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I know this might sound a bit whack but here is a question that I have had much fun discussing with someone who believes there is no body presently on the throne.
Now personally I believe that the scripture that says there is one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus.
His arguement is that that is symbolic, of course this guy is a oneness ala pentecostal denomination believer in denial…
Anyway I was interested in your guys take on this.Hi Malcolm,
Jesus had his old battered body till he ascended. Thomas put his fingers in the wounds. At least there is nothing written to say it was changed before he left.
But to enter heaven surely he needed a heavenly body?We are told in 1Coer 15.49 that
“..we will also bear the image of the heavenly…flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable….For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and the mortal must put on immortality”
So if these words apply to us surely they apply also to the one we follow, the man from heaven.Okay it also speaks of a time when Messiah appears to his Jewish brethren and they ask where did you get those wounds and he says in the house of my friends..
Of course his body would not be the same corruptable flesh we now have, it would have to be a gorified body or he could not be ever living to make intercession for us.Doesn't it say somewhere in the OT that “in this body I will see God”? I believe that Jesus's body was changed (glorified) the same as we're told ours will be as referenced in I Thess. 4:17.
This could be because I believe that Jesus will reign and rule on planet earth after his return, eventually from the city of New Jerusalem which he has been preparing for us and it will descend out of heaven from God.
If John could be caught up into the heavenly I see no reason to believe that a glorified Christ could not appear in heaven whenever he wants, obviously a glorified body is different as you can even appear in a locked room.
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 04 2006,02:43) Doesn't it say somewhere in the OT that “in this body I will see God”? I believe that Jesus's body was changed (glorified) the same as we're told ours will be as referenced in I Thess. 4:17. This could be because I believe that Jesus will reign and rule on planet earth after his return, eventually from the city of New Jerusalem which he has been preparing for us and it will descend out of heaven from God.
If John could be caught up into the heavenly I see no reason to believe that a glorified Christ could not appear in heaven whenever he wants, obviously a glorified body is different as you can even appear in a locked room.
Good points,
Was John caught up or did he see a vision while remaining on earth?I believe it started with a vision but at the point where he is told “Come up here! I will show you what must happen next.” he was caught up into heaven. Just my opinion
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2006,04:44) Hi Malcolm,
Jesus had his old battered body till he ascended. Thomas put his fingers in the wounds. At least there is nothing written to say it was changed before he left.
But to enter heaven surely he needed a heavenly body?
We are told in 1Coer 15.49 that
“..we will also bear the image of the heavenly…flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable….For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and the mortal must put on immortality”
So if these words apply to us surely they apply also to the one we follow, the man from heaven.
Hi Nick,In my intellect I hear you and agree. The other points seem to be logical to the verses.
But the “Rule” to enter heaven needing a heavenly body?: Our spirits are to go to heaven? We enter heaven if we have the Holy Spirit in ours? Then we (our spirits) get clothed in a new incorruptible body.
Thoughts: Jesus commended his spirit into his Father's hands and was immediately in Heaven with Him. What was the purpose of Jesus retrieving his dead body and ascending into Heaven with it? Then when he returns they will see him who they pierced, etc.
Will his “glorified” body be different? I have never seen any Scripture verses that mention a glorified body.
I know that we, who are sinners, will receive an incorruptible body, but if Christ didn't sin would not his body be uncorrupted?
How are angels able to traverse between heaven and earth without being detected?
The Professor
Here's another possibility:
A PUZZLE (John 21:12)
Looking at commentaries, some describe John 21:12 as “somewhat puzzling.”
The Puzzle: Why would Jesus’ disciples who were standing in front of him ever have to ask Jesus: “Who are you”?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Let’s look at John 21.
“After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Ti·beri·as; but he made the manifestation in this way.” (John 21:1)
The disciples had been fishing through the night. It was just getting to be morning, and Jesus was standing on the beach. (I’m curious as to where Jesus was in between these appearances. He seems to pop out of nowhere and vanish just the same.) Anyway, we are told the disciples did not discern that it was Jesus. (John 21:4) But it was still likely dark and he was 100 yards away. So that’s completely understandable. But they could hear his voice.
“Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!”” (John 21:5-7)
Why hadn’t Jesus followers recognized him as being Jesus sooner? Would they not have recognized the voice of their master? And this was “the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after his being raised up from the dead.” (John 21:14)
This disciple (most likely John) discerned that it was Jesus, not because of recognizing any personal characteristic of Jesus, but after seeing the miracle.
After disembarking onto land, Jesus told them to bring some of the fish, and Jesus said: “Come, take your breakfast.”
Then what?
“Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.” (John 21:12)
Other translations read exactly the same. Instead of “had the courage to inquire” others say: “dared to ask” or “were in fear of putting the question.”They were lacking courage to ask who this man was. If you have a friend that you spend three years with and he goes away for a few days and then comes back, and visits you three times, what possible reason would there for having to ask “Who are you” on the third visit?
MY QUESTION: Why would they ever need to ask that question if he was standing right in front of them? Standing before them was the one whom they had followed, and learned from. Why would they ever need to ask that question? (Also, remember, this is the third time he appeared to the disciples as a group.)
“it should be remembered that there was something about the appearance of the risen Jesus which was different enough to make immediate recognition difficult.”
http://bible.org/seriespage/exegetical-commentary-john-21The question is, “what” was different about his appearance? Some say that because he was resurrected, he was glowing, or whatever. But, this was the third time they saw him, and heard him.
Here's the answer and here's what the Bible says:
JESUS WAS THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED TO SPIRIT LIFE.
Jesus was dead, and then he was resurrected, but not as a human (for he sacrificed his perfect human body.)OTHERS WERE RESURRECTED BEFORE JESUS, SO WHEN JESUS IS REPEATEDLY SAID TO BE THE “FIRST” TO BE RESURRECTED, IT MUST MEAN THE FIRST IN SOME MANNER.
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD,”
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “ (Also see Rev 1:17,18)
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being the first to be resurrected in a specific way. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)
JESUS GAVE UP HIS PERFECT HUMAN LIFE, HIS SOUL, AS A RANSOM SACRIFICE.
(If you think Jesus was given that human life back, with his human body, then would this not be like taking the ransom back. He forfeited, gave up, surrendered his human life. It was a sacrifice.)
1 TIMOTHY 2:5,6
“…a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all….”
MATTHEW 20:28
“…the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
COLOSIANS 1:14
“…by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.”
TITUS 2:13,14
“…Christ Jesus, who gave himself for us…”
JOHN 10:17,18
“I surrender my soul…No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative.”
1 JOHN 2:2:
“He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins…”A RANSOM IS the price paid to bring about a release or to buy something back. It might be compared to the price paid for the release of a prisoner of war. Second, a ransom is the price that covers, or pays, the cost of something. It is similar to the price paid to cover the damages caused by an injury. For example, if a person causes an accident, he would have to pay an amount that fully corresponds to, or equals, the value of what was damaged.
ROMANS 5:12
“Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”
Yes, all of us have inherited sin from Adam. Hence, the Bible says that he “sold” himself and his offspring into slavery to sin and death. (Romans 7:14)JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could s
ee him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)
ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)
Acts 10:40 (New American Standard Bible)
1 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34: “He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)
JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(Having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)
HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”
1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
The Bible is very clear when it says:
“Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.1 CORINTHIANS 15:42-50, RS: “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. . . . Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being’; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving SPIRIT. . . . I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” (Caps added)
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”
Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course [yet/however], discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”
(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO
REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
Why is it that only after catching a multitude of fish one of the disciples figures it must be Jesus? And that was the 3rd time he appeared to his disciples! (John 21:14)
Why did Jesus perform this miracle, of the fish?Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; YET, THE RESURRECTED JESUS ALWAYS APPEARED FULLY CLOTHED.—John 20:6, 7.
Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19, 20; 2Pe 2:4.
WHERE DID HIS BODY GO?
The physical body of Jesus Christ was not allowed to decay into dust as did the bodies of Moses and David, men who were used to foreshadow Christ. (De 34:5, 6; Ac 13:35, 36; 2:27, 31) When his disciples went to the tomb early on the first day of the week, Jesus’ body had disappeared, and the bandages with which his body had been wrapped were left in the tomb, his body doubtless having been disintegrated without passing through the process of decaying.—Joh 20:2-9; Lu 24:3-6.
Disposing of Jesus’ physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Why did God do this? It fulfilled what had been written in the Bible. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:31) Thus Jehovah saw fit to remove Jesus’ body, even as he had done before with Moses’ body. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) Also, if the body had been left in the tomb, Jesus’ disciples could not have understood that he had been raised from the dead, since at that time they did not fully appreciate spiritual things.But since the apostle THOMAS was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus’ side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes. He appeared, or seemed to be, fully human, able to eat and drink, just as did the angels that Abraham once entertained.—Genesis 18:8; Hebrews 13:2.
While Jesus appeared to Thomas in a body similar to the one in which He was put to death, He also took on different bodies when appearing to His followers. Thus Mary Magdalene at first thought that Jesus was a gardener. And remember, at other times his disciples did not at first recognize him. In these instances it was not his personal appearance that served to identify him, but it was some word or action that they recognized.—John 20:14-16; 21:6, 7; Luke 24:30, 31.LUKE 24:31-35
“…and he disappeared from them. And they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” And in that very hour they rose and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the eleven and those with them assembled together, saying: “For a fact the Lord was raised up and he appeared to Simon!” Now they themselves related the [events] on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the loaf.”thoughts?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 03 2006,18:25) I know this might sound a bit whack but here is a question that I have had much fun discussing with someone who believes there is no body presently on the throne.
Now personally I believe that the scripture that says there is one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus.
His arguement is that that is symbolic, of course this guy is a oneness ala pentecostal denomination believer in denial…
Anyway I was interested in your guys take on this.
What happen to the “flesh” body of Jesus?
Well,.. what was Jesus nature before he became flesh? his nature was “spirit”.
Why did he have to take on human nature (flesh)? because he came to ransom “human nature”, he came to die in our stead. It is because of “his” death, that we can live.
Why would any one think, that God would raise him from the dead as a human,(flesh) being? God gave him back his true nature, “spirit”; his flesh body had taken on “all” of our sins, and the penalty for sin is death, so his flesh body had to remain in the grave, (it was the ransom for our bodies) it had done it's job; was no longer needed; and so God disposed of it; for the same reason he would not reveal the location of Moses grave.Georg
Georg……….Scripture says Jesus' body would not see corruption in the grave, but was resurected after three days and nights , and Jesus himself said He was not a spirit because spirit has not flesh and Bone as you see (I) Have. that was after his resurrection remember. It is imperative we are resurrected with bodies and spirit added back into them or we simply will parish and never exist again. GOD can destory us by simply leaving us in the graves. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene………………gene
i'm not adding any insight to this but i just wanted to say i watched a nice documentary on discovery channel called “lost tomb of jesus” it was produced by james cameron. In isreal the israeli's were dozing to build some new settlements and came across a tomb that when they opened it had stone boxes that contained the remains of jesus and his family and mary. they showed the inscriptions of the names on each casket. of course the israeli government got ride of the bones but they still have the caskets. it was very interesting to watch, worth a watch
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,01:29) Georg……….Scripture says Jesus' body would not see corruption in the grave, but was resurected after three days and nights , and Jesus himself said He was not a spirit because spirit has not flesh and Bone as you see (I) Have. that was after his resurrection remember. It is imperative we are resurrected with bodies and spirit added back into them or we simply will parish and never exist again. GOD can destory us by simply leaving us in the graves. IMO peace and love to you and Irene………………gene
Let me say this, if Jesus had the same Body which He had before He did, then they would have recognized Him. Maria Magdalen and the other Maria did not, because He had a glorified Body. Also in John 17:5 it says that He went back to Heaven with the glory He had before the world was…no flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God….Also In John 1:1 He was The Word of God,and in Rev, 19:13 to verse 16 tells us that is what He is now, and will come back as. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS….VERSES 14-16 ARE INTERESTING……as far as we are concerned, we will have a new Body. Some will have a Spirit Body and those who will inherit the earth will have a flesh Body…..
The Baker's LadyQuote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,18:02) Let me say this, if Jesus had the same Body which He had before He did, then they would have recognized Him. Maria Magdalen and the other Maria did not, because He had a glorified Body. Also in John 17:5 it says that He went back to Heaven with the glory He had before the world was…no flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom of God….Also In John 1:1 He was The Word of God,and in Rev, 19:13 to verse 16 tells us that is what He is now, and will come back as. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS….VERSES 14-16 ARE INTERESTING……as far as we are concerned, we will have a new Body. Some will have a Spirit Body and those who will inherit the earth will have a flesh Body…..
The Baker's Lady
Hi Baker,The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.“HolySpirit“ = “Father: The Word“ … (Click Here)
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and
“The Word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I(Jesus) should say, and what I should speak.“The Word” is (אלהים) “GOD” (John 1:1)! Jesus is “A Word”!
“The Word” (Hō Lōgôs) [ο λογος]=443 is the 86th prime
meaning [אלהים=86] “GOD” ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 (YHVH=63)!The “HolySpirit” is “The Word”(of God)!
Hebrew=Greek
(86)אלהים=ο λογος(86th Prime)
(ĔL-ō-Hêêm)God=The Word(Hō Lōgôs)(Lōgôs) [λογος]=373 means “Word”, and 373 is the 74th Prime Number!
(Hō Lōgôs) [ο λογος]=443 means “The Word” and 443 is the 86th Prime Number. (John 1:1)
“God Word”=86 and אלהים=86 ĔL-ō-Hêêm both equal 86 and ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 means “YHVH”=63.In English, the significant number (74) is attributed to JOSHUA=74, Messiah=74;
also in the following: JESUS=74, Cross=74, Gospel=74, עד=74, and even English=74.
Jesus Christ (74×32) also factors 74 in Greek Theomatically:
[Jesus] Ιησους=74(x12), [Christ] Χριστоς=74(x20).
[Son of Man] υιος τον ανθρωπου=74(x40).This symbol ( > ) means GREATER THAN in mathematics
The pieces fit together perfectly: “The Word” (86) > “Word” (74).
In English it's comparable to (The LORD JEHOVAH) > (Lord Jesus=74) is the “God Son”=74!
“The Owner” > “Owner “
JEHOVAH > Jesus
86 > 74Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,01:29) Georg……….Scripture says Jesus' body would not see corruption in the grave, but was resurected after three days and nights , and Jesus himself said He was not a spirit because spirit has not flesh and Bone as you see (I) Have. that was after his resurrection remember. It is imperative we are resurrected with bodies and spirit added back into them or we simply will parish and never exist again. GOD can destory us by simply leaving us in the graves. IMO peace and love to you and Irene………………gene
That is exactly right, and it did not.
I see my wife got ahead of me, but let me answer you anyway.
If you don't believe that Jesus had a nature (spirit nature) before he became man, than this is all pointless; but for the sake of others I will go ahead.
How can you even think that any “flesh” body will reign in Christs spiritual kingdom?
Does not Paul tell us that flesh and blood “CAN NOT” inherit the kingdom? (my wife already mentioned that)
Did not Paul say, “this corruptible (body) has to take on incorruption? (spirit bodies are incorruptible)
The apostles, not “recognizing” Jesus, thought he was a ghost. Why did they “NOT” recognize him? why did Maria Magdalene think he was the gardener? why did all the other people, Jesus met, not recognize him?
A spirit being has the ability to manifest himself as a human being, not the other way around.
Abraham was visited by three spirit beings, and he prepared food for them, and they did eat.
Nowhere in the Bible will you read, that the body is resurrected, and spirit is added.
God “WILL NOT” simply destroy us in the grave, because that “IS” why Jesus came and died for us, so that we will live again, by a resurrection, but,…it is “AFTER” our resurrection, and only if we “WILL NOT” listen to Jesus then, “WE WILL DIE AGAIN”, and remain dead for ever.Georg
To all,
David (imo) has said it all – well done David.
I started reading his post and every query he asked I started to answer – but reading on, he answered it in like manner… fantastic!
Can ONE answer ever 'close a discussion'? No, – Why?
Funny, I asked someone I knew about this very thing and she (Yes, my 'exWife': Guys, (low blow) you know what I mean!! ) said:
“NO, even if you gave the absolute full and truthful answer, they will still debate…if they didn't believe Jesus Christ, why should they believe you!”Yes, she was correct on BOTH parts…!!!
– Let they who have been there, understand it.
– And they who have not yet, believe it (and be happy!)q) Jesus' clothes?
a) ha! – imMaterial … yes, left as a sign – shedding of the old [Wineskin] (Jesus' body and blood are the 'Wine', analogously) – Someone mentioned the “folded” headband.q) Where did his body go?
a) ha! – deMaterialized … Understand this and you will understand a great deal more::: MonoCLUES: All elements, everything seen and unseen … is invisible ENERGY.
Energy can be formed into [visible] particles particles photons, protons, electrons, neurons …(i'm not a physicist so fill in for me someone!).
Particles, into Atoms (Elements) : H – hydrogen, O – oxygen, C – carbon, etc.
Elements, into Molecules (Homogeneous or not)
- O (O, on it's own is quite corrosive – demanding a 'partner' element and thus can take it from undesirable others, e.g Iron..–>FeO2 –>Rust!.)
- O2 (The staple life supporting Atom)
- H2O – water (the Life Refreshing Molecule)
- C (the building block of living beings)
- CO2 -Carbon Dioxide (a synergised excretion from a higher form used as 'food' for a lower form – and vice versa! Beautiful – a synergy in a synergy – Who said there isn't a God!)
- CO – Carbon monOxide(CO demands a second O atom and drags it from your body causing you to get drowsy and – die…))
Combined groups of Molecules, into Material (body, hands, feet, heart, lung, blood, brain (no! just the material part))
So, now we have a visible, elemental, molecular, shaped body (yeah, and all the rest of the everything in the world… I was trying to keep it simple – do I really have to say it all!!)
Intelligence – … As it comes to me … I was riding bike to work .. as you do…and I began thinking …as you do… even plants have 'intelligence' (as we all know!):
– They adapt to changing conditions, or try to.
– They 'fight' and compete with one another and other species and against invading pests.
– They 'Welcome' and accommodate positive others (e.g. Insects for pollination, and protection).
– They protect themselves with poisons and spines.
– They 'devise' inventive, creative ways to spread their seed – almost as though it was to please God (And it is!)
– …getting the picture?So, “Intelligence” is the driver of 'base material bodies' – entities – an “UNSEEable FORCE” or “CAUSE”. Hmmm…. need a better name…any help here guy and gals?
So, What have I not said, oh yeah. If visible material is composed of (…ooh..ahh..) invisible energy, then visible material can be broken back down to invisible energy – but the 'Cause' still remains – always unseen.
Is anyone with me on this journey – or did you jump ship way back? or where some just admiring the sights?
Ok, taking a break…. too much too soon doesn't help.
Next chapter:
– why didn't the Disciples recognise Jesus.Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 14 2010,19:17) To all, David (imo) has said it all – well done David.
I started reading his post and every query he asked I started to answer – but reading on, he answered it in like manner… fantastic!
Can ONE answer ever 'close a discussion'? No, – Why?
Funny, I asked someone I knew about this very thing and she (Yes, my 'exWife': Guys, (low blow) you know what I mean!! ) said:
“NO, even if you gave the absolute full and truthful answer, they will still debate…if they didn't believe Jesus Christ, why should they believe you!”Yes, she was correct on BOTH parts…!!!
– Let they who have been there, understand it.
– And they who have not yet, believe it (and be happy!)q) Jesus' clothes?
a) ha! – imMaterial … yes, left as a sign – shedding of the old [Wineskin] (Jesus' body and blood are the 'Wine', analogously) – Someone mentioned the “folded” headband.q) Where did his body go?
a) ha! – deMaterialized … Understand this and you will understand a great deal more::: MonoCLUES: All elements, everything seen and unseen … is invisible ENERGY.
Energy can be formed into [visible] particles particles photons, protons, electrons, neurons …(i'm not a physicist so fill in for me someone!).
Particles, into Atoms (Elements) : H – hydrogen, O – oxygen, C – carbon, etc.
Elements, into Molecules (Homogeneous or not)
- O (O, on it's own is quite corrosive – demanding a 'partner' element and thus can take it from undesirable others.)
- O2 (The staple life supporting Atom)
- H2O – water (the Life Refreshing Molecule)
- C (the building block of living beings)
- CO2 -Carbon Dioxide (a synergised excretion from a higher form used as 'food' for a lower form – and vice versa! Beautiful – a synergy in a synergy – Who said there isn't a God!)
- CO – Carbon monOxide(CO demands a second O atom and drags it from your body causing you to get drowsy and – die…))
Combined groups of Molecules, into Material (body, hands, feet, heart, lung, blood, brain (no! just the material part))
So, now we have a visible, elemental, molecular, shaped body (yeah, and all the rest of the everything in the world… I was trying to keep it simple – do I really have to say it all!!)
Intelligence – … As it comes to me … I was riding bike to work .. as you do…and I began thinking …as you do… even plants have 'intelligence' (as we all know!):
– They adapt to changing conditions, or try to.
– They 'fight' and compete with one another and other species and against invading pests.
– They 'Welcome' and accommodate positive others (e.g. Insects for pollination, and protection).
– They protect themselves with poisons and spines.
– They 'devise' inventive, creative ways to spread their seed – almost as though it was to please God (And it is!)
– …getting the picture?So, “Intelligence” is the driver of 'base material bodies' – entities – an “UNSEEable FORCE” or “CAUSE”. Hmmm…. need a better name…any help here guy and gals?
So, What have I not said, oh yeah. If visible material is composed of (…ooh..ahh..) invisible energy, then visible material can be broken back down to invisible energy – but the 'Cause' still remains – always unseen.
Is anyone with me on this journey – or did you jump ship way back? or where some just admiring the sights?
Ok, taking a break…. too much too soon doesn't help.
Next chapter:
– why didn't the Disciples recognise Jesus.
Now why didn't God think of writing the Bible that way?Georg
Georg,
Such depth of knowledge they could not possibly understand. Jesus tried to explain some things to them but it was too much for them.
Like “Death in the body” – Jesus knew the Spirit was still alive and that person could be revived by the Holy Spirit but they though that that was THE END.
Jesus wept for Lazarus, not so much because of the 'loss' for his family, but because he was thinking of his own DEATH – a real Death and that God should raise him up to Full Spirit Life as he, Jesus was about to raise Lazarus to a 'temporary' life – Lazarus still died later in life.
Same with the widow – when he was gone (the Son) the Jewish nation would be Widowed
Same as On the cross: “Woman, behold they Son”… Jesus is saying, “You [woman/the nation] will not be Widowed[Uncomforted/thrown out/destitute] – I am leaving you my Disciples [Sons], who are now Apostles [grown up SONS]”Most diseases and afflictions were attributed to Spirits – and maybe … but all the same, Jesus showed that Mankind could heal certain afflictions themselves and weren't Spirits held:
Reggae Rap (Michigan and Smiley) (adapted)
“Jah [hit] them with diseases.
The most dangerous diseases.
Like the Polo myelitis,
the Elephantitis,
Arthritis
and the one* Diabetes*”
[yes, Jah does as he pleases]
[Him [hit] dem wid diseases]*(Diabetes type One)
The two angel (as Men) were astounded when the Disciples kept looking up at where Jesus had de-materialised, saying “Men, why do you look up into empty space… You will see him come again in likewise manner”
JustAskin
It is not “death in the body”, it is “death OF the body”; when the body dies, there is nothing alive in that dead body. Hear are some scriptures to make my point.
Rom. 6:23 “ For the wages of sin is death…”
Death is the opposite of life; you stop breathing, and you stop living.
Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”
Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”
v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”
Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”
v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”When Jesus ascended into heaven, he did not “de-materialise”, as you put it; hear is what happened.
Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
“A cloud hid him from their sight”; you shouldn't make up stuff, not if you call yourself a Christian.
Georg
- O (O, on it's own is quite corrosive – demanding a 'partner' element and thus can take it from undesirable others, e.g Iron..–>FeO2 –>Rust!.)
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