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Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,13:56) Hi Ed, I believe in an Eternal *Almighty Father* which demands that their is a Eternal Son of God.
This is what scripture says.Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.“I am not aware of a scripture that says that God has always been a father. Does such a scripture exist, anyone?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2013,14:25) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 19 2013,19:57) So the Father can't be referred to as the Lord saves or “YHWH saves”? That was a question to you not a statement.
Yeah, I was thinking it must be a question! 
NETNotes says:
Jesus = “Jehovah is salvation”
Joshua or Jehoshua = “Jehovah is salvation”Those names are given to people other than “Jehovah” as a testimony that the one who is named “Jehovah” is salvation. But the name of the person who actually is salvation remains “Jehovah”.
Daniel, what did God Almighty tell Moses His name was when Moses asked Him? “YHWH”? Or “Joshua”?
That would be the name the Father and Son are known as in the old testament. YHWHOr didn't the Father descend on a cloud and apss before Moses and talk with him?
Exodus 34:5-7
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”
If you doubt is the Sons name in the old testament?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 20 2013,16:13) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,13:56) Hi Ed, I believe in an Eternal *Almighty Father* which demands that their is a Eternal Son of God.
This is what scripture says.Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.“I am not aware of a scripture that says that God has always been a father. Does such a scripture exist, anyone?
Hi T8,Heb.5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;Peace brother..
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 19 2013,18:56) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2013,10:16) Hi Daniel, I ask merely for clarification (on my part) of your understanding of God.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed,I believe in an Eternal *Almighty Father* which demands that their is a Eternal Son of God.
This is Eternal generation and testifies of the Fathers power.
I *don't* believe the Father is static or stationary – I believe he is *eternally* Almighty.
How can the Father be eternally Almighty without a eternal testament of his eternal Almighty power?
The Father is eternally Creator, the Son derives his Nature Solely and Directly from his Fathers nature.
The Son is not the Father or another Father but the Fathers eternal testament of who and what he is.
The Father never needs to lift a finger as his Son is his testament and does all his work that needs to be completed.
This means not one star in the universe or one blade of grass in the field was created without his Son. (By whom all things are made.)
The Son is one with the Father as the Father is the Eternal Origin and source of the Son.
There is no eternal almighty God without a testament of who he is.
Ed and Mike can I please ask you both some questions now?
Daniel
Daniel,
I agree with what you said here…Amen! I'm glad you are here!!!Blessings,
KathiQuote (abe @ Mar. 20 2013,22:11) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 20 2013,16:13) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,13:56) Hi Ed, I believe in an Eternal *Almighty Father* which demands that their is a Eternal Son of God.
This is what scripture says.Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.“I am not aware of a scripture that says that God has always been a father. Does such a scripture exist, anyone?
Hi T8,Heb.5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;Peace brother..
Good post to clarify Heb 5:5. t8 has already been made aware that the word 'father' is not in the Greek text. It has been supplied as a paraphrase but it is not a literal translation.Heb 5:5
So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”;Quote (t8 @ Mar. 21 2013,11:13) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,13:56) Hi Ed, I believe in an Eternal *Almighty Father* which demands that their is a Eternal Son of God.
This is what scripture says.Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.“I am not aware of a scripture that says that God has always been a father. Does such a scripture exist, anyone?
Today I have become your Fatheror
Today I have begotten you
Regardless of how he is defined as becomming a *man* the Son is the Word (the expressed image and very substance of the Father). He is revealed as a Son in this since before the creation of heaven and earth.
Regarding calling the Father Origen explains things well. When we deny the Son we deny the Father.
ORIGEN
when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, ‘And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God.’ Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages, or anything else that can be so entitled.” (De Principiis 1:2:3)
Thanks Kathi
I must remember to *proof* read these posts before sending them.I started reading some posts on this site regarding Origen. Wanted to see if this was accurate so done some of my own reading.
Very *interestingly* he believes what you and I do.
That the Father is eternally Father.
This is common sense to those that haven't had the watchtower teachings forced on them.
You can't have something that is “Almighty of nothing” can you. How can you be Almighty without a testament of your Almighty power… and how can that have a beginning…
Origen explains things well. When we deny the Son we deny the Father.
ORIGEN
when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, ‘And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God.’ Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages, or anything else that can be so entitled.” (De Principiis 1:2:3)
in again ORIGEN explains
we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.” (De Principiis 1:2:4)
and earlier he writes (1:2:2)
And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but – what cannot be said of God without impiety – was unwilling to use it; both of which suppositions, it is patent to all, are alike absurd and impious: for they amount to this, either that God advanced from a condition of inability to one of ability, or that, although possessed of the power, He concealed it, and delayed the generation of Wisdom. Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.” (De Principiis 1:2:2)
Daniel,
You are welcome! You are right to proof the texts from the early church fathers that are put up here. Some are cut and pasted out of context and seem to say something that is not really being said in the full context. Thanks for your comments.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,20:01) Thanks Kathi
I must remember to *proof* read these posts before sending them.I started reading some posts on this site regarding Origen. Wanted to see if this was accurate so done some of my own reading.
Very *interestingly* he believes what you and I do.
That the Father is eternally Father.
This is common sense to those that haven't had the watchtower teachings forced on them.
You can't have something that is “Almighty of nothing” can you. How can you be Almighty without a testament of your Almighty power… and how can that have a beginning…
Origen explains things well. When we deny the Son we deny the Father.
ORIGEN
when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, ‘And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God.’ Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages, or anything else that can be so entitled.” (De Principiis 1:2:3)
in again ORIGEN explains
we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.” (De Principiis 1:2:4)
and earlier he writes (1:2:2)
And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but – what cannot be said of God without impiety – was unwilling to use it; both of which suppositions, it is patent to all, are alike absurd and impious: for they amount to this, either that God advanced from a condition of inability to one of ability, or that, although possessed of the power, He concealed it, and delayed the generation of Wisdom. Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.” (De Principiis 1:2:2)
Hi Daniel,And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but – what cannot be said of God without impiety – was unwilling to use it;
Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning,
Will you please explain this?
Peace brother..
Quote (abe @ Mar. 21 2013,19:22) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,20:01) Thanks Kathi
I must remember to *proof* read these posts before sending them.I started reading some posts on this site regarding Origen. Wanted to see if this was accurate so done some of my own reading.
Very *interestingly* he believes what you and I do.
That the Father is eternally Father.
This is common sense to those that haven't had the watchtower teachings forced on them.
You can't have something that is “Almighty of nothing” can you. How can you be Almighty without a testament of your Almighty power… and how can that have a beginning…
Origen explains things well. When we deny the Son we deny the Father.
ORIGEN
when defining God by a special definition to be the Word, ‘And God was the Word, and this was in the beginning with God.’ Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father, and had generated the Word, and had possessed wisdom in all preceding periods, whether they be called times or ages, or anything else that can be so entitled.” (De Principiis 1:2:3)
in again ORIGEN explains
we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.” (De Principiis 1:2:4)
and earlier he writes (1:2:2)
And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but – what cannot be said of God without impiety – was unwilling to use it; both of which suppositions, it is patent to all, are alike absurd and impious: for they amount to this, either that God advanced from a condition of inability to one of ability, or that, although possessed of the power, He concealed it, and delayed the generation of Wisdom. Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.” (De Principiis 1:2:2)
Hi Daniel,And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that He possessed the power indeed, but – what cannot be said of God without impiety – was unwilling to use it;
Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning,
Will you please explain this?
Peace brother..
Hi Abe,
He is eternally Almighty by his nature.He is the source of eternal wisdom and that wisdom is not static or hidden but eternally generated by his very substance that radiates it. His word is the expressed image of that wisdom.
Origen explains …
ORIGEN
so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.” (De Principiis 1:2:4)Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,21:02) That would be the name the Father and Son are known as in the old testament. YHWH
Which scripture tells us the Son of God is named YHWH in the OT?Also, I'm waiting for a response about Rev 3:12. Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of writing the name of his God on them, and ALSO his new name?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,22:01) ……Let him, then, who assigns a beginning to the Word or Wisdom of God, take care that he be not guilty of impiety against the unbegotten Father Himself, seeing he denies that He had always been a Father……….
Okay. So Origen believes the Father has ALWAYS BEEN a father. But I'm with t8 on this one. Which SCRIPTURE speaks of an “eternal FATHER”?I've recently found out that I agree with many things Origen said. But I know of no scriptural support to the claim I've quoted above. Do you?
Doesn't the word “son”, in and of itself, imply a beginning of existence?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,22:01) And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning……….
Proverbs 8:22 NET ©
The Lord created 1 me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.Here is footnote #1, from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET translation of the Bible:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.
Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”
Origen, like the early English translators, apparently does not like the idea that God CREATED wisdom – as if He didn't already possess wisdom. But as these scholars aptly point out, the idea of “appointed” in verse 23, and “given birth” and “born” in verses 24 and 25, argue strongly for a translation of “created” in verse 22.
If in fact Jesus is the “wisdom” mentioned in that Proverb, as I strongly believe, then JESUS was clearly created, but not “wisdom” in it's LITERAL sense.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 22 2013,13:18) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 20 2013,22:01) And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time, without having generated this Wisdom? Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning……….
Proverbs 8:22 NET ©
The Lord created 1 me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.Here is footnote #1, from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET translation of the Bible:
There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal.
Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”
Origen, like the early English translators, apparently does not like the idea that God CREATED wisdom – as if He didn't already possess wisdom. But as these scholars aptly point out, the idea of “appointed” in verse 23, and “given birth” and “born” in verses 24 and 25, argue strongly for a translation of “created” in verse 22.
If in fact Jesus is the “wisdom” mentioned in that Proverb, as I strongly believe, then JESUS was clearly created, but not “wisdom” in it's LITERAL sense.
Hi Mike,
Seems like its talking about Wisdom and its eternal according to scripture.Pro 8:12 I, WISDOM, dwell in counsel, and am present in learned thoughts.
regarding wisdom having a beginning
please read the next verse that you quoted from!Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made.
H5769עלם עולם‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, THE VANISHING POINT; generally TIME OUT OF MIND (past or future), that is, (practically) ETERNITY; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) ALWAYS: – ALWAYS (-S), ANCIENT (TIME), ANY MORE, CONTINUANCE, ETERNAL, (for, [n-]) EVER (-LASTING, -MORE, OF OLD), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), PERPETUAL, AT ANY TIME, (beginning of the) world (+ WITHOUT END). Compare H5331, H5703.and
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING[H5769 ôlâm] .
H5769עלם עולם‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, THE VANISHING POINT; generally TIME OUT OF MIND (past or future), that is, (practically) ETERNITY; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) ALWAYS: – ALWAYS (-S), ANCIENT (TIME), ANY MORE, CONTINUANCE, ETERNAL, (for, [n-]) EVER (-LASTING, -MORE, OF OLD), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), PERPETUAL, AT ANY TIME, (beginning of the) world (+ WITHOUT END). Compare H5331, H5703.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,17:02) That would be the name the Father and Son are known as in the old testament. YHWH Or didn't the Father descend on a cloud and apss before Moses and talk with him?
Exodus 34:5-7
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”
If you doubt is the Sons name in the old testament?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,17:02) Or didn't the Father descend on a cloud and apss before Moses and talk with him?
Is the Father an angel?Exodus 3:1-14
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Now look at 1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.It is pretty clear as to what is going on here.
God sent his angel, and spoke through the angel. And why would he do that. Probably because God is invisible, is not a finite dimensional being, does not have a body like us, and is so beyond us that he speaks through intermediaries, ambassadors, and primarily through the image of God and first born of all creation. So yes God speaks often through a bright cloud.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 22 2013,17:16) Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made.
4Thomas, We understand that before creation of the heavens (time and space) there was the Word that was with God. So yes he came from eternity. But that doesn't mean that he has always been.The Father was before Jesus no matter how you view this and Jesus was before creation.
And is that not the order we read of in scripture.
God > Christ > Man > Woman.
God > Word > CreationDid you not know that the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,15:32) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 22 2013,17:16) Pro 8:23 I WAS SET UP FROM ETERNITY [H5769 ôlâm ], and of old, before the earth was made.
4Thomas, We understand that before creation of the heavens (time and space) there was the Word that was with God. So yes he came from eternity. But that doesn't mean that he has always been.The Father was before Jesus no matter how you view this and Jesus was before creation.
And is that not the order we read of in scripture.
God > Christ > Man > Woman.
God > Word > CreationDid you not know that the head of the woman is the man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God?
Yes and a man and women are equal even if the man has more authority.But great scripture, as we are made in his image, male and female he created them in his image.
God said let **us** (plural) make man in our image.
Clearly the Father, Word and BreathJust as scripture teaches that the heavens and all that are in them are created by his the Word and his breath.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 22 2013,15:27) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,17:02) That would be the name the Father and Son are known as in the old testament. YHWH Or didn't the Father descend on a cloud and apss before Moses and talk with him?
Exodus 34:5-7
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”
If you doubt is the Sons name in the old testament?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 21 2013,17:02) Or didn't the Father descend on a cloud and apss before Moses and talk with him?
Is the Father an angel?Exodus 3:1-14
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.Now look at 1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.It is pretty clear as to what is going on here.
God sent his angel, and spoke through the angel. And why would he do that. Probably because God is invisible, is not a finite dimensional being, does not have a body like us, and is so beyond us that he speaks through intermediaries, ambassadors, and primarily through the image of God and first born of all creation. So yes God speaks often through a bright cloud.
Exo 20:22 And the LORD [YAHWEH] said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, YE HAVE SEEN THAT I HAVE TALKED WITH YOU FROM HEAVEN.Exo 33:11 And the LORD [YAHWEH] spake UNTO MOSES FACE TO FACE, AS A MAN SPEAKETH UNTO HIS FRIEND. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Deu 5:4 The LORD [YAHWEH] TALKED WITH YOU FACE TO FACE in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
Num 14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD [Yahweh] art SEEN FACE TO FACE, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
T8 do you know what the Son was before he became flesh?
Has the Father revealed this to you?
The Word made flesh declares the following
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”**So only the Father knows the Son** What does the Father reveal
John 5:37
37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.Please read this very carefully in context.
John 5:37-47
New International Version (NIV)
37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[a] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”It is Yahweh the Word that is seen.
Exo 34:5 And the LORD [YAHWEH] descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD [YAHWEH].
Exo 34:6 And the LORD [YAHWEH] passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD [YAHWEH], The LORD [YHWH] God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,Now does the Father descend in a cloud stand before Moses then pass before him and proclaim his OWN SELF. Surely it’s quite simple to release that it is the Son that declares the Father.
Moses indeed wrote about the Word YHWH as seen him and spoke with him.Do you realize in the old testament every time God says see that I am alone that his Son (the Word) is revealed.
I will be away for a while T8 but will be interested to know what you think the Son is before he was made flesh.
I am sure you don’t think its Michael the Angel or any other creature Angel?If you are in the truth you should know who the person is who shed his blood to save you from your sins? That being the Word before he was made flesh,
The question is – What *substance* / *nature* is the word? God, angel etc
I am not trying to be smart, I want you to have a relationship with the Word as he is the only way to the Father – I worry that those who deny him will be denied by his Father in heaven.
Daniel
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 22 2013,19:23) Yes and a man and women are equal even if the man has more authority. But great scripture, as we are made in his image, male and female he created them in his image.
God said let **us** (plural) make man in our image.
Clearly the Father, Word and BreathJust as scripture teaches that the heavens and all that are in them are created by his the Word and his breath.
Here is the us.John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.God and the Word. God's breath is likely not a him or part of us.
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