Who is this Jesus?

[david]

The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo. It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”

Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV. They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way. Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account. It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.” And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.

Mike is right. You wrote a lot and too much to comment on.

[david]

These are interesting points:

God alone is the creator. (Yet Jesus was involved in creation)
God alone is saviour. (Yet, Jesus is called saviour)
The father is the “only true God.” (Yet, Jesus is called god)

When you put enough if these together in a string, it does seem like evidence.

Here is another one: God alone is wise. (Proverbs I think?) Yet, Solomon was wise.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:19)

The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo.  It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”   Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV.  They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way.  Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account.  It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.”   And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.   Mike is right.  You wrote a lot and too much to comment on.

David,
I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way.

You don't seem to realize that there are several verses that show sincere worship, like this:

Luke 24
50Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53and were continually in the temple blessing God.

[Lightenup]

Quote (david @ May 03 2013,23:24)

These are interesting points: God alone is the creator. (Yet Jesus was involved in creation) God alone is saviour. (Yet, Jesus is called saviour) The father is the “only true God.”  (Yet, Jesus is called god) When you put enough if these together in a string, it does seem like evidence. Here is another one: God alone is wise.  (Proverbs I think?)  Yet, Solomon was wise.

David,
Maybe you should compare Jesus 'string of evidence' with Solomon's string. Perhaps you might see then that Jesus has one of incomparable measure and not be confused to infer such a silly comparison in the future between Jesus who is the Root AND the shoot with one who was merely a shoot.

Just sayin'

[abe]

Hi 4Thomas,

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD [Yahweh]; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Wow is scripture trying to tell us something here??? Maybe Isa 43:11 was a fluke where else does it reveal that God alone is saviour, I still don’t believe…..

Is.19:19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD near its border. 20It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of oppressors, and He will send them a SAVIOUR and a GREAT ONE, and He will deliver them. 21Thus the LORD will make Himself known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day. They will even worship with sacrifice and offering, and will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. 22The LORD will strike Egypt, striking but HEALING; so they will return to the LORD, and He will respond to them and will HEAL them.

Peace brother…

[mikeboll64]

And this one, Abe:

Nehemiah 9:27 King James Version
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

[mikeboll64]

And this one:

1 Samuel 9:16 NET
“At this time tomorrow I will send to you a man from the land of Benjamin. You must consecrate him as a leader over my people Israel. He will save my people from the hand of the Philistines.

[Lightenup]

How many saviors can you find that are saviors of our sin?? Do you think that might be what Jehovah means by stating that He is our only Savior?

[abe]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,16:00)

How many saviors can you find that are saviors of our sin?? Do you think that might be what Jehovah means by stating that He is our only Savior?

Hi LU,

2Tim.1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me (Paul) His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who ABOLISHED death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Peace sister.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,10:04)

David, I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way.

How about this one, Kathi:

John 9
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

Now, are we to believe that this formerly blind man gave to Jesus the worship only due to God……….. right in front of a bunch of Pharisees that were desperately searching for a reason to have Jesus killed?  Are we to believe that this formerly blind man, upon learning that Jesus was the Son of Man, recognized him as God Almighty Himself, and worshiped him as such right there on the spot?

Of course both of those things would be absurd, and you know it.

Concerning David's point about the mock worship, you must ask yourself whether the claim was that Jesus was God Almighty, and they mock worshiped him as such – or if the claim was that Jesus was the King of the Jews, and they mock revered him as such.  Which one fits the context, Kathi?  Were these Romans making fun of the fact that Jesus was God Almighty Himself?  Or were they making fun of the fact that Jesus was the King of the Jews?

Since we know it was the latter, then we know that “did obeisance mockingly” is a better translation, right?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,18:00)

How many saviors can you find that are saviors of our sin?? Do you think that might be what Jehovah means by stating that He is our only Savior?

Well, was Jehovah talking about saving the nation of Israel “from their sins” when He said He was their only savior?

Or was He referring to all the times He saved them from the hands of the Egyptians, Philistines, Canaanites, etc. ?

To me, your words above seem like just another “tweak” that you have to apply to the scriptural words to make the teaching come out the way you want it to come out.

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Isn't eternal salvation the ultimate salvation? Is Jehovah the only Savior of only a lessor salvation and Jesus the savior of the ultimate salvation? THINK.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2013,21:41)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,10:04) David, I notice that when you want to show that prokyneo doesn't necessarily mean worship you use the example of the mock worship. When those that were crucifying Jesus were bowing to Him, they were worshipping Him albeit in a mocking way. How about this one, Kathi: John 9 38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Now, are we to believe that this formerly blind man gave to Jesus the worship only due to God……….. right in front of a bunch of Pharisees that were desperately searching for a reason to have Jesus killed?  Are we to believe that this formerly blind man, upon learning that Jesus was the Son of Man, recognized him as God Almighty Himself, and worshiped him as such right there on the spot? Of course both of those things would be absurd, and you know it. Concerning David's point about the mock worship, you must ask yourself whether the claim was that Jesus was God Almighty, and they mock worshiped him as such – or if the claim was that Jesus was the King of the Jews, and they mock revered him as such.  Which one fits the context, Kathi?  Were these Romans making fun of the fact that Jesus was God Almighty Himself?  Or were they making fun of the fact that Jesus was the King of the Jews? Since we know it was the latter, then we know that “did obeisance mockingly” is a better translation, right?

Mike,
We are only told that the blind man worshiped Jesus and became His disciple. This got him kicked out of the synagogue by the Pharisees.

The disciples worshiped Jesus after He rose from the dead and showed Himself to them and then rose into the sky. That is clearly worship and given to a theos.

A theos is worshiped and His name is Jesus. This is a fact that you need to accept. Also, you believe that this theos is another theos than Jehovah. I do not think this Jesus is another theos other than Jehovah. Jehovah clearly states not to bow down to OR worship another god.

[Lightenup]

Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,20:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,16:00) How many saviors can you find that are saviors of our sin?? Do you think that might be what Jehovah means by stating that He is our only Savior? Hi LU, 2Tim.1:8   Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me (Paul) His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has  saved  us  and   called   us with a  holy   calling,   not according to our  works,  but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us  in  Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10but now has been  revealed  by the appearing of our    Savior    Christ Jesus, who   ABOLISHED   death  and brought   life   and  immortality  to  light through the gospel, Peace sister.

Good verse abe! Jesus is our Savior from death and has given us eternal life. Is the Father also our Savior?

[abe]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 05 2013,11:50)

Quote (abe @ May 04 2013,20:03) Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2013,16:00) How many saviors can you find that are saviors of our sin?? Do you think that might be what Jehovah means by stating that He is our only Savior? Hi LU, 2Tim.1:8   Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me (Paul) His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has  saved  us  and   called   us with a  holy   calling,   not according to our  works,  but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us  in  Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10but now has been  revealed  by the appearing of our    Savior    Christ Jesus, who   ABOLISHED   death  and brought   life   and  immortality  to  light through the gospel, Peace sister. Good verse abe! Jesus is our Savior from death and has given us eternal life. Is the Father also our Savior?

Hi LU,

9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His Own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Was Jesus Christ BORN from the dead?

Peace sister….

[Lightenup]

Hi abe,
yes, as the 'shoot.'

[4Thomas]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2013,10:49)

And this one: 1 Samuel 9:16 NET “At this time tomorrow I will send to you a man from the land of Benjamin. You must consecrate him as a leader over my people Israel. He will save my people from the hand of the Philistines.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is THE saviour.
So you think these people can shed there blood to save the sins of the world, why did the WORD become flesh THEN….

Your turn to show me your proof of where jesus is an Angel and then compare the weight of evidence. I would appreciate this as I don't understand whats holding you back from accepting THE Son.

Life in the Son,

Daniel

[4Thomas]

Quote (david @ May 04 2013,15:19)

The problem with saying someone worshipped Jesus, is the word proskyneo.  It doesn't necessarily mean “worship.”   Example: when killing jesus, they spit upon Jesus, mocking him, they “worshipped” him according to the KJV.  They were NOT worshipping him, but BOWING DOWN to him, in a mocking way.  Many bibles understandably do not translate proskyneo as “worship” in that account.  It often means to “bow down, to show obeisance.”   And bowing down can mean worship, but it doesn't have to.   Mike is right.  You wrote a lot and too much to comment on.

Hi David
When you see the Son you see the Father? I don't understand how can you say you don’t worship the Son?
I dont understand how you can worship the Father without the Son, there is no access to the Father without the Son?
How do you acces the Father

I am interested in the truth so please show me your truth.

Please prove Jesus is a Michael the Angel.

**Then let’s compare the evidence this is what this forum is about its COMPARING the weight of evidence ***

If we are honest we should soon find the correct Jesus.

You can’t find the truth without making a real comparison between what is deception( usually by man made organisations) and what is the truth (scripture).

Do you believe I will die in my Sin if I dont believe Jesus is Michael the Angel??
 
Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Now, did Moses write about Michael…
The New Testament teaches the follwoing scripture is for the sake of our salvation the sake of salvation.. Is this a revealation of Michael here.

Joh 5:34  But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

So why does Jesus say that no one has ever seen the Father at Anytime?  yet Scripture teaches Moses talked to Yahweh   **** FACE TO FACE **** among other explicit examples. WHY DID JESUS SAY NO ONE HAS SEEN THE FATHER- WHAT IS HE GETTING AT.

Joh 5:37  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.

Jesus makes the distinction that it wasn’t the Father Moses talked to.

Joh 5:38  And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39  SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; FOR IN THEM YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE: and they are THEY WHICH TESTIFY OF ME.

Jesus CLEARLY says to SEARCH the scriptures in the Old Testament

Joh 5:46  For had ye believed MOSES, ye would have believed me: FOR HE WROTE OF ME.
Joh 5:47  BUT IF YE BELIEVE NOT HIS WRITINGS, HOW SHALL YE BELIEVE MY WORDS?

PLEASE SHOW ME  THAT JESUS IS REALLY MICHAEL AND MOSES WROTE ABOUT HIM. And then reconcile why Jesus teaches that no one has ever seen the Father.

I am interested in how you are going to reconcile this.

Good luck I’m glad I’m not trying to do that.

Also please tell me whats stopping you from believeing Jesus is the eternal Son, the eternal expressed image that is expressed/radiated from the Father, who is indeed The Almightly Father  

Life in the Son
Daniel

[terraricca]

Daniel

Easy, Christ and his father are both saviors ,God first because he holds all the powers to do so,and then Christ because he his the instrument that God almighty uses to save,

This is why he also his a representation of God the father ,by seeing the action to save from Christ they could by understanding the scriptures see God,

[abe]

Quote (4Thomas @ May 05 2013,17:33)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2013,10:49) And this one: 1 Samuel 9:16 NET “At this time tomorrow I will send to you a man from the land of Benjamin. You must consecrate him as a leader over my people Israel. He will save my people from the hand of the Philistines. Scripture teaches that Jesus is THE saviour. So you think these people can shed there blood to save the sins of the world, why did the WORD become flesh THEN…. Your turn to show me your proof of where jesus is an Angel and then compare the weight of evidence. I would appreciate this as I don't understand whats holding you back from accepting THE Son. Life in the Son, Daniel

Hi 4Thomas,

Num.23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent;

Peace brother..

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