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Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,17:54) If Jesus is not the Fathers name why would Jesus say he comes in the Father name but *more* importantly if Jesus is not the Fathers name who is the ever lasting Father here?
Very simple. He came in that name does not imply that is his name.If a policeman arrests you in the name of the law, then that is not his literal name, but that is the name of the authority that he has and invokes. Likewise with Jesus.
So when we do all in the name of Jesus Christ, that does not imply that we are Jesus, but that it is this name that we are under and the authority that we invoke.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,10:23) Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life…” 
Not sure what you are getting at here, but I suspect that you are using this to promote false teaching.So here is the context regarding the life that Jesus has.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has GRANTED the Son to have life in himself.
So Jesus was granted this life and he gives that life to whomever.
Thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2013,15:09) So Jesus was granted this life and he gives that life to whomever.
He even granted the disciples to have life in themselves. And Samuel. And Elijah. And Elisha.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) With all respect for the name Jehovah, where in the new testament can I find the name Jehovah?
In the oldest known fragments of the NT ever found. Let me know if you want to read about them, and how they contain the name “YHWH” in Hebrew letters mixed into the Greek text.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) Jesus is the name of the Father.
Who told you this? You certainly didn't learn such a thing from the scriptures.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) The Son comes in his Fathers name……
That right there should tell you they have different names.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) …the Spirit of Truth is then sent in the Sons name which is obviously Jesus.
Agreed.John 14:26 NASB ©
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.But tell me how this says the Father's name is “Jesus” – when the context is clear that Jesus is someone other than the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) This is why we are baptized in Jesus name.
1 Corinthians 10:2
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.Does that mean the Father's name is “Moses”?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) if Jesus is not the Fathers name who is the ever lasting Father here? New International Version (©1984)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This is from NETNotes, found here.This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.
I can also offer you other scriptures, where the King of Israel calls Elisha “my father”, and where Elisha calls Elijah “my father”.
The word was used in Hebrew culture to refer to a protector, or “father figure”, if you will. And Jesus is for sure our “everlasting protector”, right? But like the 25 Trinitarian scholars from NETNotes pointed out, this use of the word “father” does not equate the Son with the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) And the wonderful counselor, the Holy spirit is also called Jesus……..
You'll need to show me that scripture, because the one you posted doesn't call the Holy Spirit “Jesus”.If I sent t8 to you in my name, does that mean t8 is now named “mikeboll64”? Of course not. I believe you are misunderstanding the phrase “in my name”.
Nice chat, 4T. I'm sure we'll have some more.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 05 2013,23:00) we have to work to increase that love for the life giver ,our father and our God
Sounds right.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 07 2013,08:05) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,17:54) If Jesus is not the Fathers name why would Jesus say he comes in the Father name but *more* importantly if Jesus is not the Fathers name who is the ever lasting Father here?
Very simple. He came in that name does not imply that is his name.If a policeman arrests you in the name of the law, then that is not his literal name, but that is the name of the authority that he has and invokes. Likewise with Jesus.
So when we do all in the name of Jesus Christ, that does not imply that we are Jesus, but that it is this name that we are under and the authority that we invoke.
Yes you can that point to some scriptures but then you have to address other scriptures that explicitly declare that the Father has given his name to his Son.“Protect by the power of your name Father”
“the name you gave to me”John 17:11
New International Version (©1984)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.John 17:12
New International Version (©1984)
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.There is no name higher than the name of Jesus
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,English Standard Version (©2001)
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,New International Version (©1984)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Does everyone agree Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus name?
If so why would the Son be called the *Everlasting Father*? Unless it was also the Father's name?
Why would scripture reveal that there is no other name higher than the name of Jesus?
Why would scripture say we should be baptized in the name of Jesus and then say we should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2013,09:15) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) With all respect for the name Jehovah, where in the new testament can I find the name Jehovah?
In the oldest known fragments of the NT ever found. Let me know if you want to read about them, and how they contain the name “YHWH” in Hebrew letters mixed into the Greek text.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) Jesus is the name of the Father.
Who told you this? You certainly didn't learn such a thing from the scriptures.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) The Son comes in his Fathers name……
That right there should tell you they have different names.Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) …the Spirit of Truth is then sent in the Sons name which is obviously Jesus.
Agreed.John 14:26 NASB ©
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.But tell me how this says the Father's name is “Jesus” – when the context is clear that Jesus is someone other than the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) This is why we are baptized in Jesus name.
1 Corinthians 10:2
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.Does that mean the Father's name is “Moses”?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) if Jesus is not the Fathers name who is the ever lasting Father here? New International Version (©1984)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This is from NETNotes, found here.This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the “Son” is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the “Father.”) Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of “father” see Isa 22:21 and Job 29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of “father” is not limited to the Bible.
I can also offer you other scriptures, where the King of Israel calls Elisha “my father”, and where Elisha calls Elijah “my father”.
The word was used in Hebrew culture to refer to a protector, or “father figure”, if you will. And Jesus is for sure our “everlasting protector”, right? But like the 25 Trinitarian scholars from NETNotes pointed out, this use of the word “father” does not equate the Son with the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) And the wonderful counselor, the Holy spirit is also called Jesus……..
You'll need to show me that scripture, because the one you posted doesn't call the Holy Spirit “Jesus”.If I sent t8 to you in my name, does that mean t8 is now named “mikeboll64”? Of course not. I believe you are misunderstanding the phrase “in my name”.
Nice chat, 4T. I'm sure we'll have some more.
peace,
mike
Just seen your post Mike,
Sorry but don't have time to reply to it today (lunch break over)
But please see my other post which I believe proves the Father gave his Son his name.Peace to you too.
DanielQuote (4Thomas @ Mar. 07 2013,10:00) New International Version (©1984)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Does everyone agree Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus name?
If so why would the Son be called the *Everlasting Father*? Unless it was also the Father's name?
Why would scripture reveal that there is no other name higher than the name of Jesus?
Why would scripture say we should be baptized in the name of Jesus and then say we should be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
Hi Daniel, welcome to H-net!They both mean the same, and here's how…
Go
ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name ofthe Father (“YÄ-hä-vā”),
and of the Son (“YA-shu-a”),
and of the HolySirit (“The Word”):(Matt 28:19)…hey it fits, doesn't it?
AND BAPTIZING IN THE NAME OF JESUS MEANS EXACTLY THE SAME!
Jesus’ Name in Hebrew יהשוע means: “YÄ is salvation” ([יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]).
“The Savior”(117) is “God The Father”(117) (Isaiah 45:21),
YHVH saves us with his spirit through his son!The name Father is [יה] YÄ,
the name of the son is [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă,
and the name of HolySpirit is [ישע] “SALVATION”!“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell
in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken
your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (Romans 8:11)Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2013,16:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 07 2013,10:23) Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life…”
Not sure what you are getting at here, but I suspect that you are using this to promote false teaching.So here is the context regarding the life that Jesus has.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has GRANTED the Son to have life in himself.
So Jesus was granted this life and he gives that life to whomever.
Thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.t8, you bring the spirit of the accuser of the brethren to life for me. You have brought many scriptures in Proverbs to life for me also but I wouldn't be patting myself on the back if I were you.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 07 2013,10:10) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) …the Spirit of Truth is then sent in the Sons name which is obviously Jesus.
Agreed.John 14:26 NASB ©
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.But tell me how this says the Father's name is “Jesus” – when the context is clear that Jesus is someone other than the Father.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 05 2013,21:54) This is why we are baptized in Jesus name.
1 Corinthians 10:2
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.Does that mean the Father's name is “Moses”?
Does that mean the Father's name is “Moses”?
No it says nothing about a name here its talking about Moses“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
It says here that the Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus name (Jesus is the one who is talking)
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 07 2013,16:48) It says here that the Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus name (Jesus is the one who is talking)
Hi Daniel,Our salvation is wrought by God's
“HolySpirit” through Jesus Christ.
Please understand Jesus' name:Jesus’ Name in Hebrew יהשוע means:
“YÄ is salvation” ([יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]).YHVH saves us with his spirit through his son!
“The Savior” is “God The Father” (Isaiah 45:21)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,16:31) John 17:11
New International Version (©1984)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.
Hi Daniel,Did you read the green information I posted about “father” being used metaphorically in scripture, with a meaning of “protector”?
That explains how Jesus is called “everlasting father” without it meaning he is “THE Father God”.
As for John 17:11, try these translations:
NKJV ©
Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are .MSG ©
Holy Father, guard them as they pursue this life That you conferred as a gift through me, So they can be one heart and mind.The words can apparently refer to a name which the Father had given to Jesus; or it can refer to “those” whom the Father had given to Jesus………… the ones Jesus mentioned in verse 6.
Also consider that the nation of Israel was also called by Jehovah's name. (Deut 28:10)
There is no way a sensible person can conclude that Jesus IS Jehovah from this verse, IMO.
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,16:31) There is no name higher than the name of Jesus New International Version (©1984)
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
It stands to reason that the One with the power to EXALT Jesus, and GIVE him the name above all other names would not be included in the group of people who have “lesser” names than Jesus.1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.What Paul went out of his way to explain in the verse above should just be simple common sense. I believe the same common sense should apply Philippians 2:9, that you quoted. Don't you?
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,23:48) It says here that the Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus name (Jesus is the one who is talking)
That is correct.I'm still not seeing how you are using this verse to equate Jesus with our God and his God.
In fact, let me cut to the chase, Daniel:
John 20:17
Jesus said…….. “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”Who do you suppose Jesus meant by “my Father” and “my God” in that statement?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,13:27) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,16:31) John 17:11
New International Version (©1984)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.
Hi Daniel,Did you read the green information I posted about “father” being used metaphorically in scripture, with a meaning of “protector”?
That explains how Jesus is called “everlasting father” without it meaning he is “THE Father God”.
As for John 17:11, try these translations:
NKJV ©
Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are .MSG ©
Holy Father, guard them as they pursue this life That you conferred as a gift through me, So they can be one heart and mind.The words can apparently refer to a name which the Father had given to Jesus; or it can refer to “those” whom the Father had given to Jesus………… the ones Jesus mentioned in verse 6.
Also consider that the nation of Israel was also called by Jehovah's name. (Deut 28:10)
There is no way a sensible person can conclude that Jesus IS Jehovah from this verse, IMO.
Hi Mike,Read the foot notes for the NKJV
NKJV
John 17:11 NU-Text and M-Text read keep them through Your name which You have given Me.NU – stands for Netsle-Aland Greek New Testament /United Bible Society. These are texts based on the oldest, but not the most numerous ancient manuscripts.
M – Masoretic Text – Traditional text of the Old Testament. Often compared to the LXX (Septuagint, which is the Greek version of the Old Testament.)
So its a very poor translation of this verse -you probably where not aware of this as it untruthful to use this translation. The message translation should not be used to study explicit word meanings for obvious reasons.
New International Version (©1984)
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one.New Living Translation (©2007)
Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, you have given me your name; now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.English Standard Version (©2001)
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name that You have given Me, so that they may be one as We are one.International Standard Version (©2012)
I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by your Name, the Name that you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“From now on, I do not dwell in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to join you. Holy Father, keep them in your Name- that Name which you have given me, so that they shall be one, just as we are.”GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I won't be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I'm coming back to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave me, so that their unity may be like ours.You get the point? if you still won't believe then you have the other massive issues that you have not addressed, like we baptize in Jesus name.
Scripture teaches this and it also teaches us to baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Sorry no time until monday lunch time
Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 08 2013,23:50) You get the point? if you still won't believe then you have the other massive issues that you have not addressed, like we baptize in Jesus name.
Scripture teaches this and it also teaches us to baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Yes, I believe I get the point. It seems like you are saying that the OLDEST mss have “keep in your name THOSE you have given me”, and the more recent mss have “keep in your name THAT you have given me”. But aren't the OLDEST mss usually considered the best?I will be happy to address your “massive issues” until the cows come home. After all, that is why I'm here in the first place – to discuss the massive issues in the scriptures.
But let's work out this “name” thing first.
What is your current understanding about God? Do you believe God consists of a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Do you believe Jesus IS the Father?
Clue me in………… BRIEFLY.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 10 2013,17:01) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 08 2013,23:50) You get the point? if you still won't believe then you have the other massive issues that you have not addressed, like we baptize in Jesus name.
Scripture teaches this and it also teaches us to baptise in the name (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Yes, I believe I get the point. It seems like you are saying that the OLDEST mss have “keep in your name THOSE you have given me”, and the more recent mss have “keep in your name THAT you have given me”. But aren't the OLDEST mss usually considered the best?I will be happy to address your “massive issues” until the cows come home. After all, that is why I'm here in the first place – to discuss the massive issues in the scriptures.
But let's work out this “name” thing first.
What is your current understanding about God? Do you believe God consists of a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Do you believe Jesus IS the Father?
Clue me in………… BRIEFLY.
Hi Mike,
Sorry you missed it, you got it around the wrong way, please read the NKJV footnotes as they are different to whats in the NKJV txt, did you see all the other accurate translations which use the oldest translations for this verse.This is what I have posted before and this is what I believe,the father is eternal so the Son is eternal, this is eternal generation which declares the Father Almighty power. Light from light, true God from true God.
The Father is the source of all including his Son. There is only one origin that is the Father.
Yet the Father is eternally Father and is unchanging.
The Son testifies of the Fathers almighty power as the Father is eternally almighty before time or before anything was ever created.
The Son is the testimony of the Father.
This is why the Father never needs to create anything without his Son (word) or spirit (breath)
If we say the Father was not eternally Father, when did our unchanging God become a Father?
Nothing whatsoever reveals the Fathers Almighty power other than his most beautiful Son truly the eternal display of the Fathers eternal creation and how magnificent he is.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2013,13:39) Quote (4Thomas @ Mar. 06 2013,23:48) It says here that the Father will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus name (Jesus is the one who is talking)
That is correct.I'm still not seeing how you are using this verse to equate Jesus with our God and his God.
In fact, let me cut to the chase, Daniel:
John 20:17
Jesus said…….. “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”Who do you suppose Jesus meant by “my Father” and “my God” in that statement?
Totally agree and so very thankful for it also.The Eternal Son became *man*
Meaning his Father became his God -so- his Father could become *our* Father so -we- could become adopted Sons of God.Where is Jesus Christ in the old testament and what is his name?
Where is the name Jehovah in the new testament?
Mike, Jesus became a man for our sake so would appreciate if we looked at *what* Jesus was before he become a man instead of looking at the word made flesh. Hope this is ok with you.
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