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Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 27 2013,11:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2013,05:10) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,21:16) Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING[H5769 ôlâm]
The Hebrew language doesn't have an actual word that means “from eternity”. The phrase “yowm olam”, which is used in Micah 5:2 and other verses means “from days of old”, or “from ancient times”.In other scriptures, it refers to mountains on the earth, which we can all assume were not from eternity, right? Also, Micah 5:2 speaks of the ORIGINS of this ruler who is from “days of old”. Anyone with ORIGINS is not “from eternity”.
So the question is whether or not you believe Prov 8 speaks of JESUS, and metaphorically refers to him as “wisdom”. I believe the passage IS about Jesus. Do you?
Also, I'm still waiting to here why Jesus mentions both the name of his God, AND his own new name in Rev 3:12. And I'm waiting to hear from you about whether or not the word “son”, in and of itself, implies a BEGINNING.
I did think it was in reference to Jesus but after reading proverbs I differently don’t think this now.Here are some problems I have found so far
1: Wisdom is defined as a female
2: Wisdom isn’t given a name
3: The opposite too Wisdom is Folly which is also talked about in proverbs
4: Folly is also identified as a female (adulterous among many other foolish attributes)
5: There are no messianic prophecies regarding the coming of the messiah in it.
6: God used his Wisdom in creating heaven and earth, this is what the text is saying.
7: God also eternally processes wisdom. Both the Father and the Son (Word) have the fullness of this wisdom before the world was made.
8: Proverbs spends a lot of time explaining Wisdom, its always personalised as a female.The bible wasn’t written in chapters but as books of the bible so it’s very clear now that when wisdom is being explained it actually talking about wisdom.
Proverbs 8:11-12
11for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12“I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.So who is Prudence if it dwells together with Wisdom?
God Created heaven and earth with wisdom so we are without excuse.
There are heaps of example to show that God is trying to reveal wisdom for what it really is.
Proverbs 4:6-10
6Forsake her not, and she shall preserve you: love her, and she shall keep you. 7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding. 8Exalt her, and she shall promote you: she shall bring you to honor, when you do embrace her. 9She shall give to your head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to you.Mike have to go but will answer your other questions soon, please can you now let me have a chance to ask you some basic questions to see what you believe???
I will answer your other questions first though.
Hi Daniel,“Spirit” is also defined as feminine.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2013,22:16) Hi Daniel, Most of the modern English translations were
translated from corrupt Greek text; how will that help?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Oh man. Ed J, when I hear statements like this, I start to think of the merits of having a Forum called 'Crackpots Anonymous'.Seriously, all I have heard say that the KJV is the only true Bible have been crackpots. True story that.
But you made me laugh and it is good when the heart is merry.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 27 2013,14:39) I did think it was in reference to Jesus but after reading proverbs I differently don’t think this now. Here are some problems I have found so far
1: Wisdom is defined as a female
2: Wisdom isn’t given a name
3: The opposite too Wisdom is Folly which is also talked about in proverbs
4: Folly is also identified as a female (adulterous among many other foolish attributes)
5: There are no messianic prophecies regarding the coming of the messiah in it.
6: God used his Wisdom in creating heaven and earth, this is what the text is saying.
7: God also eternally processes wisdom. Both the Father and the Son (Word) have the fullness of this wisdom before the world was made.
8: Proverbs spends a lot of time explaining Wisdom, its always personalised as a female.
This is true, but not the whole truth.She is used because wisdom is an attribute of God and not a being. However, wisdom is given birth and becomes the workMAN at God's side. You need to read further to see this progression.
Jesus is also called wisdom from God in the New Testament.
Further, the Word was with God and God created all with the Word that was with him.
If you believe that any of the early Church fathers taught correctly, they often teach that Wisdom being brought forth was the first work of the Father. In tandem they teach the Logos in the same way. Often they teach the Logos as if speaking of Wisdom and vice versa.
Perhaps they are right.
Once there was only God. And from the logos and wisdom that was in God as attributes of himself, he begat another to become the first work of the Father. From there, God created all things through him and for him. And although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself, came in the flesh, died for our sins, rose again, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the world began.
There is certainly much merit to this view.
Here is how Tatian (AD 160) puts it.
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2013,19:27) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2013,22:16) Hi Daniel, Most of the modern English translations were
translated from corrupt Greek text; how will that help?God bless
Ed J
Oh man. Ed J, when I hear statements like this, I start to think of the merits of having a Forum called 'Crackpots Anonymous'.Seriously, all I have heard say that the KJV is the only true Bible have been crackpots. True story that.
But you made me laugh and it is good when the heart is merry.
Hi T8,Yes, it would be a shame to kill the ones who bring you the message of victory.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWrong Ed J. Crackpots could engage with Crackpots and get a taste of their own medicine. And anyone else could engage with them too. And it would help clean up the lunacy in good topics in the Believers Area. And if a Crackpot had a good argument that could not be refuted or had new evidence for their teaching, they could be allowed back, so long as they refrain from crackpottery.
To me that is a win win. Crackpots are not killed as you say, they are just relegated to their own kind. And what do I mean by a Crackpot? It doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with me, but is only for those who repeat the same crap with no new evidence even after being clearly refuted.
This would help lift the quality of discussions in the Believers Area which would be great.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 26 2013,18:39) 1: Wisdom is defined as a female
Hi Daniel,The following is from Wiki:
If by “gender” is meant grammatical gender, the gender of “Holy Spirit” varies according to the language used. Thus the grammatical gender of the word “spirit” is masculine in Latin (“spiritus”) and in Latin-derived languages, as also, for instance, in the German language (“Geist”), while in the Semitic languages such as Hebrew (“רוח”), Aramaic and its descendant Syriac, it is feminine, and in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”).If speakers of a particular language were to confuse grammatical gender with physical gender, they might then think of the Holy Spirit as male, female or of neither sex, but such confusion does not of course affect the reality of the gender or lack of gender of the Spirit.
Do you understand what this info is saying? It is saying to not put too much thought into the gender of the words in certain languages, because they are only grammatically gendered, which has nothing at all to do with physical gender of the thing mentioned.
Here is a good post from <a href="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?78831-Does-the-gender-of-a-Hebrew-or-Greek-Word-indicate-the-sex-of-an-indi
vidual” target=”_blank”>a different forum:
Greek and Hebrew words are highly inflected. Even Spanish has the concept of gender. La mesa is a feminine word in Spanish but a table is not female.Likewise in Hebrew and Greek. Ruach in Hebrew is feminine but we do not consider the holy spirit to be a female. “Congregator” in Hebrew was applied to Solomon and it is a feminine word but Solomon was not female.
All words in Hebrew and Greek have either a masculine, feminine or neuter gender, but this does not dictate the sex of one who has a title related to a word that has grammatical gender.
The same is true for the Hebrew word HacMah or wisdom. Any who would use this argument for wisdom being a women must also consider the spirit of God to be female.
That should sufficiently address your point #1, Daniel. Any questions?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 26 2013,18:39) Mike have to go but will answer your other questions soon, please can you now let me have a chance to ask you some basic questions to see what you believe??? I will answer your other questions first though.
Absolutely, Daniel. But try to keep it one question at a time if you can. I don't enjoy long posts. And don't forget the question about why Jesus has a DIFFERENT name than his God right now in heaven.Mike,
you keep saying this but it is not true for the Hebrew. For the Greek it is true. Hebrew just has feminine and masculine words, no neuter.Quote All words in Hebrew and Greek have either a masculine, feminine or neuter gender, but this does not dictate the sex of one who has a title related to a word that has grammatical gender Kathi, I quoted a person from a different theology forum.
Let me ask you this:
Is my point made null and void because the guy I quoted didn't specifically say Hebrew has only female and male, while Greek has female, male, and neuter?
Of course not. So while I thank you for pointing out that tiny detail, it doesn't change the point of my post one little bit.
Now, do you agree with the REST of what I copied and pasted in green letters?
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2013,14:58) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2013,19:27) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 27 2013,22:16) Hi Daniel, Most of the modern English translations were
translated from corrupt Greek text; how will that help?God bless
Ed J
Oh man. Ed J, when I hear statements like this, I start to think of the merits of having a Forum called 'Crackpots Anonymous'.Seriously, all I have heard say that the KJV is the only true Bible have been crackpots. True story that.
But you made me laugh and it is good when the heart is merry.
Hi T8,Yes, it would be a shame to kill the ones who bring you the message of victory.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjsaying the KJV of the bible is the only truth is the same thing than saying if any one does not learn English is doomed ,sins 1611 ad
did the British learn anything out of it then or now 
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2013,14:33) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 26 2013,18:39) 1: Wisdom is defined as a female
Hi Daniel,The following is from Wiki:
If by “gender” is meant grammatical gender, the gender of “Holy Spirit” varies according to the language used. Thus the grammatical gender of the word “spirit” is masculine in Latin (“spiritus”) and in Latin-derived languages, as also, for instance, in the German language (“Geist”), while in the Semitic languages such as Hebrew (“רוח”), Aramaic and its descendant Syriac, it is feminine, and in Greek it is neuter (“πνεῦμα”).If speakers of a particular language were to confuse grammatical gender with physical gender, they might then think of the Holy Spirit as male, female or of neither sex, but such confusion does not of course affect the reality of the gender or lack of gender of the Spirit.
Do you understand what this info is saying? It is saying to not put too much thought into the gender of the words in certain languages, because they are only grammatically gendered, which has nothing at all to do with physical gender of the thing mentioned.
Here is a good post from <a href="http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?78831-Does-the-gender-of-a-Hebrew-or-Greek-Word-indicate-the-sex-of-an-indi
vidual” target=”_blank”>a different forum:
Greek and Hebrew words are highly inflected. Even Spanish has the concept of gender. La mesa is a feminine word in Spanish but a table is not female.Likewise in Hebrew and Greek. Ruach in Hebrew is feminine but we do not consider the holy spirit to be a female. “Congregator” in Hebrew was applied to Solomon and it is a feminine word but Solomon was not female.
All words in Hebrew and Greek have either a masculine, feminine or neuter gender, but this does not dictate the sex of one who has a title related to a word that has grammatical gender.
The same is true for the Hebrew word HacMah or wisdom. Any who would use this argument for wisdom being a women must also consider the spirit of God to be female.
That should sufficiently address your point #1, Daniel. Any questions?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 26 2013,18:39) Mike have to go but will answer your other questions soon, please can you now let me have a chance to ask you some basic questions to see what you believe??? I will answer your other questions first though.
Absolutely, Daniel. But try to keep it one question at a time if you can. I don't enjoy long posts. And don't forget the question about why Jesus has a DIFFERENT name than his God right now in heaven.
Hi Mike,
Your answer regarding Jesus new name…I have answered this but are real keen to get back to the simple and basic foundation of what Jesus is to you and what form he was before he created the heavens and the Earth.
Here is what I think about Jesus new name, this is what scripture tells me.
Men who are victorious receive a new name that no one knows except the one that receives it – so Jesus as a *man* will also receive a new name when he comes again victorious on the clouds and conquers all in the glory of God the Father.
I believe these new names will have special meanings for the victorious people of God – but to say I know the name when scripture clearly says no-one knows the except the one that receives it, would be folly.
NOTICE just as the victorus receive a new name that no-one knows except himself so does Jesus.
What is the name *written* on Jesus here???
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a clothing dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Jesus has many names, God with us, “my Lord and my God”, Lord of Glory, Great God and Saviour, and obviously the NAME *far* above *all principality, power, might, dominion*, named in this world and the world to come, the name that every knee in even and earth will knell to, the name of Jesus.
In his name alone we have power over demons and power to heal, in its in no other name that we willed be saved!!!Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”Even in the world to come his name is far above *all* other names
Ephesians 1:21
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.Here are the scriptures to prove that victorious ones in Christ receive a new name just as the Messiah who is victorious receives a new name.
The Victorious receive a new name, that only the one who receives it knows.
Revelation 2:17
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it...it’s all about being victorious..
Jesus says he is victorious and so are his people.Revelation 3:21
21To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.So Jesus confirms he is victorious in the scripture above
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.Revelation 19:12-13
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a clothing dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.Note Jesus is saying just as I was *victorious*
This is applying to his victory when his comes again on the clouds… Those who deny him will see the one whom they have pierced. The hole in his side where doubting Thomas put his hand.
Only the ones who are victorious will receive Jesus new name.
Revelation 2:7 …. To the one who is victorious, I will give …
Revelation 2:11 … The one who is victorious will not be hurt…
Revelation 2:17 …To the one who is victorious, I will give …
Revelation 3:12 The one who is victorious will, like them, be…
Revelation 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make …So my *guess* what Jesus will be called for his new name is…
“the Conquers of all Conquers”
Jesus says
I AM *the* Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Mike I write this as I what to know what you believe so I can know if you are saved by the blood of Jesus. I don’t want Jesus to be denied by anyone especially those that have potential to be his elect. You are obviously concerned for people to be on a forum and want to server God with all your heart.
I do not say you deny Jesus as I don’t know for sure if you know what he is and what is his essence/substance/nature …is ?
Is he God, a God or a Creature Angel, or a Creature Man?
I am hopeful that you don’t think he is Michael the Arch Angel, and that it was Michael that humbled himself to become a man to die for our sins?
Mike, you surely don’t think that – it is by Michael the Angel becoming a man and shedding his blood that the world can be saved… and have access to the Father?
I want to make this simple because I think there are many Doubting Thomas’s in this world who if they are shown the truth they can be set free and will say as the Apostle Thomas said “my Lord and my God”
We all know even the elect can been deceived so let’s get back to the foundation of what Jesus is, as he saves the world by the shedding of his blood, no one else at all can shed their blood to save the world from all their sins! Something no watchtower organisation or any church or person can ever do.
Revelation 22:12-16
12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
[NOTE: Jesus said this as shown from 12-16]
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
I will answer your other question but please answer
*what Jesus is* before he created heaven and earth?Grace
Wow Daniel, that was a long post!
First up: It seemed before that you thought Jehovah gave HIS name to Jesus, and that Jehovah (God Almighty) is actually named “Jesus” in the NT.
Are you now agreeing with me that Jesus has a DIFFERENT name than his and our God – like Revelations 3:12 attests?
Now, on to your main question: *what Jesus is* before he created heaven and earth?
I don't believe Jesus created the heaven and the earth. The God OF Jesus created all things, and there are many scriptures that distinguish Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the One who created all things. I've compiled about 7 or 8 of them during my past discussions with Kathi. I will be happy to go through them with you.
That being said, I believe Jesus was the first thing God ever made – way before the ages. Once God begat His firstborn Son, He endowed him with awesome power and prestige, and proceeded to create all other things through that firstborn Son of His.
So in short, Jesus was a spirit being from the moment God brought him forth into existence. He remained as such until the time God sent him to be born of a woman. He is now a spirit being again at the right hand of his and our God, Jehovah.
BTW, I am not a JW, and I don't believe Jesus is Michael. I do, however, agree with many of the JW interpretations of scripture, and completely understand which scriptures lead them to believe Jesus is Michael. I don't understand those scriptures the same way they do, but I cannot say with 100% certainty that I am right about it, and they are wrong. That being said, I do believe Jesus is one of the many angels (spirit sons) of God.
Thanks for being honest, but mike this is not true.
But first: Jesus doesn't give up his name he shares with the Father, Jesus is called the Lamb of God on earth and identified by this name multiple times in revelations among many other names given to Jesus.
Jesus is God, not the Father but God the Son
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
or even if you say “a” God, the Word is not an angel is it?
No man knows the Son except the Father…
What does the Father call his Word/Son and whose kingdom does he call it.Hebrews 1:7-8
7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.” 8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.The Father calls his Son God and Lord just as doubting Thomas does and also reveals the heavens are the work of *his* hands!
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”Even the Father reveals the heavens are the work of his Sons hands not an angel
Scripture calls Jesus the CREATOR it says all things were *CREATED* by him and FOR *HIM*
Who *created* all things and who are they created forColossians 1
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Mike, where is this angel in the old testament that came to earth to shed his blood so we can have access to the Father through him???
Grace in Jesus name
thomas
Quote Jesus is God, not the Father but God the Son John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
or even if you say “a” God, the Word is not an angel is it?
is Christ not the greatest messenger ever
yes he his ;angel means messengerQuote (terraricca @ April 03 2013,17:18) thomas Quote Jesus is God, not the Father but God the Son John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
or even if you say “a” God, the Word is not an angel is it?
is Christ not the greatest messenger ever
yes he his ;angel means messenger
Terraricca
Ok I didn't explain it clear enought but this is why I asked *what* is he and not what roles does he do – I also asked…“Is he God, a God or a “*Creature* Angel”, or a Creature Man?”
I am not asking these questions to be smart but to make sure you realise *what* the person is that shed his blood – to save you from your sins.
New International Version (©2011)
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,English Standard Version (©2001)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;International Standard Version (©2012)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.NET Bible (©2006)
as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
While we look for the blessed hope and the revelation of the glory of The Great God and Our Lifegiver, Yeshua The Messiah,Etc..
It’s extremely important to understand *what* his is. Its only because I care that I ask this question and not to condemn.
John 8:24
New International Version (©2011)
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”The appearing of our Great God and Saviour will be truly glorious.
It will be so amazing when Jesus comes again that it will be by Jesus *splendour* and the *breath* of his mouth that he defeats the lawless one.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.In Jesus name
DanielQuote (4Thomas @ April 02 2013,23:32) Thanks for being honest, but mike this is not true.
I will always be honest, and as direct as I can with you, Daniel. If I am wrong about any scriptural understanding I currently hold, then I am “honestly” wrong. In other words, I don't PRETEND to believe certain things just because my pre-conceived doctrine or understanding requires it.If I believed the scriptures taught that Jesus was God Almighty, I would have no problem believing such a thing.
If I believed the scriptures taught that Jesus was never anything other than a man like the rest of us, I would have no problem believing such a thing.
I come by all my understandings of scripture, not by deceit nor by personal desires for what I WANT the scriptures to teach – but by an HONEST understanding of what I believe the scriptures actually teach.
Quote (4Thomas @ April 02 2013,23:32) But first: Jesus doesn't give up his name he shares with the Father……..
Daniel, my questions will get harder and harder as we go, but this first one is really simple. And I really need a DIRECT answer to it from you.Revelation 3:12
I will write on them the name of my God……….. and I will also write on them my new name.Are you able to see that Jesus and the one he calls “my God” have DIFFERENT names in heaven?
Daniel, like many Trinitarians before you, you throw out a bunch of “Jesus is God proof texts” all at once – perhaps thinking there is strength in numbers or something.
I truly want to discuss each and every one of your “proof texts”………. but not all in one post!
So starting now, I will “cherry pick” the one “proof text” that I WANT to address from your posts, and address ONLY that one. If you do not want me “cherry picking” the “easy” ones, and ignoring the others, then simply post ONE “proof text” per post from now on. (Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere. We will get through all of them eventually – as long as YOU'RE still willing.)
And even though you have brought up John 1:1, and Hebrews 1:8 and 1:10 (Trinitarians always skip over verse 9 – the verse that talks about the God OF this other one who is called “god”
), I cannot yet address them, as much as I'm chomping at the bit to do so.Why? Because we have yet to reach a conclusion on the FIRST “Jesus is God proof text” you brought up.
It was you who claimed the “YHWH” of the OT became the “Jesus” of the NT. It was you who claimed that God gave His name to Jesus, and so they now both have the same name, right?
I am trying to let SCRIPTURE show you that they both have DIFFERENT names – even right now in heaven. Are you able to come in line with scripture and accept this fact yet?
Daniel
Quote Terraricca
Ok I didn't explain it clear enought but this is why I asked *what* is he and not what roles does he do – I also asked…“Is he God, a God or a “*Creature* Angel”, or a Creature Man?”
I am not asking these questions to be smart but to make sure you realise *what* the person is that shed his blood – to save you from your sins.
Christ HIS the only begotten son of God ,Christ (the WORD of God ) is the only being that God created directly ,all other creation was done through Christ ,SO BASED ON THIS DESCRIPTION CHRIST WOULD BE THE MOST ELEVATED BEING IN HEAVEN AFTER HIS OWN FATHER AND GOD ,
Quote New International Version (©2011)
while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,THAT SCRIPTURES YOU HAVE QUOTED ,MEANS THAT WHILE WE WAIT FOR THE PROMISE ;AS WE LIVE ON(AND APPLY HIS WISDOM) WE CAN SEE WITH OUR OWN EYES THE FULFILLMENT OF GOD'S WORD ,THIS IS THE GLORY OF GOD THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ,
YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DOES ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SON COL-1;15-21
Quote I will always be honest, and as direct as I can with you, Daniel. If I am wrong about any scriptural understanding I currently hold, then I am “honestly” wrong. In other words, I don't PRETEND to believe certain things just because my pre-conceived doctrine or understanding requires it. If I believed the scriptures taught that Jesus was God Almighty, I would have no problem believing such a thing.
If I believed the scriptures taught that Jesus was never anything other than a man like the rest of us, I would have no problem believing such a thing.
Mike, I believe you are sincere. What you have just said sounds *great* as it shows your character as not needing to hold onto a false belief because of fear.
Some man made organisations drive fear into people saying they will cut them off if you decide to change your views.Quote
I come by all my understandings of scripture, not by deceit nor by personal desires for what I WANT the scriptures to teach – but by an HONEST understanding of what I believe the scriptures actually teach.In advance, Forgive me for being direct.
So if all your understandings come from an honest understanding of scripture – where does the scripture teach that the *Word* was an angel – where do the apostles teach in their gospels that Jesus was an angel – to be direct mike, this another gospel as it doesn’t appearing in any gospels I know about.
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!Mike, how can I convince you with scripture when answering your questions – if you can’t convince me – that you use scripture to believe Jesus is an angel?
If you can’t answer this simple question and show me at least there is some foundation to what you believe – how do you expect to build on that foundation?
You say you believe only what scripture teaches and that you derive your understanding from scripture – so if you now believe Jesus is “a God” or “God the Word” the same substance of his father please tell me.Quote Are you able to see that Jesus and the one he calls “my God” have DIFFERENT names in heaven? Daniel, my questions will get harder and harder as we go, but this first one is really simple. And I really need a DIRECT answer to it from you.
Revelation 3:12
I will write on them the name of my God……….. and I will also write on them my new name.Are you able to see that Jesus and the one he calls “my God” have DIFFERENT names in heaven?
I really enjoy your questions mike.Jesus has many different names for each of his *two* natures
1) Son of God / Word = first and the last, Great God, Saviour, Alpha and the Omega etc etc and the highest name possible Jesus, “God with us” who became flesh.
2) Son of Man = Lamb of God, Messiah, King of the Jews etc etc ***but*** he has *yet* to receive his final name as the victorious King of mankind
His name as the *Word* and –Jesus– doesn’t change mike… Jesus receives another new name that’s possibly his final *new name* as the – Son of man – who was victorious it’s that simple.
Otherwise please show me where in scripture that it says Jesus will no longer be called Jesus???If you think he will no longer be called Jesus do you also think he will no longer be called “the Logos of God.”
The importance of the two names written are.
1)Jesus name, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The name –Jesus– commands us to baptise in
2)The Christ/messiah’s new name (as the victorious conqueror in flesh)See we need to *not only* believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but we also need to believe in the Messiah, that “God the Word” took flesh. It’s the spirit of the antichrist to believe that Jesus –God the Word- didn’t take on flesh.
2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.In Jesus name
Daniel
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