someone ultimately existed. Don't get hung up on that…it has nothing to do with their ultimate beginning of existence at conception and is not making a statement that the child did not exist until birth.
It can be estimated how long the baby has existed in the womb and is given an approximate age. When the baby has existed for about six weeks, the heart beat can be heard. When the baby is about a sixteen week old fetus the sex organs can be seen on an ultrasound machine. So, age is applied to the human fetus as an estimate and birthdates are just that, calculated from the 'birth' date.
Quote We have a difference of opinion about WHEN a PERSON begins to exist. In order to keep your wish for an everlasting Jesus alive, you have imagined Jesus lived within God as an EXISTING PERSON before God begot him. And you have haphazardly tried to support this with a comparison to a human child in it's mother's womb. You admit that life begins at fertilization and not birth. What that tells us is that the term 'begotten' son does not necessarily mean conception through delivery but can just mean the moment of delivery after the labor…a delivery from being within the parent to being outside of the parent. See that this verse proves that point:
John 16:21 “Whenever a woman is in labor she has pain, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish because of the joy that a child has been born into the world.
The bolded words are translated from this Greek word:
Strong's 1080
gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah
'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to
Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.Quote I DISAGREEE with you. YES, my son was a living thing inside his mother's womb, but NO, my son did not yet “exist” – because he wasn't yet my son. He could have been stillborn, and NEVER have been my son. Technically he was your son at the moment of conception involving YOUR sperm since his sex was determined at that point. His sex was not determined by whether he was born or not or by whether you felt like a father and that he was a son. The sex of a child and whether it is a son or daughter and being a biological father is not determined by feelings. If he had been stillborn he would still be your son because he was fertilized with your sperm and he was male from that point, he would just not be a son that was born alive.
My pastor and his wife gave birth to their stillborn daughter and they had a funeral for her, named her, and look forward to knowing her in heaven someday.
Quote We simply DISAGREE about this.
Then let's see if the Bible agrees that someone is a mother or father even before the actual birth, ok.Luke 1:43
43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.Mary was called a mother by Elizabeth when she was newly pregnant.
So, your disagreement is with scripture and not just with me.
Quote And I am convinced that the ONLY reason you would even claim that a fetus “exists” as an individual BEING is to support your imagined wish. Actually, my wish is to help you understand the truth so that you can realize that the word 'begotten' doesn't mean brought to life but truly already was alive before being begotten.
In that way, no one can say that He had a beginning based on the verses that say He was born, begotten, firstborn, etc.
Kathi
Kathi,
When someone turns 50, do they say they've lived for 50 years and 9 months?
And do people, AS A GENERAL RULE, have funerals for their stillborn babies and speak of the great EXISTENCE that child enjoyed?
In your zeal to make the scripture teach your unscriptural doctrine, you have started claiming crazy things – much like KJ does.
If Jesus was born at all, then there was a time when he was not…………end of story.
Mike, you tell other people that they wrote “Novels” yet happily read these Novels.
GOD IS NOT A MAN.
“Although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2012,16:30) Kathi, When someone turns 50, do they say they've lived for 50 years and 9 months?
And do people, AS A GENERAL RULE, have funerals for their stillborn babies and speak of the great EXISTENCE that child enjoyed?
In your zeal to make the scripture teach your unscriptural doctrine, you have started claiming crazy things – much like KJ does.
If Jesus was born at all, then there was a time when he was not…………end of story.
Mike,
I explained that above regarding that people go by the birthdate and that is why it is called a birthday.Quote And do people, AS A GENERAL RULE, have funerals for their stillborn babies and speak of the great EXISTENCE that child enjoyed? If it is important to you then do some research on it. I can't answer what the general rule is but I found this info pretty easily:
Bereavement counselors at the hospital can advise about legal responsibilities in the event of a stillbirth. If your baby was born after 24 weeks, the body must be buried or cremated, and the baby's stillbirth must be registered. A funeral, religious or otherwise, can be a source of comfort and support, and a means of acknowledging the importance and sadness of the loss.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health….h.shtml
The stillborn baby finds rest according to scripture, God knows these stillborn babies:
Ecclesiastes 6:3-5 ESV / 5 helpful votes
If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, but his soul is not satisfied with life's good things, and he also has no burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. For it comes in vanity and goes in darkness, and in darkness its name is covered. Moreover, it has not seen the sun or known anything, yet it finds rest rather than he.
Another quote:
If your baby was stillborn before 24 weeks, you can still arrange a funeral. If this is the decision you make, much of the information within this “Funerals” section will be relevant to you.Go ahead and read this site to see the quote and more info about the dignity that a stillborn receives.
http://www.uk-sands.org/support/when/funerals.htmlI think that is enough to show you that people really do feel like that stillborn is a real person and is treated with the dignity of such. Not that those actions of a funeral or not makes the stillborn a human being. Conception made the stillborn a human being.
You asked if people speak of the great existence that child enjoyed. Why would they do that and what difference would that make as to when that child began living. You have already said that life begins at conception.
Quote If Jesus was born at all, then there was a time when he was not…………end of story. He was not a man when He was begotten before the ages. You speak of Him as if He was a man at that point. He was not.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 05 2012,17:58) He was not a man when He was begotten before the ages. You speak of Him as if He was a man at that point. He was not. Kathi
The word is “yalad”, and refers to the bringing forth of someone into existence. The word in Proverbs is “created”, and we know that since the OTHER angels of God were created, there was a time they didn't exist.Kathi, go back to my “unicorn” post and really think about it. You can't just IMAGINE something and then try to force the scriptures to tell your tale.
If something at all was said about Jesus existing from eternity, then you'd have something. But instead, there are many things said about his origins. But because you WANT your IMAGINED scenario to be the true one, despite the fact that no scripture offers such a scenario, you blindly overlook all the MANY scriptures that say “son”, “created”, “brought forth”, “begotten”, “firstborn of all creation”, “beginning of GOD'S creation”, “given birth”, and “origins”.
This discussion has run its course, Kathi. My understanding aligns with all those quoted words above. Your understanding aligns with your imagination, and ignores or twists all those quoted words above.
Believe what you want. Just know that there are no scriptures supporting that belief, and many that refute it.
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