Who is the creator of all things?

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
If you don't know what love Paul is talking about and you don't know what kind of being that God is, just say so and stop with these games.

Get to know what an only begotten son is Pierre…it is the foundational truth that the church is built on.
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,17:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2012,11:37) Proverbs 8 shows us that 'wisdom' existed BEFORE God's works of old. Actually Kathi, Proverbs 8 says that wisdom was the FIRST thing God created.  End of story.  Believe what you want, I will believe the scriptures.  And I will also believe common sense that says a father ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, exists BEFORE his son does.

Mike,
You have not shown me any other scripture that says that wisdom was created and did not exist at one time and this particular one is not 'created' in most translations. You stand on shaky ground.

Does a mother exist before the eggs in her ovary that contain half of the chromosomes for her children? Hint, they existed within her before the mother's birth.

Would the creator be less than the creation?

Quote

And I will also believe common sense that says a father ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, exists BEFORE his son does.

Does common sense tell you that the father needs a female partner also to have a son? Yet you don't believe the Heavenly Father needed a female partner…so you pick from your common sense and choose how the Father must be to fit your dilemma?? Common sense should tell you that every son existed within the parent before he was born but you dismiss this.

Let the Spirit enlighten your 'common sense' so that you can know what an only begotten Son of GOD would be and is so that you can proclaim your belief in truth. Do not lean on your own understanding, Mike.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2012,21:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 27 2012,17:41) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2012,11:37) Proverbs 8 shows us that 'wisdom' existed BEFORE God's works of old. Actually Kathi, Proverbs 8 says that wisdom was the FIRST thing God created.  End of story.  Believe what you want, I will believe the scriptures.  And I will also believe common sense that says a father ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, exists BEFORE his son does. Mike, You have not shown me any other scripture that says that wisdom was created………….

Yeah, I showed you one from Job a few pages back.

Kathi, not only was wisdom created in Proverbs 8, but it was also given birth. It was also there when GOD created all things.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Would you mind showing me the verse in Job that says wisdom was created?
Can you admit that most translations do not use the word 'created' in Prov 8:22 and that it is grammatically possible to use 'possessed' or 'establish?'

Thanks and have a good Saturday,
Kathi

[mikeboll64]

The Job verse is in the 8th post on page 19.  The word is “established”, which you can see from my post is a synonym of “create”.

And yes, most translations use “possessed” because they didn't know about the “create” root of the Hebrew word, although they suspected there must be one based on other scriptures.  They also use “possessed” because they don't like the idea of God “creating” wisdom – as if He wasn't already wise.

We've been through this Kathi.  Forget “possessed” for a minute and focus on the fact that wisdom was “given birth”.  To YOU, that means it existed before, but to all sensible people, it means it didn't exist UNTIL it was given birth.

Kathi, “given birth”, “created”, “the first of God's works”………….come on, how stubborn will you be?  

I don't want to go through all this over and over and over again, Kathi.  

Think what you will, but I've got better things to do than to try to make a horse drink.  I lead you to the water, and that's the best I can do.

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,21:17)

Pierre, If you don't know what love Paul is talking about and you don't know what kind of being that God is, just say so and stop with these games. Get to know what an only begotten son is Pierre…it is the foundational truth that the church is built on. Kathi

Kathi

if I would follow you I be kissing the pope feet

sorry scriptures first ;your believe is not in scriptures

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Why would you say that…protestants don't look to the pope or kiss his feet?

What part of my belief is not in scriptures? Back up your words Pierre. I say the Jesus is the Son of God for real. Do you not find that in scriptures? Maybe you should find a better translation.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,15:28)

Pierre, Why would you say that…protestants don't look to the pope or kiss his feet? What part of my belief is not in scriptures?  Back up your words Pierre. I say the Jesus is the Son of God for real. Do you not find that in scriptures? Maybe you should find a better translation. Kathi

Kathi

Quote

Mike, The Apostle's Creed, yes, the Nicene Creed, yes, the Athanasian Creed, I would change some wording regarding there being a third person and the damnation of all who don't believe that creed word for word. God bless, Kathi Edited by Lightenup on Nov. 05 2011,16:18

and wen was Christ Begotten or came to be begotten ,

I will get back with the creed lather

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
You do not believe that the Son was begotten before the ages? Wisdom was begotten then in Prov 8. When do you think the Son was begotten?

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2012,11:10)

The Job verse is in the 8th post on page 19.  The word is “established”, which you can see from my post is a synonym of “create”. And yes, most translations use “possessed” because they didn't know about the “create” root of the Hebrew word, although they suspected there must be one based on other scriptures.  They also use “possessed” because they don't like the idea of God “creating” wisdom – as if He wasn't already wise. We've been through this Kathi.  Forget “possessed” for a minute and focus on the fact that wisdom was “given birth”.  To YOU, that means it existed before, but to all sensible people, it means it didn't exist UNTIL it was given birth. Kathi, “given birth”, “created”, “the first of God's works”………….come on, how stubborn will you be?   I don't want to go through all this over and over and over again, Kathi.   Think what you will, but I've got better things to do than to try to make a horse drink.  I lead you to the water, and that's the best I can do. peace, mike

Mike,
Did your son exist the day before he was born? Yes or No?
Who was in your girlfriend's womb the day before your son was born?

Can you just answer those two questions?

Thanks,
Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,22:48)

Mike, Did your son exist the day before he was born? Yes or No?

It depends on your definition of “exist”, Kathi.  At that time, my son was totally dependent on another being; and not just dependent, but actually physically hooked to that other being though an umbilical cord.  He was not an individual being yet, but yes, “he” did exist.

Kathi, before your sons and daughters “existed” within your body, was there a time when they DIDN'T exist?  YES or NO?

And this is my point.  You can say Jesus “existed” as an individual being within a different individual being if you want.

But the fact is:  Any son who was ever brought forth in any way was also subject to a time when he didn't exist.

Kathi, do you remember the default meaning of “firstborn”?  Well, the above is the default concerning this discussion.

Jesus is only an exception to this default understanding in your own wishes, as there is no scripture that spells out that the default wouldn't also apply in the case of Jesus.  

peace,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
you said:

Quote

It depends on your definition of “exist”, Kathi. At that time, my son was totally dependent on another being; and not just dependent, but actually physically hooked to that other being though an umbilical cord. He was not an individual being yet, but yes, “he” did exist.

So, one being was totally dependent on another being…hmmm. They are still a being and your son, years past the womb, is still dependent on another being, is he not? Children from birth on are still dependent on other beings. But thanks for admitting that your son 'WAS' before he was born. He had life, his own body, his own brain, his own arms which he had control of as well as his own feet. He controlled whether he would suck his thumb or not and kicked and turned. He was definitely a viable person albeit yet born. That is my point Mike. All persons on the face of the planet existed as a viable person before their birth. Why are you having such a hard time with this fact?

Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,22:43)

Pierre, You do not believe that the Son was begotten before the ages? Wisdom was begotten then in Prov 8. When do you think the Son was begotten? Kathi

Kathi

so do you now agree that in Proverb it talks about the son of God from verses 22 to 31 in chap;8 ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,17:40)

Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?

Sure.

Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2012,23:48)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2012,11:10) The Job verse is in the 8th post on page 19.  The word is “established”, which you can see from my post is a synonym of “create”. And yes, most translations use “possessed” because they didn't know about the “create” root of the Hebrew word, although they suspected there must be one based on other scriptures.  They also use “possessed” because they don't like the idea of God “creating” wisdom – as if He wasn't already wise. We've been through this Kathi.  Forget “possessed” for a minute and focus on the fact that wisdom was “given birth”.  To YOU, that means it existed before, but to all sensible people, it means it didn't exist UNTIL it was given birth. Kathi, “given birth”, “created”, “the first of God's works”………….come on, how stubborn will you be?   I don't want to go through all this over and over and over again, Kathi.   Think what you will, but I've got better things to do than to try to make a horse drink.  I lead you to the water, and that's the best I can do. peace, mike Mike, Did your son exist the day before he was born? Yes or No? Who was in your girlfriend's womb the day before your son was born? Can you just answer those two questions? Thanks, Kathi

Mike,
See the quoted post where you say:

Quote

We've been through this Kathi.  Forget “possessed” for a minute and focus on the fact that wisdom was “given birth”.  To YOU, that means it existed before, but to all sensible people, it means it didn't exist UNTIL it was given birth.

Please see that in the post above this that you answered this question from me with 'sure.':

Quote

Can you admit that your son was alive the day before he was born?

You did admit that finally, good for you! Now can you admit that you were wrong in your previous understanding when you said this:

Quote

To YOU, that means it existed before, but to all sensible people, it means it didn't exist UNTIL it was given birth.

Now you ask me:

Quote

Can YOU admit that there was a time when your sons and daughters DIDN'T exist?

Sure, and I have never said otherwise. However, you seem to think that should apply to God's Son also and you force the finite laws of nature onto the infinite SUPERNATURAL Father and His Son. You can't insist on comparing apples to oranges.
God is not bound by the limits of nature, is He.

When we are told that He is the only begotten Son of GOD, that is enough to tell you that He is not bound by any default understanding of the human son.

So, Mike answer this question:
Is God bound by the laws of nature in how He could have an only begotten Son?

Thanks,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 29 2012,21:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,22:43) Pierre, You do not believe that the Son was begotten before the ages? Wisdom was begotten then in Prov 8. When do you think the Son was begotten? Kathi Kathi so do you now agree that in Proverb it talks about the son of God from verses 22 to 31 in chap;8  ? Pierre

Pierre,
I have always said on here that I thought Prov 8 has to do with the Son's wisdom which was from within the Father and was brought out of the Father by being in His offspring that was born from Him.

Now, when do you think that the Son was begotten? Please answer this.

Thanks,
Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 31 2012,23:19)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 29 2012,21:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 29 2012,22:43) Pierre, You do not believe that the Son was begotten before the ages? Wisdom was begotten then in Prov 8. When do you think the Son was begotten? Kathi Kathi so do you now agree that in Proverb it talks about the son of God from verses 22 to 31 in chap;8  ? Pierre Pierre, I have always said on here that I thought Prov 8 has to do with the Son's wisdom which was from within the Father and was brought out of the Father by being in His offspring that was born from Him. Now, when do you think that the Son was begotten? Please answer this. Thanks, Kathi

Kathi

Quote

Pierre, I have always said on here that I thought Prov 8 has to do with the Son's wisdom which was from within the Father and was brought out of the Father by being in His offspring that was born from Him.

so God the father did not created his son in one piece but in a multiple pieces and then assemble them to become his son ?

this is strange ?no in scriptures not even in Proverbs 8

[Lightenup]

No Pierre, wisdom wasn't separate from the Son as if it were just a piece of Him, it is just what is being emphasized about the Son.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 30 2012,22:24)

However, you seem to think that should apply to God's Son also…………..

First of all, I said “sure” to move this discussion along.  A child can be aborted at any time before he is born – would YOU say that aborted child had once “existed” as a part of human kind?  Would there be any records of his “existence” on this planet?  

So again, I don't agree with you, but said what I said in the effort of moving forward with the discussion.

And it is only your wishes that make you insist that something pertaining to EVERY son who ever existed doesn't pertain to Jesus.  And you wish this DESPITE much scriptural evidence to the contrary.  Jesus is said to be “born”, “created”, “have an origin”, be a “firstborn son”, be “brought forth”, etc.  And you must ignore or try to change each and every instance of these teachings………………with NOTHING in the scriptures to support this attitude.  

Kathi, let's get this discussion back on topic:

Revelation 3:14
 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
  These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Kathi, these are the words of Jesus himself above.  Who does Jesus credit with creation?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 01 2012,11:36)

No Pierre, wisdom wasn't separate from the Son as if it were just a piece of Him, it is just what is being emphasized about the Son. Kathi

Kathi

Quote

wisdom wasn't separate from the Son as if it were just a piece of Him, it is just what is being emphasized about the Son. Kathi

the way I see it Proverb 8 start to make the reader understand that what was created was done with grade wisdom ,and on verse 22 it start to show how God used his wisdom to bring forth his first creation ,HIS SON ,THE WORD,right name for the spoken person or being placed as the mid, what would be used to create all other things,his only begotten son ;reveled to us by John to whom Jesus made it known,

Pierre

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