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Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 22 2013,19:31) The question is – What *substance* / *nature* is the word? God, angel etc
Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in the flesh. He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is raised up and at the right-hand of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began.So he was in the form of God, and that is what John 1:1c also says. The Word was divine. The Word was theos.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2013,13:41) Hi Daniel, Do you know any Hebrew?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Daniel?Hi Daniel,
This picture of one cell coming from a parent cell helps give a picture of an offspring coming from a parent and the offspring has only one parent and is identical to that parent in form, function, and attributes although it was 'begotten.' You and I see God as always having been a parent and like the picture of the cell from some point after the first stage. Others see God like the first stage…all alone and only a potential parent. The second stage the first cell is also alone but contains an offspring yet begotten and is a parent from this point. See the picture and tell me what you think:Here is that example again:
http://www.google.com/imgres?….rl=httpI have labeled the two cells 'a' and 'b' to help you follow along easier:
The cell (b)
that came from another cell (a)
was within the other cell (a)
before it (b) was separated from the other cell (a)
and was identical to that other cell (a).
Can you agree with this statement?Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,21:16) Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING[H5769 ôlâm]
The Hebrew language doesn't have an actual word that means “from eternity”. The phrase “yowm olam”, which is used in Micah 5:2 and other verses means “from days of old”, or “from ancient times”.In other scriptures, it refers to mountains on the earth, which we can all assume were not from eternity, right? Also, Micah 5:2 speaks of the ORIGINS of this ruler who is from “days of old”. Anyone with ORIGINS is not “from eternity”.
So the question is whether or not you believe Prov 8 speaks of JESUS, and metaphorically refers to him as “wisdom”. I believe the passage IS about Jesus. Do you?
Also, I'm still waiting to here why Jesus mentions both the name of his God, AND his own new name in Rev 3:12. And I'm waiting to hear from you about whether or not the word “son”, in and of itself, implies a BEGINNING.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,23:23) God said let **us** (plural) make man in our image.
Clearly the Father, Word and Breath
How can you be sure your understanding of the “US” is correct, Daniel?Consider the following:
Genesis 3
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
I believe the “US” to whom God refers, is Himself and His spirit sons, the angels. Mankind was made in the image of God and His first sons, who were previously made in the image of their Father – just like we subsequently were.
There is no logical reason to assume the “US” refers to more than one person in a Godhead – especially considering that none of us, who were made in that image, consist of more than one person in a “humanhead”.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 24 2013,07:47) The cell (b)
that came from another cell (a)
was within the other cell (a)
before it (b) was separated from the other cell (a)
and was identical to that other cell (a).
Can you agree with this statement?
You are talking about offspring here Kathi.We already know that Jesus is the offspring of God.
In your zeal to prove you are the truth, you end up supporting the truth that the only true God sent Jesus Christ his son into the world. Further we already know that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, and came in the flesh.
Cell A, B, C, D examples proves offspring are like their parent, but are not the actual parent, but are like them in nature and quality.
Yet you argue that Jesus is the son of the God that he is.
So Cell A produced Cell B and now Cell B is Cell A. That is if Cell A is God in your parabull.
t8,
You are not getting that I speak of two powers of YHWH.
Cell (a) is the first power of YHWH in the illustration.
Cell (b) is the second power of YHWH in the illustration.The first power of YHWH (cell a) brought out of Him the second power of YHWH (cell b). Cell B is identically the same as Cell A except it is a different cell. In other words, both cells are identical in attributes, types, strengths and weaknesses. Do you agree that according to the cell picture, the end product shows two identical cells? It is not showing cell B as actually being cell A but it is showing Cell B to be exactly like Cell A.
You try so hard to miss it. A child could see that the two cells are exactly the same type.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2013,19:19) t8,
You are not getting that I speak of two powers of YHWH.
Cell (a) is the first power of YHWH in the illustration.
Cell (b) is the second power of YHWH in the illustration.
I get what you say, that is why I say your teaching is not true.If you are going to go down that road, then you have to add those who are born from above too because we not only are born of God, but we get a body in the likeness of him, (Jesus). Our bodies are transformed into a body like his.
Thus you need to add in Cell C which is the likeness or image of Cell B, which makes Cell C also the image of Cell A, because an image of an image is still an image.
So now you are back to the Trinity, but that might take you 60 years to realise that. But that happens when you take a wrong turn. It leads to places that were not intended.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2013,19:19) You try so hard to miss it. A child could see that the two cells are exactly the same type.
But not the same cell.Jesus existed in the form of God (that is the same type not the same God).
Thank you. I have been saying this all along and now you have come round to this too.
Progress is slow.
Both cells are the same type…
The Father and the Son are both the same type of person, the mighty God type. Together they are even mightier.t8,
You confuse that which always existed and was brought forth by another with that which didn't always exist but was made to exist by another. There is no comparison, sorry. Hopefully you will someday realize that you have not always existed. If you did then everyone pre-existed their flesh and not just Jesus.Ke?
I am saying that the Word in God was brought forth to be with him.
I am saying that wisdom was given birth and was the craftsman at God's side.
I am saying that Jesus came from God and derived only from God before coming in the flesh.
I am saying that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, died, and is now seated at God's right hand side in the glory that he had with him before the world began.I am saying scripture. You are not. It is clear that you are attempting to get others to break the first commandment.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 22 2013,20:06) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2013,13:41) Hi Daniel, Do you know any Hebrew?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Daniel?
Sorry about the delay Ed,I have a very limited understanding of hebrew.
To be honest even if someone has a degree in ancient hebrew I wouldn't take their comments seriously without investagating what they say against real bible scholars in ancient hebrew.
Over the last decade I have been involved in training a few university graduates in technical engineering roles and have been amazed with how little they have been taught in university.
So I compare bible translations that have been compiled by bible scholars and expert translators who really know ancient Hebrew.
When you compare 5 or more solid bible translations it becomes clear what the text is getting at.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2013,05:10) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,21:16) Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING[H5769 ôlâm]
The Hebrew language doesn't have an actual word that means “from eternity”. The phrase “yowm olam”, which is used in Micah 5:2 and other verses means “from days of old”, or “from ancient times”.In other scriptures, it refers to mountains on the earth, which we can all assume were not from eternity, right? Also, Micah 5:2 speaks of the ORIGINS of this ruler who is from “days of old”. Anyone with ORIGINS is not “from eternity”.
So the question is whether or not you believe Prov 8 speaks of JESUS, and metaphorically refers to him as “wisdom”. I believe the passage IS about Jesus. Do you?
Also, I'm still waiting to here why Jesus mentions both the name of his God, AND his own new name in Rev 3:12. And I'm waiting to hear from you about whether or not the word “son”, in and of itself, implies a BEGINNING.
I did think it was in reference to Jesus but after reading proverbs I differently don’t think this now.Here are some problems I have found so far
1: Wisdom is defined as a female
2: Wisdom isn’t given a name
3: The opposite too Wisdom is Folly which is also talked about in proverbs
4: Folly is also identified as a female (adulterous among many other foolish attributes)
5: There are no messianic prophecies regarding the coming of the messiah in it.
6: God used his Wisdom in creating heaven and earth, this is what the text is saying.
7: God also eternally processes wisdom. Both the Father and the Son (Word) have the fullness of this wisdom before the world was made.
8: Proverbs spends a lot of time explaining Wisdom, its always personalised as a female.The bible wasn’t written in chapters but as books of the bible so it’s very clear now that when wisdom is being explained it actually talking about wisdom.
Proverbs 8:11-12
11for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12“I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.So who is Prudence if it dwells together with Wisdom?
God Created heaven and earth with wisdom so we are without excuse.
There are heaps of example to show that God is trying to reveal wisdom for what it really is.
Proverbs 4:6-10
6Forsake her not, and she shall preserve you: love her, and she shall keep you. 7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all your getting get understanding. 8Exalt her, and she shall promote you: she shall bring you to honor, when you do embrace her. 9She shall give to your head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to you.Mike have to go but will answer your other questions soon, please can you now let me have a chance to ask you some basic questions to see what you believe???
I will answer your other questions first though.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2013,02:40) Also, I am not saying I preexisted. I don't know where you get half this stuff.
You keep saying that you are going to have the nature of a god like Jesus someday but now you say you didn't pre-exist your flesh so tell me how are you going to be like the theos who pre-existed His flesh if you didn't pre-exist your flesh.Are you going to be a god in the future or are you going to be a son of God in the future who is similar to a god?
t8
you said:Quote I am saying that the Word in God was brought forth to be with him. Did that 'Word' always exist within God before it was brought forth to be with Him? Are God's attributes as eternal as He is?
Was there ever a time when God lacked one or two or more of His attributes according to you?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2013,19:17) You keep saying that you are going to have the nature of a god like Jesus someday but now you say you didn't pre-exist your flesh so tell me how are you going to be like the theos who pre-existed His flesh if you didn't pre-exist your flesh.
He was the first. The prototype son. Not sure what number I am, but through him, we too can be born of God too.Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 27 2013,19:23) Did that 'Word' always exist within God before it was brought forth to be with Him? Are God's attributes as eternal as He is? Was there ever a time when God lacked one or two or more of His attributes according to you?
Wow, those are actually good questions.God's attributes have always been part of his character and nature. But these attributes do not exist as another because an attribute is not a being.
However, when God brings forth or begats another it is usually through another too because all but one was first. In my case it was through my mother and father, while my spirit comes from God.
But in the case of Christ, he was the first. So he wasn't created through anything. He came directly from God and it is this that makes him unique and it is this that makes him the head of man, while man is the head of the woman because the woman came from man you see.
God > Christ > Man > Woman
Is this truth not enough to honour who Jesus is? He is the oldest visible being in existence. Only he has seen the Father and only he can declare him. Because he is the only way to the Father, I myself declare that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 27 2013,11:02) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 22 2013,20:06) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2013,13:41) Hi Daniel, Do you know any Hebrew?
God bless
Ed J
Daniel?
Sorry about the delay Ed,I have a very limited understanding of hebrew.
To be honest even if someone has a degree in ancient hebrew I wouldn't take their comments seriously without investagating what they say against real bible scholars in ancient hebrew.
Over the last decade I have been involved in training a few university graduates in technical engineering roles and have been amazed with how little they have been taught in university.
So I compare bible translations that have been compiled by bible scholars and expert translators who really know ancient Hebrew.
When you compare 5 or more solid bible translations it becomes clear what the text is getting at.
Hi Daniel,Most of the modern English translations were
translated from corrupt Greek text; how will that help?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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