Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

psThe other scripture that is similar is Rom 8.28f
” And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren;and whom he predestined, these He also called, these He also justified;and whom He justified, these He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us who is against us?”

We know many are called. We know God wants all men to be saved. We know it is the grace of God that enables any man to walk in any way towards God. Even repentance is a gift[“he brought repentance to Israel”]-so no man can boast.

But the proof is in the pudding. Those who respond to the message and obey the Son prove they were the ones chosen. We are not yet glorified so part of this word too is prophetic.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
When Jesus was baptised the heavens were opened and the Spirit was seen coming on him as a dove and it says he was then FULL of the Holy Spirit. The Father said ” This IS my beloved Son” -not “has become”.
This suggests to me God here identifies Jesus to the listeners as His pre existent Son rather than announces his new birth here.
So if this is the time when the soul and body of Jesus was filled with the Spirit of the Father then we should be able to learn about his own nature from his life recorded before this?

[NickHassan]

ps We know he “continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom” He preferred to stay in the Temple doing his Father's work at the age of 12 having astounded the teachers there with :”his understanding and his answers”.He continued “in subjection” to his parents and kept “increasing in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and men” We know he became a carpenter and lived in Capernaum.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The jews also said this about Jesus in Jn 7.15
” How did this man get his education when he had no teacher?”
Even Paul was taught by Gamaliel. Jesus must have studied by himself and been taught by the Spirit.
Jesus is
“The man from heaven” 1Cor 15.47-9
He is the one who ascended, but first descended. Eph 4.9-10

[NickHassan]

Cont,
Hebrews 1.10 tells us that Jesus, as the logos, laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of his hands.
But it tells us other things too which I would like to explore.
It tells us that there are other scriptures in the OT that on first glance seem to speak of the Father but Paul is telling us some of them refer to the Son.
Paul shows us several here where Jesus as logos is called God and Lord. We know that the Father is the God and Lord of Jesus but Jesus is Lord and God to all others below him in stature.All knees will bow to him too.
But how can we discern the difference when we look at the OT which scriptures apply to Jesus ? Who can help?

[Proclaimer]

Q Why is it important that we know who and what Jesus is?

A So we can attain the whole measure of the fullness of Christ and reach unity in the faith.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Here is a scripture for those who say Christ is just a man who didn't pre-exist before his time on earth.

John 16:27-28
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

Notice that Jesus came from the Father and then entered the world. Then he went back to the Father. You can only go back from somewhere if you were there before.

1. Came from the Father
2. Entered the world
3. Went back to the Father

Jesus is the son of man and the son of God. He is the firstborn of all creation.

[Adam Pastor]

The Greek word used in the scripture does NOT mean going back or went back
It simply means “go”. The translation you have quoted is trinitarian-biased; hence, they have added the word 'back' to give the false impression of Jesus going back to the Father.

The Greek word used in John 16:28 is:
4198. poreuomai, por-yoo'-om-ahee; mid. from a der. of the same as G3984; to traverse, i.e. travel (lit. or fig.; espec. to remove [fig. die], live, etc.);–depart, go (away, forth, one's way, up), (make a, take a) journey, walk.

(BTW, the same 'trick/falsity' is done in the modern bibles' translation of John 13:3, where again the word 'back' is added or the word 'return…' is used. However, the greek word is:
5217. hupago, hoop-ag'-o; from G5259 and G71; to lead (oneself) under, i.e. withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), lit. or fig.:–depart, get hence, go (a-) way.)

In John 16:28, Jesus is simply saying that he came from the Father and he was about to leave this world and go to the Father.

1) To come from the Father … is to be read in the same sense that John the Baptist was sent from GOD
[John 1.6]. Although, John the Baptist, was sent from GOD, he did not pre-exist. He was born into this world (came into this world). The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth.

2) To 'come into this world' is a synonymous expression of the phrase, to be 'born into this world'. See
(John 1:9)  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Every human being has come into this world. Did they pre-exist in Heaven or any other place? NO! The same goes for the man Christ Jesus.
(John 6:14)  Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
The people were not looking for an pre-existing prophet.
They simply knew that one day, 'that Prophet' would be born into this world i.e. come into the world. Here, they confess that Jesus of Nazareth, the man before them, is that Prophet.
(John 11:27)  She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
The same goes for Martha. Here she confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, the one promised by GOD, who would come into the world.
Compare …
(John 16:21)  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
(John 18:37)  Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Born into the world = Come into the world
Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of GOD, the Prophet …
who was to one day, come into the world i.e. via Birth, like every other human (except of course, Adam and Eve).
(Isa 9:6)  For unto us a child is born, …
(Gal 4:4)  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

3) Jesus was to 'go' to the Father.
There are Greek words in the NT which mean to go back, went back, return (e.g. anakampto, epistrepho, hupostrepho, epanerchomai, etc). But they are never used when describing Christ's entrance into Heaven.
It ought to be clear that when Christ's speaks of coming down from Heaven; he is speaking figuratively; esp., since he likens himself to be the True Bread/Manna from GOD.

'From Heaven' is used as a synonym to mean to come or be sent 'From GOD'

(James 1:17)  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
This includes Christ Jesus, who is GOD's gift to the world.
However Jas 1:17 is not meant to be taken to mean that good gifts literally descend from Heaven; it means that good gifts come from GOD, and therefore, are figuratively, poetically, described as coming down from the Father.
Jesus asked …
(Mat 21:25)  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?

Again, Jesus' audience understood that the phrase, from Heaven means from GOD. Jesus asked, was John's Baptism, ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD.
And just as John's Baptism is ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD i.e. from Heaven; likewise Jesus the Messiah was ordained/commissioned/sent of GOD i.e. from Heaven! Even as John, his predecessor was! [John 1.6]

(John 3:27)  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
In other words, a man cannot receive anything except it is given him from GOD. 'From Heaven' =  'From GOD'

Therefore, the reason we know that Jesus' going to the Father is NOT to be taken figuratively, is because the NT clearly informs us, that Jesus literally ascended into Heaven itself.
From whence, we await his Return.
(Heb 9:24)  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

In conclusion then …
Jesus …
a) came from the Father i.e. the Father brought him into existence and commissioned him to be the Messiah (cp. Jere 1.5)

b) He came into this world i.e. he was born into this world like everyone else (cp. John 1.9 … every man that cometh into the world.)

c) And he went literally to GOD. He ascended to Heaven to be in the presence of GOD. He had never literally been in Heaven before! Neither did he pre-exist anymore then any other human pre-exists

Hope the above clarifies John 16:27-28.

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,
I do not agree to your approach to the scriptures on these matters. It does make plain your doctrinal beliefs about Jesus Christ which, however, deny the essential divinity of the Son of God. Certainly there are trinitarian influences in some more modern NT translations that are a stumbling block though and I am grateful to you for pointing these out.

As I understand it your doctrinal view is:

Jesus is just a man.
Jesus is just a prophet.
Jesus cannot be any more than the Jews were expecting.

Thus the Old Testament is more important than the New and
all scriptures that do not plainly agree with these views are figurative.

Very neat and tidy and that enables an easy doctrinal defence. Similar in a way to catholicism which, however, spiritualises all that disagrees with it's dogmas as mysteries.

But 2Cor 3 ” We are not like Moses who used to hide his face with a veil so that the Israelites could not see the final fading of that glory. Their minds ,of course were dulled.To this very day , when the OT is read the veil remains unlifted;it is only in Christ that it is taken away. Even now, when Moses is read a veil covers their understanding”
4.2″ Rather we repudiate shameful, underhanded practices. We do not resort to trickery or falsify the Word of God . We proclaim the truth openly and commend ourselves to every man's conscience before God .If our gospel can be called 'veiled'in any sense , it is such only for those headed toward destruction. Their unbelieving minds have been blinded by the god of this present age so that THEY DO NOT SEE THE SPENDOUR OF THE GOSPEL SHOWING FORTH THE GLORY OF CHRIST, THE IMAGE OF GOD”

So is it wise to rely on the Jewish view of the expected Messiah? Was he recognised or welcomed by those sitting in the seat of Moses? Was the nature of the Messiah fully revealed to the Jews prior to Jesus arrival or was it partially concealed and were their minds affected by the 'veil'?

Jesus Christ, the only begotten God, came from heaven. He is the man from heaven. He is also a Priest. He is a Great High Priest appointed before his human birth. He is not a priest of the levitical line but the line of Melschisidek. It says of Melchisidek in Heb 7
” without father or mother or ancestry, without beginning of days or end of life, LIKE THE SON OF GOD he remains a priest forever”

Jesus is greater than Melchisidek who is a type of Christ. It says of Jesus in Heb 7v 26
” It was fitting that we should have such a High Priest, HOLY, INNOCENT, UNDEFILED, SEPARATED FROM SINNERS, HIGHER THAN THE HEAVENS”

How can any MAN be holy or higher than the heavens? That is an oxymoron unless the Son of God is spoken of who was in the beginning with the Father.

This High Priest has entered once into the Holy of Holies on our behalf to obtain forgiveness for all and a better covenant.
Heb 10.5

” Wherefore on coming into the world, Jesus said
'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire but A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME”

How can a body be prepared for someone who does not exist?
Hebrews 8.13 says
” When it says a 'new covenant' he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing”
Why look through the eyes of an obsolete covenant and veiled viewpoint at Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Don't deny the Son of God – that is antichrist.

[NickHassan]

Hi Adam Pastor,
As you know every word in scripture is precious, every comma and full stop has meaning. Every word has been put in it's place by God and has it's own peculiar meaning in it's context.

So you says 'from heaven' is a synonym for 'from God' .Now a synonym is when a word has the same meaning. So 'slay' can be used instead of 'kill', or 'home' for 'dwelling'. But 'goat' cannot be used for 'sheep' or 'mountain' for 'hill'. The meanings, though similar, are different

So how can  'from God ' be in any way used as a synonym for 'from heaven'?

God created heaven. God lives in heaven. That is where the similarity of the words ends. So the words are not interchangeable without destroying the meaning of the phrase and the context.

If God had wanted to use 'from heaven' in any biblical phrase He would want it to mean something entirely different than if He used the words 'from God'. Likewise He would use the words 'from God' when He wanted to make a particular point or show a particular emphasis when the use of the words 'from heaven' would say something else.

To interchange words like this is, on the surface anyway, scriptural abuse. I have to ask where you get the authority to make these apparent wholesale distortions of the truth from?

[Is 1:18]

Hey NH, t8, nate, Sammo…..
Just wanted to wish you all a happy Christmas,
Take care and God bless

Is 1:18

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18.
Wecome back bro. We have missed your contributions. Come on back and lets walk together for awhile. The path is narrow and parts of it are steep but how can we help our brothers if we don't share the lessons it teaches? When we stumble it is good to have a friend with you isn't it? We have the same destination and the same map and compass so it can't be that difficult. Blessings to you and yours, and you too t8 and all else in the forum.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Can we go back and look at the stumbling stone of Zech 14?

“Lo, the day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst, and I shall gather all the nations against Jerusalam for battle; the city shall be taken, houses plundered ,women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Then the Lord shall go forth and fight against those nations, fighting as on a day of battle. that day his feet shall rest upon the Mount of Olives , which is opposite Jerusalem in the east. the Mount of Olives shall be cleft in two from east to west by a very deep valley, and half of the mountain shall move to the north and half of it to the south. and the valley of the Lord's mountain shall be filled up when the valley of those two mountains reaches it's edge;it shall be filled up as it was filled up in the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the Lord, my God shall come, and all his holy ones with him”

So looking at these verses who is coming to stand on the Mount of Olives, a place Jesus often went to [Lk22.39]?
Is it the Father? The Word YAHWEH is used so that refers to Him. but the Father lives in heaven. He cannot be contained in any being as His glory would destroy it.
So is it Jesus? Yes we know from frequent references to the return of Jesus that he comes as warrior King to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem when they are surrounded by armies and establish his millenial kingdom.
So does that mean Jesus is YAHWEH? Well that notion cannot work as that also would mean the same as the above and cause the same problems. The Father would leave heaven and live in flesh which is heresy. All the scriptures about Jesus and his Father and their relationship would have to be discarded.
The Son of God would also be that God. He would have begotten himself, sent himself, obeyed himself and give his kingdom back to himself.
Is it a trinity standing on the mountain? What does a trinity look like? If it has a being does it have feet? It would cause the same problem anyway with heaven being abandoned and all of this being confined to a body. Does that make sense?

No the answer is that Jesus does all his work in the NAME of his Father. His mission authority is in that NAME and the work he does gives glory back to the Father. Jesus also worked in his own name and tells us to do the same as his name also has great power and authority. But there is a higher NAME, that of his God and our God, the FATHER.
Jn 5.43
” I have come in my Father's NAME “
” Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed is he who comes in the NAME of the Lord!  Hosanna in the highest”  What do you think?

[Proclaimer]

Yes Merry Christmas Is 1:18.

I hope 2005 is a year of blessing for you.

Take care.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
One of the greatest issues with a trinity concept is that it insults the Father. Three equal persons in one God reduces the Father to be equal to his Son and his Spirit sent to serve God in Jesus. It reduces the Father's Glory to be equal with His creation.

His glory is greater than all, even that of His only begotten Son. His Son is His reflection and he has far greater glory than any angel or man but the Father's glory is much greater still.

Even in the natural world you can be blinded by the reflection of the Sun in a mirror, or you could light a fire with it. The moon, also, reflects enough of the light of the sun to allow men to see on part of the earth at night. Men can even stand on the surface of the moon. But no one can approach the source of the light-the Sun.

When the 3 apostles went up the mountain with Jesus in Mt 17 his glory was revealed to them and they fell face down to the ground. This was glory that he had prior to his death and resurrection and indeed prior to his coming to live on earth.

But Jesus told us his Father is greater than him so we should not imagine it is as little as Jesus showed us. He lives in unapproachable light.

Satan knows he is defeated. All he can hope to to in the little time he has left is to use men to insult God, without them even being aware of what they are doing, and take as many of them to perdition with him as well.

Insulting God is unwise behaviour.

[Proclaimer]

It amazes me that men cannot accept that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Man has to change the truth of God for the lies of men. What's the point? What benefit is there in believing in lies?

The truth about who Jesus/Yeshua seems to be under the severest of attacks. But the truth as delivered by Christ and his disciples was simple and clear.

Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Accept it or reject it.
Accept it by being baptized into Christ. Partake of the baptism of water in Jesus name.

If you want to be baptized into the harlot, then receive her baptism. But again I say, what profit is there to do such things?

[Proclaimer]

To DORA,

This is a good place to discuss this. I have copied this from the Trinity discussion.

Quote (DORA @ Jan. 15 2005,14:48)

THIS DOESNT MEAN THE SON WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING…IT MEANS HE WAS THE PURPOSE FOR CREATION…THAT PURPOSE WAS SPOKEN BY GOD ON DAY ONE OF CREATION, “LET THERE BE LIGHT”…THE LIGHT IS THE SON, BUT THAT ISNT WHEN THE SON WAS BEGOTTEN

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 3:13
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

[DORA]

just a few comments & thoughts>>>was Jesus a pre existing thought or a pre existing deity that lowered himself into becoming a seed in the womb of a woman, which is the teaching of both trinity & oneness theology?

Jesus was not a thought…he was purpose in the beginning…he was the purpose for the creation & formation of all things…the expression of that purpose was “let there be light” on day one…the logos, word was not formed or created..the “light” already existed because God is light…essentially what God said is “let the light be that is”…this is not pre existance but rather predestination

God saw the end from the beginning & all was His express image, which is His son…the light that God expressed in the beginning was the purpose to bring forth His express image in flesh…this does not mean that Jesus is deity because God alone is deity, but the light that God purposed in the beginning was the anointing that belonged uniquely to His hier…His hier of all that He made & formed, ie, the heavens & the earth & all the hosts thereof…the hosts are often overlooked (this is the angelic beings that are not flesh & blood)…even the angelic beings were made for the son to inherit

the light which was the anointed one (Messiah) was made flesh when Mary concieved…she did not concieve by the spirit of God as taught…God spoke in the order of procreation that like would beget like kind…Mary was flesh & the seed she concieved was flesh or she could not have concieved it…God used the genetic process, ie, he was begotten of a seed & an egg in the womb of a woman

we are told how this was accomplished & it isnt a mystery as taught…God gave the covenant to Abraham for the seed, but it was foretold all the way back in the garden after the fall…it was foretold in the very order of nature itself, ie, all things in the earth originate with a seed…the tree of life is a foreshadowing of Messiah as are other things in the garden, but God foretold that the seed would be the seed of the woman (not the man)…God took woman out of man to bring His only begotten son of the woman

the covenant to accomplish this was with Abraham…Isaac was also a miraculous conception only it was the literal seed of Abraham & God generated the egg in Sarah's womb (we know this bc Abe later had other offspring with his 2nd wife)…God said the seed (Messiah) would be called in Isaac…that means in the genetics of Isaac there was the pattern for a female to be born with a seed in her womb (some would call it a mutation)

when Mary became furtile Gabriel was sent to her to tell her the seed was in her womb & gave her all the details of her conception…the conception was the result of the quickening spirit of life that is God Himself…does that mean that Jesus is God? no…he was concieved by the anointing that was his alone, ie, the light…he was not that light but was fully joined to that light by that anointing

his anointing was that of hier, the anointed one (uniquely begotten son destined to inherit all creation)…this takes some explaining which would take too much time…i will say this>>>Jesus was fully a human being…he never claimed to be deity…he knew who he was without any question & he knew he was unique to any other human being…he is Lord over all creation, including humanity (psalm 2) says “ask of me (YVAH, the Father & only deity) & I will give you the heathen for an inheritance”…everything belongs to Jesus & he is the only way to be reconciled to deity, who is YVAH, his father & ours (john 20:17)

[DORA]

here is a nuget of interest (at least it was to me )

the scripture where Jesus says “before Abraham was I am” is not used as it is taught to mean that Jesus is “the” I AM

the word before actually is used in the sense of being greater than & not as in a time…the correct rendering of that scripture would more accurately be translated, “I am greater than Abraham” or “one greater than Abraham am I”

[Proclaimer]

Jesus was saying that he was before Abraham. It is correct, that he wasn't saying he was the 'I AM' of the OT.

The question that was asked him was as follows:

John 8:57
“You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

Jesus was reply was as follows:

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

He was saying that he was before Abraham.

[Author]

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