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That is incorrect Nick, “three gods” a triadic. I havent seen one trinitarian make this claim. You are building straw men again.
Hi guest,
So three persons that are not persons as we would know them as they are connected.They are not separate but part of one God and have never been individual. Well they have in a way as they all have separate roles.
They are equal. But they are not really equal as there is an authority structure and they are sent by one another.
Now the Son is begotten but he also cannot have been as he is connected still to the Father from whom he was begotten.
He has life in himself but he doesn't really as he shares the life of his Father and the Spirit and they are of one substance.
This is the God that the Jews say is one ?
Naah God is one.
The rest is fantasy.
Quote (Guest @ July 16 2005,05:45) That is incorrect Nick, “three gods” a triadic. I havent seen one trinitarian make this claim. You are building straw men again.
Well Trinitarians say that there is 1 God, but 3 persons. Right!
If that is so, then that rules out that God is a person because he is suppose to be a group of persons.Similarly Jones (surname) is not a person, it is the name for a group of people. But Bob Jones is a person. So God is not a person, but the Father is, the son, etc is.
So a Trinitarian who calls someone a polythiest obviously cannot see the log in his eye. A Trinitarian who calls someone a polytheist judges himself by his own words.
Quote (epistemaniac @ July 15 2005,06:51) why is Jesus referred to as the mighty God then vic? Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Hi Epistemaniac:His name SHALL be… Mighty God…
Reconcile to:
Eph 1:17: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him….
22) And hath put all things under his feet, and GAVE him to be the head over all things to the church…Eph 2:4-6,10: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, (by grace ye are saved;); And hath raised us UP TOGETHER, and made us SIT TOGETHER in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: …..10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which GOD hath before ordained that we shoud walk in them.
Eph 2:17-22: …And [JESUS] came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more stranges and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of GOD; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the bulding fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord; In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of GOD through the spirit.
Eph4:4-6: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, who is above all, AND IN YOU ALL.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is SUBJECT unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing….
29) …for no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30) FOR WE ARE MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, OF HIS FLESH, AND OF HIS BONES. 31) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one Flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church.
- 1 Cor 11:3: But I would have you know, that the… head of Christ is God.
From what I see, since we are the actual flesh and bone of Jesus Christ, since we comprise of the very temple of which he is the chief cornerstone for a habitation of GOD, since he is one with GOD, so are we ONE together with them in every measure by the grace of God who has accepted us in the beloved. Shouldn't we call it a day and enjoy what God has wrought on our behalf through Jesus? especially since it can also be seen that everybody agrees in the bible that Jesus does worship God? Well, I sure hope so.Hi epistemaniac,
I must have missed something. why do ask me this question? I agree with the scriptures.“why is Jesus referred to as the mighty God then vic?
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”Quote (t8 @ July 15 2005,11:37) Quote (Guest @ July 16 2005,05:45) That is incorrect Nick, “three gods” a triadic. I havent seen one trinitarian make this claim. You are building straw men again.
Well Trinitarians say that there is 1 God, but 3 persons. Right!
If that is so, then that rules out that God is a person because he is suppose to be a group of persons.Similarly Jones (surname) is not a person, it is the name for a group of people. But Bob Jones is a person. So God is not a person, but the Father is, the son, etc is.
So a Trinitarian who calls someone a polythiest obviously cannot see the log in his eye. A Trinitarian who calls someone a polytheist judges himself by his own words.
God called them Adam, as I saw posted earlier. So THEY are ONE name – Adam (the man and the woman).Adam called woman Eve, not God!
The entire creation of the man Adam was a shadow of the Godhead, “let Us make man in Our image”.
So God being the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Word are YHWH. This is in perfect alignment with who God said He IS.
Simple enough for me.
hi epistemaniac,
If Scripture say He's mighty God. i have no problem with that.
as to why he was called such, cubes renditions' suit fine me just fine.
All i'm saying is that YHWH is not JEsus Christ.
Now if you mean to say that because he was called mighty God and conclude that He is aslo YHWH. I must admit I have a problem with that proposition. because to accept and believe that I have to ignore a whole lot of scriptures that plainly distinguished to two.hi guest 2,
on the contrary your conclusion is not simple.
So if YHWH is a person and the father is a person and the holy spirit is a person and the word is a person, that would make 4 persons in all, right?unless of course you want to make it mystical and complicated by explaining to me the mystery of the 3 in 1 godhead.
Vical Jesus is YHWH
If Jesus isn't YHWH then what about
Romans 10:9 with Joel 2 1 Cor 1 and Acts 4:24
Zechariah 14:5- with Acts 1:11
Plus he is called Our God and Given titles that God has
King of Israel, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God, Lord, Mighty God and even YHWHRev 5:5-7
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He (The Lamb Jesus) came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
NASURev 19:10-19 – The Coming of Christ
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”NASU
Rev 22:1-2
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,“Plus he is called Our God and Given titles that God has
King of Israel, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God, Lord, Mighty God and even YHWH”For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him – Col 1:19
Matt 21:33-39
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. `They will respect my son,' he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. -NIV
Quote (Guest @ July 15 2005,17:32) Quote (t8 @ July 15 2005,11:37) Quote (Guest @ July 16 2005,05:45) That is incorrect Nick, “three gods” a triadic. I havent seen one trinitarian make this claim. You are building straw men again.
Well Trinitarians say that there is 1 God, but 3 persons. Right!
If that is so, then that rules out that God is a person because he is suppose to be a group of persons.Similarly Jones (surname) is not a person, it is the name for a group of people. But Bob Jones is a person. So God is not a person, but the Father is, the son, etc is.
So a Trinitarian who calls someone a polythiest obviously cannot see the log in his eye. A Trinitarian who calls someone a polytheist judges himself by his own words.
God called them Adam, as I saw posted earlier. So THEY are ONE name – Adam (the man and the woman).Adam called woman Eve, not God!
The entire creation of the man Adam was a shadow of the Godhead, “let Us make man in Our image”.
So God being the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Word are YHWH. This is in perfect alignment with who God said He IS.
Simple enough for me.
Hi Guest,
So God is a SURNAME?Like JONES?
What next!
Not so. God is God. God is the Father.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Not the Son of himself nor is he part of a committee God.
11 The LORD (YHWH) would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent. NIV Ex 33:11-12
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” -NIV Ex 33:20
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, `God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' 38 He was in the assembly in the desert, WITH THE ANGEL WHO SPOKE TO HIM ON MOUNT SINAI, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us. – NIV Acts 7:37-38 (Stephen speaking)
In Ex 11, YHWH would speak to Moses face to face. But in the book of acts Stephen explained that it was actually an angel whom Moses was speaking to in the dessert. But Moses addressed him as YHWH.
If Moses the greatest prophet of the old testament call an angel YHWH, because he was sent by YHWH in his name or in his stead. How much more then Isaiah and the other prophets should address the prophesied messiah (who is not just an angel but his only son) as YWHW himself, mighty God, etc
Because to follow a different attitude to these passages must also mean that the ANGEL IS YHWH. Or YHWH is ANGEL to make the interpretation that YHWH is JESUS valid.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, – NIV Col 1:19-20
Father Is YHWH and He sent His Son Jesus, in His Name and in his stead with all His power and authority.
I hope this clarifies the Christian view that YHWH is JESUS. Or is this only a Christian view or already elevated into a creed? Hope not.
Same with the interpretation that God has triune nature. This should only be regarded as a view not a creed.
Hi v,
The Oneness creed have made it their false foundation doctrine.Trinity theorists also usually will claim that Jesus is YHWH too as YHWH is the God of the OT and they claim Jesus is still part of God and not the only begotten Son of God as he claimed to be.
Otherwise they have to try to explain how he is part of that God of a different name and they have enough confusion to explain without adding more.
Hi Vic,
Great contributions. I especially like the parable about the Land/Vineyard owner because it is one of the clearest, straightforward and simplest explanations in scripture.
actually, what is claimed is that these are preincarnate appearances of the Son… a great example is Isaiah's vision in chapt 6
Isaiah 6:1-5 ESV
In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. (2) Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. (3) And one called to another and said:“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”(4) And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
“Lord” in verse 1 is adonai, a name used of God only, in verse 3 it is yahovah that is translated “Lord”, the same for verse 5……
but we have John saying that it was actually Jesus that Isaiah saw:
(John 12:41 NNAS) These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.”
of course some will say that this was not the exact occasion, what occasion then? And no matter if this is argued, Isaiah is still clearly said to have seen ther glory of Christ prior to the Son's becoming incarnate, that much cannot be denied.
Another interesting instance of Christ claiming to be incarnate is Jacob's dream in Genesis 28 where he speaks of angels descending and ascending from heaven on a ladder…. then Jesus claims to be that ladder…. John 1:51 NASB And He said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
Hi E,
The vision is of God in his temple and not Jesus. Jesus was the only begotten Son of God and not a deity in a heavenly temple prior to his incarnation. He was only given all power and authority after deciding to empty himself and come in a body in the name and power of the Father.
Adonai 136
an emphatic form of Lord
Lord
lord
lords
As in Ps 110 quoted by Jesus“the Lord [God]said to my lord[[adonai]”
This is not only used in reference to God Himself.
Jesus is a ladder?I would have thought “on” here meant “onto” but what do others think?
Exodus 4:1 And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The LORD hath not appeared unto thee.
God himself was that “Angel” (messenger).
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