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Quote (seek and you will find @ May 31 2008,21:34) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2008,18:23) Nick
OK, but I still think we are straying off topic a bit.
Mandy! You understand so much, but I don't get why you don't take Col. 1:15-18 and Rev. 3:14 the way it is written? Also look up the meaning of preeminence. First in all. Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead. Now He does sit at the right hand of the Father the most High God, God Almighty, the highest position next to the Father. But the Father always being above all.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Nick and I were talking about the nature of Jesus and his unique sonship. The conversation weakened and moved into other areas when Nick felt a bit uncomfortable. It's happened before. He likes to tweak the conversation away from some pretty obvious points. It's his MO, in my opinion.
As for the “firstborn” passages. I have explained my interpretation before. I do not believe they are to be interpreted that Jesus was “created/begotten” first and then Jesus created everything after that. I believe that the collection of scriptures do not point to this. However it certainly is a literal interpretation that you can lean towards. But as I have shared with you before, there are other ways to view these scriptures (and I have shared with you my view).
Thanks,
MandyHi Nick,
All these verses talk about Jesus after his birth on this earth not as you are imagining.
AdamHi GM,
So how did God bring Jesus into the world after he was born?
Heb1
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Come on Nick,
You are not understanding scriptures in the light of God's Spirit. Heb 1:6 talks about future when Jesus comes back with his father's glory to this earth not his first coming. You think that you only know the scriptures well, you are wrong, open your eyes to the world. Things are different than yours.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 01 2008,01:30) Hi seek,
When was Jesus first born? if so what form, an angel or some spirit? Was he created? as you have quoted Col 1:15-18 and Rev 3:14, you mean Jesus was pre-existing in some form as I have questioned above.
Philippians 2:6 (New International Version)
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,So he existed with God's nature or God's form. God is a spirit, so that might be your answer.
He is also called the Morning Star and we know that the morning stars were present at the creation of earth.
Job 38:4-7 (New International Version)
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?John 1:2-4
2 He was with God in the beginning.3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
So he was the logos. What form is the logos that was with God?
Whether we understand these scriptures or not, the fact remains that these scriptures exist and it is up to us to believe.
The rock that followed the Israelites in the desert was Christ according to Paul.
Was he the Angel/Messenger of YHWH? If so, then he existed in bodily form.
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,Colossians 1:14-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.So again he is the visible representation of the invisible God. He is a being in bodily form. When we see him, we see the Father because the son is like the Father. Jesus only does what he sees his Father doing.
So where does that lead us to. It leads us to a being with divine nature who is of God and looks like God. He is God's glory and he is the head of all except God.
The head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.
Now notice the sequence:
God > Christ > Man > Woman
Notice how the woman came from the man and Christ came from God? So did the man come from Christ. Was man and all creation made through him? If so, then we have a time sequence too.
In other words, we know that God is first and that man was before the woman. So that leaves Christ. Was he before man? Is he older than Abraham?
Jesus said “before Abraham, I am”.
Hi T8,
Whatever verses you just quoted talk about Jesus' present position rather after his birth and now in glory with the One God the Father. Why do you see only these verses for proving your pre-existence? why not other verses like 1 Pet 1:20, Eph 1:4-5, Jer 1:5 which talk about pre-existence in the plan of God for any believer including Jesus?
If you read quote by WJ on God you will understand clearly that other than One God no one else was there in the beginning. See the explanation of Gene on Col 1:12-18 where it talked about Father who created this universe not Jesus.
Regarding your repeated quoting of phrase 'before Abraham, I am' I have already explained that it is Jesus's pre-eminence not his pre-existence as some being.
Please see Jesus in totallity not in fragments by quoting only these verses.
Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 01 2008,23:34) Hi T8,
Whatever verses you just quoted talk about Jesus' present position rather after his birth and now in glory with the One God the Father. Why do you see only these verses for proving your pre-existence? why not other verses like 1 Pet 1:20, Eph 1:4-5, Jer 1:5 which talk about pre-existence in the plan of God for any believer including Jesus?
If you read quote by WJ on God you will understand clearly that other than One God no one else was there in the beginning. See the explanation of Gene on Col 1:12-18 where it talked about Father who created this universe not Jesus.
Regarding your repeated quoting of phrase 'before Abraham, I am' I have already explained that it is Jesus's pre-eminence not his pre-existence as some being.
Please see Jesus in totallity not in fragments by quoting only these verses.
Peace to you
Adam
Very good Adam,
But you can talk untill youo are blue in the face.
Once people have latched on to one dogma, it is nearly impossible to get them to see anything in a different light.
Defending the dogma is more important than looking at something with an open mind.I am describing all of us, not just T8.
It is much more than being stubborn.
It is a disease of the human mind much like bolimia.
Even when the bolimic person is stick thin, and you tell them that they are stick thin, they will still see themselves as fat no matter what you say.Tim
Quote (t8 @ June 01 2008,23:16) Whether we understand these scriptures or not, the fact remains that these scriptures exist and it is up to us to believe.
Scriptures also state that Jesus had his beginning at birth.It is up to us to believe.
Adam……….It's like this there is them who understand and them who don't, if the vail remains over their mind no one can remove it only God himself can. That why Jesus said no man (CAN COME) unto me except the Father drag Him.
That how i know those who Have the truth in them they just naturally understand the Logic involved, and those who don't can't follow the logic and won't except it either, no matter how simple it is.
I tell you this so you won't get frustrated, because it is quite frustrating, when you can see it so clear, and some times we think other can too, but it's Just not true they don't get it.
peace to you and your………..gene
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,05:48) Quote (t8 @ June 01 2008,23:16) Whether we understand these scriptures or not, the fact remains that these scriptures exist and it is up to us to believe.
Scriptures also state that Jesus had his beginning at birth.It is up to us to believe.
Hi not3,
Really? Where?Quote (gollamudi @ June 01 2008,23:34) Hi T8,
Whatever verses you just quoted talk about Jesus' present position rather after his birth and now in glory with the One God the Father. Why do you see only these verses for proving your pre-existence? why not other verses like 1 Pet 1:20, Eph 1:4-5, Jer 1:5 which talk about pre-existence in the plan of God for any believer including Jesus?
If you read quote by WJ on God you will understand clearly that other than One God no one else was there in the beginning. See the explanation of Gene on Col 1:12-18 where it talked about Father who created this universe not Jesus.
Regarding your repeated quoting of phrase 'before Abraham, I am' I have already explained that it is Jesus's pre-eminence not his pre-existence as some being.
Please see Jesus in totallity not in fragments by quoting only these verses.
Peace to you
Adam
Hi GM,
John said he had seen the Word, made flesh.
He had seen his glory, not his future glory.Jn1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 02 2008,05:52) Adam……….It's like this there is them who understand and them who don't, if the vail remains over their mind no one can remove it only God himself can. That why Jesus said no man (CAN COME) unto me except the Father drag Him. That how i know those who Have the truth in them they just naturally understand the Logic involved, and those who don't can't follow the logic and won't except it either, no matter how simple it is.
I tell you this so you won't get frustrated, because it is quite frustrating, when you can see it so clear, and some times we think other can too, but it's Just not true they don't get it.
peace to you and your………..gene
Hi GB,
Logic is a weak way to discern truth.
We should prefer letting the scriptures reverberate truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,06:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 02 2008,05:48) Quote (t8 @ June 01 2008,23:16) Whether we understand these scriptures or not, the fact remains that these scriptures exist and it is up to us to believe.
Scriptures also state that Jesus had his beginning at birth.It is up to us to believe.
Hi not3,
Really? Where?
Have you not read the gospels, Nick?Hi not3,
So when the gospel of John shows us the Word was with God in the beginning
and became flesh should we not believe it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2008,08:01) Hi not3,
So when the gospel of John shows us the Word was with God in the beginning
and became flesh should we not believe it?
You certainly should believe it. You should believe it in light of other clearer scriptures that tell us he received his beginning at birth.
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