Who is the creator of all things?

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,21:56)

Mike, when was the beginning of the LORD's way? Hint, the LORD always existed.

The word is understood as “works”………..see NETNotes about it.

And since Jehovah always existed, the “beginning of His works” would be the first work He ever performed. And that is what I've been telling you all along: Jesus is the first work of creation that the Father ever performed.

January 21, 2012 at 9:01 pm#273719

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,21:56)

Note, I am not arguing that Jesus was alone as the creator, so no doubt that you can find passages that speak of another besides Jesus as the creator. So what?

That's NOT what I've found, though. What I've shown you are scriptures where ONE is credited as creating ALL things, and Jesus is listed as someone OTHER THAN that ONE.

Kathi, just consider Proverbs 8: Jesus was created as the FIRST of God's works, right? (Because we've already established that “possessed” won't fulfill your wish anyway, since it STILL shows God alone until the point He decided to “possess” Jesus as the FIRST OF HIS WORKS. Nor does “possess” align with the parallel phrases such as “given birth”. The root suggests “create”, and NETNotes implies that had the other translations known about that root at the time of translation, they too would have rendered it as “create”.)

And we know that Jesus was there when HIS GOD created the heavens and the earth.

What more do you really need? I'm growing bored of this discussion because you are acting like Gene now. I'm showing you the scriptures, and it's like you're saying “So what? I'm STILL going to believe against those scriptures anyway!”

That's your choice, but why should I waste my time on you then?

January 21, 2012 at 9:04 pm#273720

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:49)

Pierre,
I believe that when Jesus is said to be the only begotten Son of God, I take that as literal and I believe that He existed eternally within the Father and just before creation, was begotten from the Father, together with their Holy Spirit and united in their perfect nature, they are the one God authority to us. Both are referred to as Jehovah and both are members of the unity called Jehovah. Also, see my signature.

Basically, when I say that Jesus is the Son of God, I mean it…literally, that He is the only offspring of God the Father and also inherently God natured as is the Father.

I hope that helps answer your question.
Kathi

Kathi

thank you for your answer ;but sorry to me it is as clear as mud,

this is do because of the many scriptures that comes to my mind wen I read your comment;

If Christ is the son that is in the father how is he in the father ??
If they share the holy spirit then to who belong the holy spirit ??
perfection does not exist in the absolute,because it is the only thing that his,right ??

you say that THEY ARE THE ONE GOD” this sounds like binary ??

so to declare the above true to scriptures we will have to rewrite most of Gods word so that it would fit???

do you think this is so important that we should do that ,so that your truth can be understand as truth

Pierre

January 21, 2012 at 9:22 pm#273724

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2012,10:13)

Here you go Mike, this should end this bit of “first created” false doctrine that you cling to in regards to Col 1:15.

Indeed, the Watchtower Society is adding to the scriptures to support its doctrine and teaching that Jesus was created. That is not what Colossians is stating.

Oh, you mean like these scriptures, where every translation adds “other” or “who were with him” to keep if from sounding like these kings weren't ALSO kings of the earth?

1 Kings 10:23
King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth.

2 Kings 25:28
He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

2 Chronicles 9:22
King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth.

Jeremiah 52:32
He spoke kindly to him and gave him a seat of honor higher than those of the other kings who were with him in Babylon.

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2012,10:13)

That is not what Colossians is stating. Jesus is the pre-eminent one of all things.

Really? Then where does that leave Jesus' own God in the hierarchy of things? You've already acknowledged that the Father is, was, and will always be greater than His Son, right?

And although you avoided my question, I assume that you now realize that only the HIGHEST One is “God Almighty” and “God MOST HIGH”.

So, doesn't it seem strange to you that the LESSOR of your two Gods is the one who is PREEMINENT over the creation of his own God? (Rev 3:12-14)

Wouldn't the GREATER of the two Gods be the One who is PREEMINENT over His OWN creation?

January 22, 2012 at 8:19 pm#273864

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,15:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:49)

Basically, when I say that Jesus is the Son of God, I mean it…literally, that He is the only offspring of God the Father and also inherently God natured as is the Father.

I hope that helps answer your question.
Kathi

Kathi

thank you for your answer ;but sorry to me it is as clear as mud,

this is do because of the many scriptures that comes to my mind wen I read your comment;

you say that THEY ARE THE ONE GOD” this sounds like binary ??

so to declare the above true to scriptures we will have to rewrite most of Gods word so that it would fit???

do you think this is so important that we should do that ,so that your truth can be understand as truth

Pierre

Pierre,
you asked:

Quote

If Christ is the son that is in the father how is he in the father ??

As a Son.

Quote

If they share the holy spirit then to who belong the holy spirit ??

Both of them.

Quote

perfection does not exist in the absolute,because it is the only thing that his,right ??

What does that mean?

Kathi

January 22, 2012 at 8:25 pm#273866

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,14:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,21:05)

The firstborn would not be part of the flock if their parents were not also a part of the flock first. That is what you are missing, Mike. If Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, then His Father would be a member of the created group.

And in the case of every other firstborn, their fathers were also at one point brought forth into existence, right? So this is one of the “exceptions for Jesus” that actually applies, as Jesus is the only firstborn whose Father was not also brought forth into existence.

And that makes your point moot. Kathi, your claim all along is that the “of creation” part would mean “creatures” are the father of Jesus. Are you satisfied now that phrases like “of the flock”, “of the herd”, “of the Egyptians”, and “of creation” simply lists the firstborn as a PART OF THAT GROUP? And if you're not, I don't really care – because what I've just posted is the UNDENIABLE truth of the matter.

And now that I've spent way too many hours of my life trying to get you to see this very SIMPLE principle, the next time you claim your nonsense that “firstborn of creation” must mean “creatures” are the father of Jesus, you'll at least know what the rest of us do…………..that you're speaking nonsense.

Mike
I'm not the one saying that creatures are the father of Jesus, you are when you tell me that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation instead of being the firstborn OF the Father. He can't be OF both creation and OF the Father. So tell me Mike, which was He born of? Creation or the Father?

Btw, you are not answering the questions that I am asking you and I will have to bring them up. Maybe that is what is adding to all your precious time that you are taking. If you would just answer my questions then we might get somewhere.

So, please answer the questions that are bolded.

Kathi

January 23, 2012 at 4:28 am#273929

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:25)

Kathi,

Bobo the sheep was the firstborn son of Puffy the sheep.

Now, can Bobo be included in the “firstborn of the flock” that were to be sacrificed, even though Puffy was his father, and not “the flock”? YES or NO?

And to answer your question, Bobo was actually brought forth by Puffy, but he is still a member of “the flock”. Just like Jesus, who was actually brought forth by God, is still a member of “creation”.

January 23, 2012 at 6:19 am#273934

Participant

So Mike,
He was brought forth by God HOW, created as a creature or born as an offspring?

Can you please answer this question?

Kathi

January 23, 2012 at 7:04 am#273940

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2012,13:19)

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 21 2012,15:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,13:49)

Basically, when I say that Jesus is the Son of God, I mean it…literally, that He is the only offspring of God the Father and also inherently God natured as is the Father.

I hope that helps answer your question.
Kathi

Kathi

thank you for your answer ;but sorry to me it is as clear as mud,

this is do because of the many scriptures that comes to my mind wen I read your comment;

you say that THEY ARE THE ONE GOD” this sounds like binary ??

so to declare the above true to scriptures we will have to rewrite most of Gods word so that it would fit???

do you think this is so important that we should do that ,so that your truth can be understand as truth

Pierre

Pierre,
you asked:

Quote

If Christ is the son that is in the father how is he in the father ??

As a Son.

Quote

If they share the holy spirit then to who belong the holy spirit ??

Both of them.

Quote

perfection does not exist in the absolute,because it is the only thing that his,right ??

What does that mean?

Kathi

Gods law is perfect ,why?? it is the only law that would work for all of his creation ,because he made it that way,

just like the car manufactry make the specs and the hand book ,he made them as he build it ,so that it works as one.

this is why it does not matter what men do ,unless they do what he told them they will not succeed ,God create he knows what works and what does not.

and Christ his the son totally apart of his father ,and God is apart of all his creation the reason that it is like that ;is that God could destroyed all his creation ,just like at the flood ,and with Moses wen he wanted to destroy Israel for what they had done.

as for being one well you are wrong they are only one in there comon will Christ did not do like Satan he loved his father Satan did not ,the fact that Christ had accepted to die for US show until what point Christ was ready to prove his love for his father ,

I am wandering if you would have such a faith in your God

Pierre

January 23, 2012 at 8:46 am#273944

Participant

Pierre,
you said:

Quote

They are one in many ways, you ought to allow God to teach you about His Son.

Here are just some of the ways they are one:
Same nature:
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature

Same work
John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Same wisdom, same power
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Also, united : in love, in grace, in truth, as creator, as savior, as Father to Son, etc.

Kathi

January 23, 2012 at 8:54 am#273945

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,14:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,21:56)

Mike, when was the beginning of the LORD's way? Hint, the LORD always existed.

The word is understood as “works”………..see NETNotes about it.

Mike,
Begetting the Son may have been considered a work, the first 'work' but that was not a creating out of nothing type of work. You assume that it was a work of a creator and forget that it was the begettal work of a Father. It is the creator that brings forth a creature of creation. It is a Father that brings forth an offspring. Please learn the difference. It will take much less of your time to just let God show you this. The great amount of time you take with this is because you keep beating your head against your own error and I have to keep trying to help you.

Kathi

January 23, 2012 at 8:47 pm#273991

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,01:46)

Pierre,
you said:

Quote

They are one in many ways, you ought to allow God to teach you about His Son.

Here are just some of the ways they are one:
Same nature:
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature

Same wisdom, same power
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Also, united : in love, in grace, in truth, as creator, as savior, as Father to Son, etc.

Kathi

Quote

Same nature:
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature

you do not understand the nature of God and even less the nature of Christ that should reflect his father nature,

the father nature is LOVE and this is reflected in all what Christ did ,show LOVE to all ,

BUT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD LOVE IS THAT I CAN SEE.

Quote

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

IF YOU UNDERSTAND PROV;8-29-31

THEN YOU KNOW WHY HE SAYS THAT IN JOHN 5-19

Quote

Also, united : in love, in grace, in truth, as creator, as savior, as Father to Son, etc.

Kathi;YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GOD OR HIS SON AND NEITHER THEIR ONENESS THE TRUTH OF GOD,NEVER MIND THE WHY HE CREATE AND SO LOST THE GRACE GIVEN THROUGH THE SON.

Pierre

January 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm#274003

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:19)

So Mike,
He was brought forth by God HOW, created as a creature or born as an offspring?

Can you please answer this question?

Kathi

Scripture says Jesus was “begotten”, “born” and “created”.

John 1
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Are you saying that when God begets some of us, we will then have lived from eternity? Will we then have the very nature of God and also be God Almighty?

January 23, 2012 at 10:50 pm#274007

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2012,01:54)

Mike,
Begetting the Son may have been considered a work, the first 'work' but that was not a creating out of nothing type of work.

ALL THINGS in heaven and earth came “out from” the Father, Kathi. Jesus is no exception, as even you admit.

I don't know where you get your “created from nothing” argument. Even if God just WILLED empty space to become something, the WILL that caused “nothing” to become “something” came out from God.

Kathi, re-read what you wrote to me. If “possessing” or “creating” Jesus was the first WORK of God, then Jesus wasn't “possessed” or “created” UNTIL God did that work.

Face it, Kathi. Jesus had a beginning, just like Micah 5:2 teaches us.

January 24, 2012 at 10:55 pm#274137

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 21 2012,14:54)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 20 2012,21:56)

Mike, when was the beginning of the LORD's way? Hint, the LORD always existed.

The word is understood as “works”………..see NETNotes about it.

Mike,
The NET Bible translated it as 'works' but the note regarding the word in the NET notes is this:

tn Heb “his way” (so KJV, NASB). The word “way” is an idiom (implied comparison) for the actions of God.

sn The claim of wisdom in this passage is that she was foundational to all that God would do.

The begettal is an action that is not a created act here, the 'possessing of' is an action that is not a created act here.

Also, the word 'as' His first work and 'at' the beginning of His work are two different things. Read these translations and see how they do not say 'possessed me AS…' but 'possessed me AT…”

Proverbs 8:22

NET© 8:22 The Lord created 1 me as the beginning 2 of his works, 3 before his deeds of long ago.
NIV© 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
NASB© 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
ESV© 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
NLT© 8:22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.
MSG© 8:22 “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else.
BBE© 8:22 The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.
NKJV© 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.
NRSV© 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.
KJV© 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

So, there is NO translation that says that the LORD possessed me AS…

There are translations that say 'possessed me AT' or 'possessed me IN' but none that say possessed me AS…none. The word is 'as' when coupled with 'created' or 'brought forth' but not with 'possessed.'

Therefore, my understanding is not challenged by this verse.

Also, if the word were 'created' and wisdom was 'created' as the first of His works BEFORE His works of old, then He would not be a part of what is 'His works of old' and thus not be a part of creation if creation is what is implied by 'His works of old.'

The NET translators say, basically, that “Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation,…”

You want to make the 'idea' that wisdom did not exist at one time and that it is part of creation but that is not the emphasis according to the NET translators.

My understanding that the Son who was brought forth as an offspring was possessed by God within Him before He was brought forth as an offspring. If the word is indeed 'created' it is not intended to mean that wisdom is a part of creation like you insist because it is said to be BEFORE creation. And furthermore, if the word is 'created' and it refers to an offspring, then we cannot assume that it means the same as what happened to bring something forth which did not exist beforehand otherwise Eve would be a creator equal to how God was a creator.

Nevertheless, I do not agree that the term is 'created' but 'possessed' and that is how it is translated more times than when it is translated as 'created.' The NET notes say there are two verbs with the same spelling and that earlier translators did not know this, that does not mean that the second meaning is the right one, just that it ought to be considered. They felt the second meaning of 'created' fit better because of it being in the context of 'appointed' and 'given birth.' They forget that in order to be given birth, one has to be possessed within that parent beforehand. Given birth does not equate to given ultimate existence, birth merely gives an existence outside of the parent of that which already existed within.

Again, the idea the NET translators were intending to convey is that “wisdom existed before creation,…” and “The claim of wisdom in this passage is that she was foundational to all that God would do.” If wisdom existed BEFORE creation, then it is not a part of creation, Mike.

Kathi

January 24, 2012 at 11:01 pm#274138

Participant

Kathi

Quote

so in your opinion God was not a God with wisdom,of his own ?

January 24, 2012 at 11:07 pm#274139

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 23 2012,14:47)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2012,01:46)

Pierre,
you said:

Quote

They are one in many ways, you ought to allow God to teach you about His Son.

Here are just some of the ways they are one:
Same nature:
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature

Same wisdom, same power
But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Also, united : in love, in grace, in truth, as creator, as savior, as Father to Son, etc.

Kathi

Quote

Same nature:
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature

you do not understand the nature of God and even less the nature of Christ that should reflect his father nature,

the father nature is LOVE and this is reflected in all what Christ did ,show LOVE to all ,

BUT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD LOVE IS THAT I CAN SEE.

Quote

IF YOU UNDERSTAND PROV;8-29-31

THEN YOU KNOW WHY HE SAYS THAT IN JOHN 5-19

Quote

Also, united : in love, in grace, in truth, as creator, as savior, as Father to Son, etc.

Kathi;YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GOD OR HIS SON AND NEITHER THEIR ONENESS THE TRUTH OF GOD,NEVER MIND THE WHY HE CREATE AND SO LOST THE GRACE GIVEN THROUGH THE SON.

Pierre

Pierre,
I don't believe that you understand what an only begotten Son is and that is why you can't understand what I am telling you.

You say that Jesus is the son of God but you do not understand what claiming that He is an 'only begotten Son' would mean. And when shown, you deny it. So, don't pretend to believe in the only begotten Son and at the same time deny what an only begotten Son is.

Anyone can say the words but not everyone has the faith to believe the words.

It seems that when you say that 'He is the only begotten Son of God,' you mean that 'he is the first created creature of God'…is that correct? How would that make Him an ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, Pierre? As far as creature type sons, there are many, not just one. Remember that I showed you that the Greek word for 'firstborn' is not equivalent to 'first-created?' Yet you still insist that they are equal words. You have been show truth but you insist to remain in ignorance. Think about it, Pierre. This is God's word that we are talking about.

Kathi

January 24, 2012 at 11:09 pm#274140

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 24 2012,17:01)

Kathi

Quote

so in your opinion God was not a God with wisdom,of his own ?

Pierre,
I believe that the wisdom of God is found in two persons and that is the thrust of the passage. One of the persons with the wisdom of God begat the other person with the wisdom of God.

Kathi

January 24, 2012 at 11:13 pm#274141

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2012,16:44)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 22 2012,23:19)

So Mike,
He was brought forth by God HOW, created as a creature or born as an offspring?

Can you please answer this question?

Kathi

Scripture says Jesus was “begotten”, “born” and “created”.

Are you saying that when God begets some of us, we will then have lived from eternity? Will we then have the very nature of God and also be God Almighty?

Mike,
Scripture does not say that Jesus was created. It says He was born.

When believers are born of God, it is a 'rebirth' which is different than a initial birth. The only one that received their initial birth from God is His Only Begotten Son, who we often call Jesus in the NT.

Kathi

January 24, 2012 at 11:22 pm#274142