Who and why is enoch?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,10:53)

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2014,22:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,10:29) Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2014,20:57) Mike, to my understanding people do not die and keep jumping up some were as another person , this is not the way of God the creator of all things, MT 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” MT 17:11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; MT 17:12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” I have no idea where some people get their info as that Elijah as to come back at the end of the 1000 years  beats me Pierre, Jesus plainly told us that John the Baptist WAS Elijah. Matthew 11 11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear. He will come again……. before the great and dreadful day of Jehovah. Mike Quote Jesus plainly told us that John the Baptist WAS Elijah. I do not read that in scriptures ; Mt 17:10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Mt 17:11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. MT 17:12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Jesus was talking about John the Baptist that time as well. Pierre, how can I post a scripture in which Jesus plainly tells us that John the Baptist WAS the Elijah who was to come, and then you respond by saying, “I do not read that in scriptures” ? How can you NOT read it in the scriptures, when I just posted and bolded the actual scripture that says it?

Mike

you have to explain the words I give you in my previous quote to you ;

Jn 1:21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not

Jn 1:25 questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

Jn 1:23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ”

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

please why did Jesus says that “Elijah already came “”

and yet John the baptist says quite frankly and clearly ; “I am not”

so please explain it  

Quote

Jesus plainly told us that John the Baptist WAS Elijah.

Jesus never said that ;

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,13:22)

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2014,00:18) Hi Pierre,   Here is the part that clarifies the meaning, it says that he is firstborn of the dead, NOT THE FIRST CREATED BEING. “(he, Jesus is) the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”  (Col 1:18) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Edj don't start again ;first things first Paul talks not you ;so follow Paul view not the way you want;or do you not believe Paul words Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. if you want we can see and go through Paul's words step by step or better number each item or thought ,he describes , so we both follow the reasoning he teaches ;okay???

Hi Pierre,  OK

“God The Father” is the “Subject” in Col.1:12-20 and Jesus is the Object; English 101.
I will take the liberty to insert both the subject and object into the text for 'your' understanding.
Normally I remove the numbers, but for explanation purposes, my “Free Will” will leave them in for you.
There is no inconsistencies with the rest of “The Bible” – viewing Col.1:12-20 in the light of my view. (Eph.5:13)

Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet
to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light (Romans 8:17):
13: Who (YHVH our God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son(switching to object):
14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15: Who(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(YHVH), the firstborn of every creature:
16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): (compare with Revelation 4:11)
17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. (see also Isaiah 42:5-7)
18: And he(Jesus Christ)(switching back to the object) is the head of the body, the church:
who is the beginning(the preeminence of God), the firstborn from the dead (Romans 1:4);
that in all things he(Jesus) might have the preeminence(over all his brethren).
19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fulness dwell;
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus) cross,
by him(YHVH) to reconcile all things unto himself(2Cor.5:18);
by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven.

Lets now look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,13:40)

Quote (Ed J @ June 21 2014,10:24) Hi Pierre, The term “firstborn” is about Jesus' preeminence, not a secret creation tale of the order of created morphedTM angels. No matter how many times you present that misconception, it will never change what Scripture clearly says about God's Son. Ed, the term “firstborn” has, as its DEFAULT meaning:  “the one born first”. There are other metaphorical uses of that word, but in each case, it is clear from the context that “firstborn” is being used metaphorically. What context tells us that the word “firstborn”, in the case of Jesus, is metaphorical, and not literally “the one born first”? For example, Col 1:15-16 tells us that Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, FOR everything in heaven and on earth, whether visible or invisible, was created through him and for him. (1)You have to admit that this makes a pretty good argument to take “firstborn of EVERY CREATURE” literally.  Because if he was not literally the first one born, how could EVERYTHING in heaven and on earth have been created through him and for him? (2)At the very least, you cannot condemn us for believing those words the way we do.   (3)You cannot honestly say we are “adding to” or “twisting” the scriptures.  Because the truth is that we are just applying the MOST LOGICAL meaning to that statement.  Ie:  “He HAD TO BE the first one born, for all the other ones were created through him.”

Hi Mike,

1) I admit that's the verse you are interpolating.

2) Condemn no, reason with yes.
3) I would say “adding to”

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,13:49)

Quote (Ed J @ June 21 2014,12:18) Hi Pierre,   Here is the part that clarifies the meaning, it says that he is firstborn of the dead, NOT THE FIRST CREATED BEING. “(he, Jesus is) the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”  (Col 1:18) Ah………… (1)Case in point.  When it says Jesus was “the firstborn from the dead”, isn't it a LITERAL statement?  Isn't he LITERALLY the first of the first fruits to have been raised from the dead to everlasting life?  Was he not LITERALLY the first – with many brethren soon to follow? (2)So once again, the CONTEXT tells us that Jesus was LITERALLY the “one born first from the dead”. (3)So why ISN'T it the literal meaning in Col 1:15?  Because you don't WANT it to be?

Hi Wakeup,

1) Yes
2) Yes

3) Because the theme of the text (OR THE CONTEXT) is Christ's preeminence, not order of events.
Changing the meaning to the order of events is to change the meaning of the text

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Edj

Col 1:8 and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.

Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.

Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord (Jesus)and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his (Jesus) glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.

Col 1:13 For he(the father)has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, (Jesus)

Col 1:14 in whom (Jesus)we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Col 1:15 He (Jesus)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son)

(EDJ VERSION;16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): )

Col 1:17 He(Jesus the son) is before all things, and in him (Jesus)all things hold together.

(Edj version;17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.)

Col 1:18 And he (Jesus)is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(Jesus)

Col 1:20 and through him (Jesus)o reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his(Jesus) blood, shed on the cross.

Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

i HAVE ADDED THE NAMES IN SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHO IT IS ;

NOW WE CAN SEE WHERE WE ARE DIFFERENT LIKE THE VERSE ;16,17,

I have no intention of changing the scriptures in any way but the truth ;the truth in all the spirit of the scriptures ,without breaking one single verse ;

and I can see you still believe all things as you did when I met you in the beginning on this site ;

so let us pull out the two verses where we do not seem to see the same things in it and please add to it your reasons at least three verses in scriptures with clear statement of what you want to say ; okay

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 21 2014,23:04)

Mike you have to explain the words I give you in my previous quote to you ; Jn 1:21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not

Pierre,

From NETNotes:

According to the 1st century rabbinic interpretation of 2 Kgs 2:11, Elijah was still alive. In Mal 4:5 it is said that Elijah would be the precursor of Messiah.

How does one reconcile John the Baptist’s denial here (“I am not”) with Jesus’ statements in Matt 11:14 (see also Mark 9:13 and Matt 17:12) that John the Baptist was Elijah?

Some have attempted to remove the difficulty by a reconstruction of the text in the Gospel of John which makes the Baptist say that he was Elijah. However, external support for such emendations is lacking.

According to Gregory the Great, John was not Elijah, but exercised toward Jesus the function of Elijah by preparing his way. But this avoids the real difficulty, since in John’s Gospel the question of the Jewish authorities to the Baptist concerns precisely his function.

It has also been suggested that the author of the Gospel here preserves a historically correct reminiscence – that John the Baptist did not think of himself as Elijah, although Jesus said otherwise.

Mark 6:14-16 and Mark 8:28 indicate the people and Herod both distinguished between John and Elijah – probably because he did not see himself as Elijah. But Jesus’ remarks in Matt 11:14, Mark 9:13, and Matt 17:12 indicate that John did perform the function of Elijah – John did for Jesus what Elijah was to have done for the coming of the Lord.

C. F. D. Moule pointed out that it is too simple to see a straight contradiction between John’s account and that of the synoptic gospels: “We have to ask by whom the identification is made, and by whom refused. The synoptic gospels represent Jesus as identifying, or comparing, the Baptist with Elijah, while John represents the Baptist as rejecting the identification when it is offered him by his interviewers. Now these two, so far from being incompatible, are psychologically complementary.

The Baptist humbly rejects the exalted title, but Jesus, on the contrary, bestows it on him. Why should not the two both be correct?”

Take it how you want to, Pierre.  It is a hurdle to overcome when John says he ISN'T Elijah, and Jesus says he WAS the Elijah who was to come.

The last part of the NETNotes – the part I supersized – makes the best possible sense, IMO.

There is some precedent in scripture about not placing your own self on high.

John 8:13
The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

That would explain John not coming out and saying he was Elijah.  For Christ even warned his disciples not to tell everyone he was the Messiah:

Mark 8
29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

But that doesn't explain why John would plainly say he WASN'T Elijah……. for Jesus never actually DENIED being the Christ.

It had apparently been a mystery for many years, Pierre.  But in any apparent contradiction, I would take the words of Jesus over the words of anyone else.  If JESUS said John was the Elijah who was to come, then I believe JESUS.

You have a right to your own understanding.

[terraricca]

Mike

Quote

It had apparently been a mystery for many years, Pierre.  But in any apparent contradiction, I would take the words of Jesus over the words of anyone else.  If JESUS said John was the Elijah who was to come, then I believe JESUS.

first I never denied what Christ said ,and I agree with the last part of your sentence ,because in to those words :Christ never really says THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS IN FACT ELIJAH DOES IT NO

BUT IT WAS MORE LIKE ;THE ONE THAT WAS TO COME BEFORE i CAME ,HAD COME ; this is how I understand it from scriptures

both were announced to come ,but one before the other

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ June 22 2014,02:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,13:49) Ah………… (1)Case in point.  When it says Jesus was “the firstborn from the dead”, isn't it a LITERAL statement?  Isn't he LITERALLY the first of the first fruits to have been raised from the dead to everlasting life?  Was he not LITERALLY the first – with many brethren soon to follow? (2)So once again, the CONTEXT tells us that Jesus was LITERALLY the “one born first from the dead”. (3)So why ISN'T it the literal meaning in Col 1:15?  Because you don't WANT it to be?   1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Because the theme of the text (OR THE CONTEXT) is Christ's preeminence, not order of events. Changing the meaning to the order of events is to change the meaning of the text

But “preeminence” is mentioned after the statement, “firstborn from the dead”, right?

Yet you agreed that “firstborn from the dead” was a LITERAL statement, because Jesus was LITERALLY the one who was born first from among the dead, right?

So how can you then back up a couple of verses, and say “firstborn of every creature” is NOT literal, because that phrase deals with Jesus' preeminence?

See what I mean? If either of the “firstborn” statements had to do with Jesus' preeminence, wouldn't it be the one closest to the word “preeminence”?

How can you say the “firstborn” phrase closest to the word “preeminence” refers to a LITERAL firstborn, but the phrase that is much farther removed from the word “preeminence” is a METAPHORICAL use, referring to Jesus' preeminence?

Plus, you don't accurately address the word “FOR”………..

Colossians 1 KJV
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

What does that word “for” mean, Ed? It means that Jesus HAD TO HAVE BEEN the first creature born, BECAUSE all those other things were created THROUGH him.

So instead of us adding to or twisting the teaching, it is really YOU who is doing that. There is no context or even a hint that would tell any of us that “firstborn of every creature” WASN'T a literal statement. Yet, because of your own wishes, you imagine such a context or hint.

The word “FOR” makes a clear and instructional connection between verses 15 and 16. Yet, because of your own wishes, you fail to see this instructional connection.

Here is an example of what you are doing:

Exodus 11:5
Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.

I, Ed J, have PERSONAL REASONS for not WANTING the above scripture to refer to the LITERAL firstborn sons of Egypt, and so I will just INVENT the notion that it refers METAPHORICALLY to the sons who are “preeminent among Egypt”.

But you can't do that, Ed. There is no context or hint in Exodus 11:5 that the word “firstborn” refers to anything other than the ones who are LITERALLY the first ones born……. so you can't honestly just let your own personal WISHES override common sense, and cause you to IMAGINE some context which allows you to change the literal meaning of the word “firstborn” in that verse.

Nor can you honestly allow your own personal WISHES to change the literal meaning of “firstborn of every creature” in Col 1:15 to a metaphorical meaning – just because you don't LIKE the literal meaning.

So you are FAR AWAY from being able to accuse US of manipulating the scriptures in this case. Because YOU are clearly the one who is imagining your own ideas INTO the actual words that were written.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,11:19)

Christ never really says THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS IN FACT ELIJAH DOES IT NO BUT IT WAS MORE LIKE ;THE ONE THAT WAS TO COME BEFORE i CAME ,HAD COME ; this is how I understand it from scriptures both were announced to come ,but one before the other

Pierre,

Read the context:

Matthew 11
11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 1

3 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Who does the word “HE”, in verse 14, refer to….. if not to John the Baptist?

You say that “both were announced to come, one before the other”, right?

Well, WHO EXACTLY came “before Jesus”? Who was the Elijah who was to come before the Messiah, if not John the Baptist?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2014,23:41)

Quote (terraricca @ June 22 2014,11:19) Christ never really says THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS IN FACT ELIJAH DOES IT NO BUT IT WAS MORE LIKE ;THE ONE THAT WAS TO COME BEFORE i CAME ,HAD COME ; this is how I understand it from scriptures both were announced to come ,but one before the other Pierre, Read the context: Matthew 11 11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. 1 3 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear. Who does the word “HE”, in verse 14, refer to….. if not to John the Baptist? You say that “both were announced to come, one before the other”, right? Well, WHO EXACTLY came “before Jesus”?  Who was the Elijah who was to come before the Messiah, if not John the Baptist?

Mike

so John the baptist is Elijah reincarnated

through John father and mother

I do not know one scripture that talks about reincarnation of any kind ,

Quote

Well, WHO EXACTLY came “before Jesus”?  Who was the Elijah who was to come before the Messiah, if not John the Baptist?

WHO REALLY WAS THE CHRIST TO COME AFTER THAT ELIJAH COME WAS IT JESUS  OF NAZARETH  YES

WHO REALLY WAS THE ELIJAH THAT AS TO COME BEFORE THE MESSIAH WAS IT NOT JOHN THE BAPTIST YES IT WAS

WHAT DOES THE NAME OF ELIJAH MEANS “My God is Yahweh) AND WHAT DID HE SUPPOSE TO DO WHEN HE CAME BEFORE THE ANOINTED ONE   ARE ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES FULFILLED IN THE WORKS OF JOHN THE BAPTIST YES

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,02:21)

so let us pull out the two verses where we do not seem to see the same things in it and please add to it your reasons at least three verses in scriptures with clear statement of what you want to say ; okay Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (EDJ VERSION;16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): )

Hi Pierre, OK.   Here is my reasoning…  

Lets look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny…

16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities,
or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11)

---

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”…

1. God's throne
2. God's dominion
3. God's principality
4. God's power
5. God himself

Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

---

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17…

17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist.

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself?
Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist?
How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2014,05:49)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,02:21) so let us pull out the two verses where we do not seem to see the same things in it and please add to it your reasons at least three verses in scriptures with clear statement of what you want to say ; okay Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (EDJ VERSION;16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): ) Hi Pierre, OK.   Here is my reasoning…   Lets look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny… 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son)

this verse says that CHRIST IS THE FIRST CREATION OF ALL CREATION OF GOD (JUST AS ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN CREATED ON EARTH AND GOD CREATED ALL MEN TROUGH HIM  AND SO FOR HIM)

IN A SAME WAY GOD DID WITH CHRIST HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON)

[terraricca]

Edj

Quote

Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God?

Col 1:17 He (Christ)is before all things, and in him(Christ)all things hold together

Christ is before all things but God is not included in the all thing because the verse 16 says he is the first of God's creation ,so he start his life as the first creation of God and THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF CREATION ,

DO NOT ASK ME WHAT GOD WANTS AND DO , AT THIS TIME IT IS GOOD TO LOOK AT VERSE 18;

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. SCRIPTURES SHOWS HERE WHY GOD DID WHAT HE DID ,

THEIR IS NO ARGUMENT TO THIS ;HE AS SET CHRIST THE SUPREME BEING AFTER HIM ;IS THIS NOT WHAT ALL SCRIPTURES SUPPORT YES IN DEED. EVEN THE VERSE 19 MAKES SURE THAT,THAT IS WHAT IT SAYS

Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

SO ALL YOUR BANGO JAMBO YOU TRY TO MAKE AND CALL ME A PUBLISHER OF FALSE TEACHINGS IS IN DEED FALSE ;

[terraricca]

EDJ

Quote

Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion?

1) who are you to discuss if God wants to share his throne with his son

2) God dominion was never in question

3) God principalities where never in question because the son will never over run the father

4) God will share his power with his only son ,can he do that ? who going to stop him

5) God and the son are glorified with each other glory

their is no flaw,

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 23 2014,04:34)

(1) But “preeminence” is mentioned after the statement, “firstborn from the dead”, right? (2) Yet you agreed that “firstborn from the dead” was a LITERAL statement, because Jesus was LITERALLY the one who was born first from among the dead, right? (3) So how can you then back up a couple of verses, and say “firstborn of every creature” is NOT literal, because that phrase deals with Jesus' preeminence? (4) See what I mean?  If either of the “firstborn” statements had to do with Jesus' preeminence, wouldn't it be the one closest to the word “preeminence”? (5) How can you say the “firstborn” phrase closest to the word “preeminence” refers to a LITERAL firstborn, but the phrase that is much farther removed from the word “preeminence” is a METAPHORICAL use, referring to Jesus' preeminence? (6) Plus, you don't accurately address the word “FOR”……….. Colossians 1 KJV 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: What does that word “for” mean, Ed?  It means that Jesus HAD TO HAVE BEEN the first creature born, BECAUSE all those other things were created THROUGH him. So instead of us adding to or twisting the teaching, it is really YOU who is doing that.  There is no context or even a hint that would tell any of us that “firstborn of every creature” WASN'T a literal statement.  Yet, because of your own wishes, you imagine such a context or hint. The word “FOR” makes a clear and instructional connection between verses 15 and 16.  Yet, because of your own wishes, you fail to see this instructional connection. Here is an example of what you are doing: Exodus 11:5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. I, Ed J, have PERSONAL REASONS for not WANTING the above scripture to refer to the LITERAL firstborn sons of Egypt, and so I will just INVENT the notion that it refers METAPHORICALLY to the sons who are “preeminent among Egypt”. But you can't do that, Ed.  There is no context or hint in Exodus 11:5 that the word “firstborn” refers to anything other than the ones who are LITERALLY the first ones born……. so you can't honestly just let your own personal WISHES override common sense, and cause you to IMAGINE some context which allows you to change the literal meaning of the word “firstborn” in that verse. Nor can you honestly allow your own personal WISHES to change the literal meaning of “firstborn of every creature” in Col 1:15 to a metaphorical meaning – just because you don't LIKE the literal meaning. So you are FAR AWAY from being able to accuse US of manipulating the scriptures in this case.  Because YOU are clearly the one who is imagining your own ideas INTO the actual words that were written.

Hi Mike,

1) Yes, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
2) Yes the first to be raised from the dead, because of his preeminence.  Prototypes are usually junkie no preeminence there.
3) I believe the thrust of the text is Jesus rank, Jesus ranks above all creatures and that is why he was resurrected first.
4) Close, but no cigar
5) The Apostle Paul makes the point that Jesus was the first to be resurrected to point to his preeminence.
6) I have, but you have rejected what I said, “For” refers to “God” rather than Jesus; Jesus is the image of him.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,11:01)

Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2014,05:49) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,02:21) so let us pull out the two verses where we do not seem to see the same things in it and please add to it your reasons at least three verses in scriptures with clear statement of what you want to say ; okay Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (EDJ VERSION;16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): ) Hi Pierre, OK.   Here is my reasoning…   Lets look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny… 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? God bless Ed J Edj Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (1)this verse says that CHRIST IS THE FIRST CREATION OF ALL CREATION OF GOD (JUST AS ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN CREATED ON EARTH AND GOD CREATED ALL MEN TROUGH HIM  AND SO FOR HIM) (2)IN A SAME WAY GOD DID WITH CHRIST HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON)

Hi Pierre,

I know that's what you believe, but that is not what the
text is saying, nor is it consistent with the rest of Scripture.

I noticed how you completely ignored my reasoning, and instead
just declared yourself to be correct. Please do give your reasoning.

---

1) Then according to your reasoning ADAM is most important, right?   …was he not created first?

2) Issac was Abraham's only-begotten, yet Ismael was born first.
   Then according to your reasoning Ishmeal is most important, right?   …was he not Abraham's FIRSTBORN??

TOO BAD YOU CANNOT SEE HOW YOUR LOGIC FAILS.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2014,07:10)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,11:01) Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2014,05:49) Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,02:21) so let us pull out the two verses where we do not seem to see the same things in it and please add to it your reasons at least three verses in scriptures with clear statement of what you want to say ; okay Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (EDJ VERSION;16: For by him(YHVH)(switching back to the subject) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(YHVH), and for him(YHVH): ) Hi Pierre, OK.   Here is my reasoning…   Lets look at verse 16 and verse 17 with greater scrutiny… 16: For by him(YHVH) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Rev.4:11) Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? Now let's take a closer look at verse 17… 17: And he(YHVH) is before all things, and by him(YHVH) all things consist. Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) is before YHVH himself? Would 'you' have us to believe by Jesus (falsely) all things consist? How can you reconcile this belief without saying Jesus is God? God bless Ed J Edj Col 1:16 For through him (Jesus)all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him (the son)and for him. (the son) (1)this verse says that CHRIST IS THE FIRST CREATION OF ALL CREATION OF GOD (JUST AS ADAM WAS THE FIRST MAN CREATED ON EARTH AND GOD CREATED ALL MEN TROUGH HIM  AND SO FOR HIM) (2)IN A SAME WAY GOD DID WITH CHRIST HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON) Hi Pierre, I know that's what you believe, but that is not what the text is saying, nor is it consistent with the rest of Scripture. I noticed how you completely ignored my reasoning, and instead just declared yourself to be correct. Please do give your reasoning. 1) Then according to your reasoning ADAM is most important, right?   …was he not created first? 2) Issac was Abraham's only-begotten, yet Ismael was born first.    Then according to your reasoning Ishmeal is most important, right?   …was he not Abraham's FIRSTBORN?? TOO BAD YOU CANNOT SEE HOW YOUR LOGIC FAILS. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj

you got all wrong ,but then you know that anyway ;

you just know that you cannot stand against what i have presented ,and so try to belittle me ,

but all I said stands on its own

you did not need to change subject and change the focus ;

we discuss Col;1;16 and 17

so show in scriptures that my view on those scriptures are wrong if you do not ,this means i am right

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,11:23)

EDJ Quote Would 'you' have us to believe Jesus (falsely) created these things “in Heaven”… 1. God's throne 2. God's dominion 3. God's principality 4. God's power 5. God himself Can you not see the flaw in 'your' assertion? 1) who are you to discuss if God wants to share his throne with his son 2) God dominion was never in question 3) God principalities where never in question because the son will never over run the father 4) God will share his power with his only son ,can he do that ? who going to stop him 5) God and the son are glorified with each other glory their is no flaw,

Hi Pierre,

1) The point is NOT if God wants to share his throne with his son, but WHO created God's throne.
2) WHO created God's dominion?
3) WHO created God's principality?
4) WHO created God's power?
5) Did Jesus create God?

BIG FLAW

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,12:34)

Edj you got all wrong ,but then you know that anyway ; you just know that you cannot stand against what i have presented ,and so try to belittle me, but all I said stands on its own you did not need to change subject and change the focus ; we discuss Col;1;16 and 17   so show in scriptures that my view on those scriptures are wrong if you do not ,this means i am right

Belittle you no, but your logic certainly FAILS!

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ June 23 2014,07:41)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,12:34) Edj you got all wrong ,but then you know that anyway ; you just know that you cannot stand against what i have presented ,and so try to belittle me, but all I said stands on its own you did not need to change subject and change the focus ; we discuss Col;1;16 and 17   so show in scriptures that my view on those scriptures are wrong if you do not ,this means i am right Belittle you no, but your logic certainly FAILS!

Edj

so I AM right as per the scriptures ,this is one step in the right direction

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